Working in live enclosures

[industryspark]

TPN switchfuse bolted onto a busbar chamber. Bottom half (supply terminals) live and covered by the manufacturer fitted shield. Cables to be connected to the top load terminals. Some sparks i know would happily work on the top terminals even though the enclosure houses live, albiet shielded terminals.............opinions?

Regards

 

[7029 dave]

HV gloves, over gloves, face visor, no probs.

 

[GMES]

Im sure there are many guys who've worked in live boards and enclosures ect, we've all done it to some extent. Im not inferring anyone is wrong or right. I was merely questioning the validity of doing so when we consider EAWR, namely the paragraph that Andy copied and pasted. Its a little bit of a grey area in terms of how close is close to live terminals. What we must also consider is the individual situation, i.e working in a TPN switchfuse with live incoming terminals could be very different to a domestic CU in terms of PFC PSSC ect. Also, manufactueres instructions stating boards or switches are suitable for drawing in cables whilst the board is live would be evidence of equipments suitability to do so.

I would suggest certainly some of the things on the thread that sparks have done have certainly contravened EAWR, i.e attaching mccb's onto a live busbar because the owner of the factory didnt want you to knock power off. My personal view is that there are very very few circumstances where it is unreasonable to isolate the supply hence this should be done to preserve someone's safety over inconvenience.

Industryspark that is where I have to disagree, there are not many factories that will allow you to shut down an entire place just to fit a moulded case circuit breaker.

 

[Carlosfandango]

Ha ha nut!

was that cambuslang you done your FICA? I done mine around nine years ago and there were was none of that going on. Would hedge my bets and say that no one out with the training and test centres would go to this extreme.

"Hang on lad's I'll get ma sheet oot!"

Yeah Cambuslang. Thing is they'll fail you if you don't put it up. Or at least not let you continue!!

 

[industryspark]

GMES

Totally agree, there probably aren't many factories that will allow you to shut down a DB to fit a new mccb, id question whether they were being reasonable though and whether they could claim that they were within the EAWR's should anything happen.

Regards

 

[GMES]

GMES

Totally agree, there probably aren't many factories that will allow you to shut down a DB to fit a new mccb, id question whether they were being reasonable though and whether they could claim that they were within the EAWR's should anything happen.

Regards

Are you self employed or with a firm!

 

[industryspark]

neither at the minute!

 

[Knobhead]

Now now Tony, play nicely. Im after thoughts on the matter, not wisecracks.

Wisecracks? It’s a statement of fact.

I wouldn’t employ you if you're afraid to connect in to a switch.

 

[shanky887614]

Wisecracks? It’s a statement of fact.

I wouldn’t employ you if you're afraid to connect in to a switch.

wisecracks ?

i only do this to people i dont like

 

[Simonslimline]

wisecracks ?

i only do this to people i dont like

Why is it that every image you post does not show up? Or is it just me that can't see it?

 

[trev]

I can't see em either, I think he's pasting as plain text instead of pasting the link

 

[shanky887614]

Why is it that every image you post does not show up? Or is it just me that can't see it? [emoji2]

can you see it now?

 

[trev]

Better

 

[shanky887614]

I can't see em either, I think he's pasting as plain text instead of pasting the link

the thing is though i can see them? when i do them through tapa you can see them.

wierd

 

[Simonslimline]

can you see it now?

Yes that's working now.

 

[trev]

I binned tapatalk, I didn't see the point of it.

 

[shanky887614]

I binned tapatalk, I didn't see the point of it.

i use it on phone and it works well, im on a couple other forums and it alerts me with pop-up's when there are replies on threads

 

[Knobhead]

Are you self employed or with a firm!

neither at the minute!

I wonder why?

 

[Marvo]

Fair point. Would you be happy enough carrying out a ZE on a non ip2x main switch on a mech services panel or old style db? Still a risk in my eyes

It's a sad day when electricians can't do live tests. Anything electrical carries risks, it's the job to assess, understand and manage the risks accordingly.

We work live regularly, part of the job. Competence, risk assessment and appropriate PPE are the 3 things we require.

 

[Bobster]

If your suitably trained and competent I wouldn't even think twice about working in a partially live panel.

Electricity isnt something to be feared, just show it the respect it deserves.

 

[bigdavs83]

Sad day indeed marvo. Not once did I mention that I didn't. In fact if you look back you'll see my earlier posts about working in live d.b's. I was merely (poorly?!) trying to make a point that in most not all but most times we enter a board or a panel there is a presence of live cables. As has been said correct precautions and ppe must be risk assessed to the exact standard the job requires.

 

[Marvo]

Apologies Bigdavs, I misunderstood in that case by thinking you were suggesting live testing as being too risky.

 

[bigdavs83]

No harm marvo.

 

[easyfix]

dont see the problem here , any electrician should be qualified enough to conduct this works in a safe manor

 

[Engineer54]

Wow, things must have changed beyond all recognition on the industrial side of things if an electrician is now worried about working on and connecting cables to the isolated side of a TP+N switch fuse.

As for shutting down a factory process plant to do so, ....do me a favour!!

