scam questions

[Robert Turnbull]

I get the idea behind joint a scam for part p requirements.

But what about commercial work?

What's the point of been scammed for a commercial job?

Reasoning as I'm just starting out on my own and was going to join one of them in the new year ( still working out who best to be scammed by lol)

But I have just been offered to price for a few commercial jobs, now as they aren't part p do I need even need to be member of one ??

 

[bigbaddave]

Part p is only relvevent for domestic, If your only doing commercial then the only benifit is a lot of the bigger companies insist on NICEIC Etc.

Thats your call but for what is costs (Assuming your full time spark) Then the cost over the year come in at £40 a month which aint the end of the world.

 

[Robert Turnbull]

But what benefit to me is there from been NIC ? If someone asks for me to be NIC what advantage is it to them?

Also that means If i do a commercial job, i can test the job my self and issue a cert and thats fine.

 

[MDJ]

when an MPs offspring gets killed in a barn then part P.2 will cover commercial :ihih:

 

[SYKRAPS]

But what benefit to me is there from been NIC ? If someone asks for me to be NIC what advantage is it to them?

Also that means If i do a commercial job, i can test the job my self and issue a cert and thats fine.

If you prospective clients require or request NICEIC then that is a benefit I would say

 

[Deleted member 26818]

One of the problems with applying Part P to commercial installations that I can see, would be getting work assessed.
For instance, I've done work on railways both over and under ground.
Obtaining permission for someone to assess the work for registration would be a nightmare.

 

[telectrix]

when an MPs offspring gets killed in a barn then part P.2 will cover commercial :ihih:

agricultural, surely. anyway, MP's offspring usually get laid in a barn, something to do with the horsey set. as long as they don't grip on exposed conductive parts, they should be OK.

 

[Robert Turnbull]

I can see if your not getting work because people are asking for it. Then it's well worth it..

But why are they asking for it??

There is no legislation saying your required to join a scam.

 

[SAILOR48]

I can see if your not getting work because people are asking for it. Then it's well worth it..

But why are they asking for it??

There is no legislation saying your required to join a scam.

It all amounts to health and safety.
What more could be done to prevent an accident.
The commercial customer can claim that he specified some one, who is assessed/competent for the works in involved. (They could do no more)
If they employ some one who is not NIC/ECA how could they know they are competent?

 

[Chris Milne]

Hi guys, all new to this, just wondering as your on the topic of scams, what are the rules of signing off your own work if you're not a member. I'm going out on my own next year and I'm looking to join select/nic but not sure how to get jobs signed off until I get membership?

 

[SYKRAPS]

Speak to your LABC they will advise you with what to do as they differ in different areas, if you are in Scotland don't worry about it.

 

[Chris Milne]

What's different about Scotland?

 

[SYKRAPS]

No Part P up there

 

[Engineer54]

If they employ some one who is not NIC/ECA how could they know they are competent?

If your trying to say here, that a NICEIC/ECA enrolled person will guarantee competency, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried!!

 

[ipf]

If you're qualified and are properly insured, should be no problem with commercial, unless stipulated.

 

[Robert Turnbull]

Thanks I alway had in my head been Nic etc... Was the only way to operate. But I now realise part p is the only legal requirement that would make you join. The only other benefit is other companies may have it as a requirement to tender for their work.

Next question is are some scam providers just part p compliance. Like Nic domestic installer status?

And with the law change on part p what's the point of just joining for part p ???

 

[MDJ]

Theres nothing wrong with the NICEIC approved scheme, the fact a annual inspection is carried out to ensure the contractor complies to working standards impresses industry as a whole and can be a benefit for finding work, I never look for work and I am on lists where tenders get sent to me due to my approved status, however who ever your with regarding building control notification is a total joke, especially now third parties are involved haha.

 

[Robert Turnbull]

I can understand that mdj, and I think I been NIC carries some weight definitely, but is it only because know one knows any better? That's what I'm trying to assess.
My questioning at the moment really comes down to outlay of cash. If been NIC means work will come to me then it's well worth it, as I am just starting out on my own I'm just working out who I want to join and when it's worth while doing, and if paying the extra to be approved or do i just do it to cover notification purposes?

With the part p change I do I hold off for a bit and see how business goes, as i could operate without been a member if any scheme and saved some cash, in 6 months I might have ended up working back for someone else (hopefully not).

 

[Des 56]

If I were starting out again,Part p can be forgotten, so unless there is going to be some sort of gravy train doing 3rd party inspections,it would be a waste of money
That would in my opinion rule out Elecsa, Napit and to a large extent the Eca.


