Working on live distribution boards?

[Davehaywire]

Can anyone tell me if I'm asked to work on a live db be it TP or SP lv ,by my employer,as I have done for many many years in cases where the board cannot be isolated for various reasons.
if for some reason I'm electrocuted and I have a hot works permit or not, should my employers insurance cover me for injury,death,loss of work, or should I have my own insurance.
can you get insurance for hot works or not?
i have wondered about this for a while, I have a family now, so if for some reason the worst scenario happens,what happens? What can I or my employer do to cover for this?
can any1 enlighten me

 

[D Skelton]

but live working WAS part and parcel of being an electrician in my industrial working days.

Still illegal though

 

[Engineer54]

ok, working live is alright if ur employer says "u cant turn that off, production will stop and weve got orders to get out" hmm.
and this off the worlds greatest BUT not the safest engineer.
fill ur boots.

is it hot in here,hahaha.

You're showing you're ''Very Young'' age again. You really do need to grow up, to match those 30 doggy years experience you say you have!!

 

[Hawkmoon]

Work on or near live conductors

14. No person shall be engaged in any work activity on or so near any live conductor (other than one suitably covered with insulating material so as to prevent danger) that danger may arise unless–

(a)it is unreasonable in all the circumstances for it to be dead; and

(b)it is reasonable in all the circumstances for him to be at work on or near it while it is live; and

(c)suitable precautions (including where necessary the provision of suitable protective equipment) are taken to prevent injury.

section from EAWR on live working.

I suppose there will always be disagreement on the definition of 'reasonable' and 'unreasonable'

 

[Guest111]

I'm stating the facts from actual experience, as i said, no idea about what goes on now, but live working WAS part and parcel of being an electrician in my industrial working days. I'm not saying that every precaution wasn't in place before any such work was undertaken, ...it was!!

In all the time i was with that company and it was a BIG company, i never heard of a single incident of injury or death of electrical crews live working across the 7 factories on that site, or from the any of the other plants in the UK. Considering that live working was being carried out routinely on a weekly if not daily basis, something must of changed !! lol!! Oh and the same was going on in plants in Germany and Belgium. I know because i was seconded to both plants on more than a few occasions...

Then again Industrial training and facilities was first class in those days, nothing like the slap dash, make-up and make do it seems to be today in the UK....

Maybe the training in modern day is different from years ago,time was when you worked live and nobody batted an eyelid,today just mentioning it makes people start screaming! However I agree with Mr Skelton that there is a big difference between choosing to work live and being told you MUST do it live. this topic is a bit like pulling fuses,yes we all know it shouldn't be done but a lot of us will have done it at one time or another,however I am also equally sure that there have been fuses that we have met which we would not pull (cracked,broken porcelain etc) same with working live,you may have done the same thing dozens of times but every so often you get one and your experience and instinct tells you to kill it.That's were it all either comes good or falls apart,knowing when it's safe to work live and when it isn't.
The other day I was at my old mans place,now he worked in industry all his life,seen allsorts,however he's never seen me work,well he wanted a socket changed so I said I'd sort it.He gave me the new one and went of to get something,he came back a couple of minutes later just as I was screwing it to the backbox,he was amazed that I'd changed it live,something he'd never do and quite rightly so,but I explained to him that for a properly trained spark it was no big deal,he thinks I'm a bit crazy but he's proud that his lad got a proper trade. lol

 

[Engineer54]

Still illegal though

Obviously not to the company safety officers of the time.... Now with the hoops and loops HSE impose on UK industry, ...i haven't a clue??

 

[pepparz]

You're showing you're ''Very Young'' age again. You really do need to grow up, to match those 30 doggy years experience you say you have!!

Oh dear its come to slagging off has it. Speaks volumes

 

[Guest111]

now then chaps lets not fall out,lets just agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Pete999]

All this chit chat about I do and I don't, I will and I won't work live, I wonder how many of the pro working live faction have actually seen an accident when someone worked live, or been on the receiving end of an investigation by the HSE/

I have, it aint funny, lost my APs ticket for 6 months, nearly lost my job, more importantly nearly killed myself and the chap I was working with, won;t do it again EVER for any reason

 

[D Skelton]

Obviously not to the company safety officers of the time.... Now with the hoops and loops HSE impose on UK industry, ...i haven't a clue??

I'm not disagreeing with you, just answering the OP. Live working is illegal, working live is stupid, but sometimes as you say, needs must, just make sure you take all reasonable safety precautions and never agree to work live on someone elses say so!

You wanna do it it is a choice only you have to make, knowing full well that if you end up dead, your widow unless already rich, will struggle to feed the kids.

I'm neither condoning or condemning those who choose to do it, but they must be in possession of all the facts and be aware of all the risks before they do.

 

[Guest111]

All this chit chat about I do and I don't, I will and I won't work live, I wonder how many of the pro working live faction have actually seen an accident when someone worked live, or been on the receiving end of an investigation by the HSE/

I have, it aint funny, lost my APs ticket for 6 months, nearly lost my job, more importantly nearly killed myself and the chap I was working with, won;t do it again EVER for any reason

yes I had an incident some years ago,a flashover,resulted in no eyebrows and superficial burns to face arm and hand,with hindsight that job should have been done with power off,however to be fair that was due to me becoming complacent and hurrying at the end of a long week,an error of judgement rather than lack of skill.

 

[shanky887614]

I'm not disagreeing with you, just answering the OP. Live working is illegal, working live is stupid, but sometimes as you say, needs must, just make sure you take all reasonable safety precautions and never agree to work live on someone elses say so!

You wanna do it it is a choice only you have to make, knowing full well that if you end up dead, your widow unless already rich, will struggle to feed the kids.