 

[Knobhead]

They’ve not changed that much. Some of us tried to keep the wheels of industry turning.

As I said, we’d sack the OP if he even suggested shutting a part of the plant down because he is worried about making connections in a live panel. He would be of no use to us what so ever.

 

[Pete999]

I know we're not meant to work live, but surely we're electricians and we're Trained to work with electricity! As long as you respect it and be careful! That's my view and I'll continue to do it!

That will be until someone is injured and the HSE are all over you like a rash asking you why you worked live

 

[Pete999]

This has me wondering why we all have insulated drivers etc.?:smilewinkgrin:

Cause they look pretty in your new veto Pro Pac tool tote, not like the Plumber's with rust spanners and bits of wire wool every where, seriously when you check terminals for tightness is one good reason

 

[Pete999]

It's a sad day when electricians can't do live tests. Anything electrical carries risks, it's the job to assess, understand and manage the risks accordingly.

We work live regularly, part of the job. Competence, risk assessment and appropriate PPE are the 3 things we require.

What he said

 

[telectrix]

can't see what all the fuss is about. next thing we know is HSE will be banning us from driving if the engine is running.

 

[Pete999]

can't see what all the fuss is about. next thing we know is HSE will be banning us from driving if the engine is running.

You know what would happen if someone got injured working live when it should have been made safe Tel, tickets pulled etc you know it

 

[Engineer54]

You know what would happen if someone got injured working live when it should have been made safe Tel, tickets pulled etc you know it

HSE are one of the reasons manufacturers in the UK can't compete with overseas companies!! It's become almost a ''Nanny' State'' (like Singapore) to the these holier than thou haven't got a clue faceless ----ers!!

 

[Lucien Nunes]

The HSE are actually fairly sensible, it's more the consultants, H&S managers and insurers that tend to bug me, adding extra requirements and limitations beyond what the HSE consider reasonable. E.g, the HSE haven't banned ladders, their guidance is to find alternatives wherever possible. But some sites ban them altogether, even in situations where the risk is low and exposure short.

My take: Focus on major hazards. Wire outgoing circuit live, unless SF has inadequate guarding. Bank the time saved for when you do need to take steps to make something safe, such as attaching a new set of tails to the busbar.

 

[Andy78]

I was just going say before Lucien did.... I have heard the phrases "It's company policy" or "it's for the insurance" a lot more than "It's required under the health and safety at work act" when ridiculously convoluted working practices have been questioned.

 

[Engineer54]

The HSE are actually fairly sensible, it's more the consultants, H&S managers and insurers that tend to bug me, adding extra requirements and limitations beyond what the HSE consider reasonable. E.g, the HSE haven't banned ladders, their guidance is to find alternatives wherever possible. But some sites ban them altogether, even in situations where the risk is low and exposure short.

My take: Focus on major hazards. Wire outgoing circuit live, unless SF has inadequate guarding. Bank the time saved for when you do need to take steps to make something safe, such as attaching a new set of tails to the busbar.

Unfortunately these are the people that companies have to deal with on a day to day basis... And why overseas contractors (including the British company's) will not employ British H&S officers, they are just too much trouble to have on board.

 

[Badged01]

........, it's more the consultants, H&S managers and insurers that tend to bug me, adding extra requirements and limitations beyond what the HSE consider reasonable......

Think they're know as the jobs worth mob! Bit like grenades, they pop up every now and again, explode over something and leave you to sort out the mess. No comeback on them. Suppose they have to justify themselves somehow.....

 

[snowhead]

can't see what all the fuss is about. next thing we know is HSE will be banning us from driving if the engine is running.

If HSE had any jurisdiction on transport, there wouldn't be a single vehicle on the road.

Unguarded machinery under the control of poorly trained operatives covers it.

 

[Knobhead]

That will be until someone is injured and the HSE are all over you like a rash asking you why you worked live

We had a guy badly burnt by arc flash, they didn’t get involved. Surprising I know but it saved us a lot of hassle and paperwork.

 

[shanky887614]

We had a guy badly burnt by arc flash, they didn’t get involved. Surprising I know but it saved us a lot of hassle and paperwork.

i thought the hse only really got involved if there was a death, someone suing the company or enviromental hazard rtc

i got a nice scar on my hand, when i cut it then accepted all blame in paperwork e.g accident book etc (filled it in only because boss was ****ing me off over it)

so he got an earful and a lot of emails etc, if he didnt moan etc it would of been a case of take more care next time and carry on.

 

[Bobster]

i thought the hse only really got involved if there was a death, someone suing the company or enviromental hazard rtc

They can get involved for any reason they like, although as you say they only really step in if it's serious.

 

[Pete999]

We had a guy badly burnt by arc flash, they didn’t get involved. Surprising I know but it saved us a lot of hassle and paperwork.

I once committed the cardinal sin of issuing 2 permits to work on the same LV system nearly blinded a jointer. so I don't take chances anymore, it was a humbling experience HSE all over me APs ticket revoked for 6 months.nearly causing someone else to be killed brings safety into perspective. been there done that got the T shirt never again.