I'm neither condoning or condemning those who choose to do it, but they must be in possession of all the facts and be aware of all the risks before they do.

EAWR1989 clearly states under regulation 14

Regulation 14 requires that such 'live' working only occurs when it is unavoidable, and after suitable protective equipment has been provided.

Can you post evidence to prove it is ilegeal (if you can).

You might as well run to the top of the nearest hill and scream at the top of your lungs

THAT THERE ELECTRICITY IS EVIL!!!

 

[telectrix]

IMO, it's down to common sense and a personal risk assessment. if i consider it safe, then i'll do it. if in doubt, isolate and lock off.

 

[D Skelton]

EAWR1989 clearly states under regulation 14

Regulation 14 requires that such 'live' working only occurs when it is unavoidable, and after suitable protective equipment has been provided.

Can you post evidence to prove it is ilegeal (if you can).

You might as well run to the top of the nearest hill and scream at the top of your lungs

THAT THERE ELECTRICITY IS EVIL!!!

I think I will quote what I said in an earlier post:

working live is illegal in 99.99% of cases

You're right, it isn't illegal 100% of the time.

 

[shanky887614]

I think I will quote what I said in an earlier post:



You're right, it isn't illegal 100% of the time.

Where does it state that working live is ilegal?

What regulations does it come under?

This is an opinion not a fact right skelton?

 

[telectrix]

EAWR is quite clear. live working should only be undertaken if it is unreasonable to switch off.

 

[Guest55]

define "illegal" ?

illegal as in a criminal act ?

and how can it be illegal 99% of the time yet ok for 1% ?
law simply doesnt work like that.

i'd change your wording to "ill-advised" as it has been already noted that the EAWR doesnt confer with your claim.

 

[Hawkmoon]

If you are in contravention of the regulation, for example you work on live equipment when it is avoidable, then presumably you have broken the law...no?

 

[pennywise]

I'll just hand myself in at the local police station now

 

[D Skelton]

Where does it state that working live is ilegal?

What regulations does it come under?

This is an opinion not a fact right skelton?

If you break a statutory regulation you break the law chap. If you carry out live work when not absolutely neccessary (which will only be the case in a fraction of situations) then you are in breach of the EAWRs.

You just can't help yourself from being an argumentative little so and so can you?

 

[Pete999]

EAWRegs is a legal document, going against a legal document is ummm against the law

 

[Guest111]

If you are in contravention of the regulation, for example you work on live equipment when it is avoidable, then presumably you have broken the law...no?

I think it's a bit like speeding,only illegal if you get caught.

 

[telectrix]

what should be made illegal is that synthetic beer in bean cans, creamflow.

 

[Silly Sausage]

If you are in contravention of the regulation, for example you work on live equipment when it is avoidable, then presumably you have broken the law...no?

EAWR1989 clearly states under regulation 14

Regulation 14 requires that such 'live' working only occurs when it is unavoidable, and after suitable protective equipment has been provided.

This why we have Lawyers!

Also, how much are you prepared to pay one to do their Law jiggery pokery in court to get you off?
(were the case ever arise!)

 

[Hawkmoon]

Seem to be going off track a bit - I thought the question was not if you're going to jail, but 'will your widow get a payout?'

 

[Guest111]

Seem to be going off track a bit - I thought the question was not if you're going to jail, but 'will your widow get a payout?'

Well his own life insurance should pay out,the only way they don't is usually if you top yourself!Unlikely to get anything from the company though.

 

[pepparz]

when i had my interview for the company I currently work for now the head engineer said to me, "if i asked you to do a job live to keep production going, what would you do?" and I said " I'd tell you to f*** off " and he said "that is exactly what I wanted to hear".
large companies wil not ask you to work live, a poor safety record is bad for business, the shareholders don't like it.

 

[Knobhead]

So how would you feel about working live on this?

I was brought up with the kind of gear. This was at 550V with a 400A feed, some had 1000A feeders. Unfortunately I ripped this panel out when the plant was converted to dual fuel. I’ve felt guilty about it ever since.
You couldn’t make it dead for the simple reason, as E54 said, it would take hours to get things up and running again.

 

[D Skelton]

So how would you feel about working live on this?

I was brought up with the kind of gear. This was at 550V with a 400A feed, some had 1000A feeders. Unfortunately I ripped this panel out when the plant was converted to dual fuel. I’ve felt guilty about it ever since.
You couldn’t make it dead for the simple reason, as E54 said, it would take hours to get things up and running again.

Yes, you could! When determining whether something is unavoidable or not various other statutory documents are explicit in their explanation that economic reasons alone are not sufficient.

You make a choice, that is on you.

 

[Knobhead]

Damian, I’ve made that decision in the past. Could you cope with 450 people laid off for a week while we in engineering were knocking our guts out on overtime? I must have been the most hated person in the universe.
But it was my decision. The only decision as a catastrophic failure would have meant a big part of the plant being blown apart.
You work on process critical equipment, you’ll change your mind.

 

[D Skelton]

Damian, I’ve made that decision in the past. Could you cope with 450 people laid off for a week while we in engineering were knocking our guts out on overtime? I must have been the most hated person in the universe.
But it was my decision. The only decision as a catastrophic failure would have meant a big part of the plant being blown apart.
You work on process critical equipment, you’ll change your mind.

450 people being laid off for a week and something taking a few hours to get running again are poles apart mate. With the former option then yes, I would agree, it is unreasonable to be expected to work dead (depending on the severity of the work) when 450 people rely on their wages to feed their families, with the latter however, it would be unreasonable to be expected to work live (although like I said earlier, depending on the situation I wouldn't necessarily condemn someone for doing so) when all the boss needs to do is to tell everyone to have the morning off!