This leaves my good friends, the most obnoxious of them all,the Niceic approved register

It almost certainly will open up all sorts of avenues in commercial and industrial installation for you as far as opportunity for tendering and Eicrs etc
Not because of any quality that the Niceic requires of its registered companies, but because of the utter ignorance of people who are in work generation positions

If you need them.it's best join them
If you don't ,follow my lead and enjoy coming on forums and trying to destroy the myth these clowns foster, and help the believers of such fantastic fairy tales to see the actual reality of their claims

Just a footnote
Again,I target the despicable organisation,the Niceic and its structure,not its individual membership,who will be a mix of the good the bad and the ugly, as is the makes up of the trade

 

[shagbite]

I get the idea behind joint a scam for part p requirements.

But what about commercial work?

What's the point of been scammed

for a commercial job?

Reasoning as I'm just starting out on my own and was going to join one of them in the new year ( still working out who best to be scammed by lol)

But I have just been offered to price for a few commercial jobs, now as they aren't part p do I need even need to be member of one ??

oh, the irony!

 

[SAILOR48]

If your trying to say here, that a NICEIC/ECA enrolled person will guarantee competency, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried!!

No I am not saying anything, I am asking a question

If they employ some one who is not NIC/ECA how could they know they are competent?

 

[Engineer54]

No I am not saying anything, I am asking a question

If they employ some one who is not NIC/ECA how could they know they are competent?

Your question implies that a registered NICEIC/ECA electrician are all competent, which we all know is nothing like the truth of the matter!!

So tell me, do you consider that a electrician flashing a NICEIC/ECA card in front of you, means he is competent??

Most GOOD electricians, (be they registered with a scam or not), gain a lot of work by recommendations, generally by word of mouth. So the time proven method of asking for recent past references etc, would be the route i'd go.

 

[SAILOR48]

Your question implies that a registered NICEIC/ECA electrician are all competent, which we all know is nothing like the truth of the matter!!Agreed
So tell me, do you consider that a electrician flashing a NICEIC/ECA card in front of you, means he is competent?? A good chance yes


Most GOOD electricians, (be they registered with a scam or not), gain a lot of work by recommendations, generally by word of mouth. So the time proven method of asking for recent past references etc, would be the route i'd go.AS WELL

This is my opinion after 40 years in the game
If you are carrying out any worth while commercial works, especially with a design element to it, the specifier will usually insist on NIC or ECA maybe other, full scheme membership, plus indemnity insurance for the design.
Whether you like it or not, this is the case.
If I were employing a company to carry out works for my customers, I would take it as a given that they would be in recognised scheme I would prefer the one which offers the customer, back up with warranties and bonds.
Most of the sites I work on insist on ECS cards as well
Obviously this would only be part of my judgment who to employ.
Its all wrong I know that there are probably good companies who are not in the schemes for what ever reasons but if you want to get on you will have to join one.
I am not stating that this is a good thing or a judgment on any one who isn’t in one.
I think they are becoming a racket with a lot of unnecessary costs.
If we can gets a better system going all well and good but for now, I think these are the facts.
Please don’t get the hump with me, I would rather save the money and not have to bother with all the rigmarole but I would get little work without it.

 

[Engineer54]

I'm not getting the hump with you...lol!!

But the real truth of the matter, is as you have stated, that all these scam registration bodies are now run in a Racket Mode. Long gone are the day's when being a NICEIC registered contractor actually meant anything, it's now a matter of ''money rules OK!!'' lol!! In all probability, it'll be your insurance cover that is claimed against, not these scams insurance company!!

I'd put it to you that it would take a bomb under these scam providers to get any satisfaction out of them, that goes for the contractor or the customer. The most you'll ever achieve is a half hearted compromise, unless decent solicitors get involved...


Going what i've witnessed here, as regards to scam registered so-called electricians, I would most certainly not be impressed in the slightest by anyone flashing a scam card, ...i'd be far more impressed if the same electrician then flashed a JIB gold card at me!! lol!!

 

[trev]

@sailor48 It's 30 years since I qualified and I refuse to join a scam until it is a legal requirement, the vast majority of the work I get is commercial and a lot comes through word of mouth, it's worth far more than any piece of plastic I could carry.

 

[SAILOR48]

Sorry not sure what you are saying, don’t know what a scam card is.
I guess by JIB you mean an ECS gold card as I said before you wouldn’t get on most of the sites I work on without one (Maybe a basic CSCS if you were a Labrador)
Yes I know people can run businesses and work without any of this stuff, word of mouth mates and contacts that have been built up over the years.
It was a different world then Didn’t have to much health and safety ,never heard of risk assessment, method statements etc and all the other bulls***(Even completion certs )
The OP was asking what he should do for the future ,the days are passed when you turn up on a site with a bag of tools and make it up as you went along.
I have questions do you think that you would have a better chance, of getting quality work being in a scheme or not, that is the question ,
How would you convince a new client that you would perform and warranty your works?

 

[Engineer54]

Sorry not sure what you are saying, don’t know what a scam card is.
I guess by JIB you mean an ECS gold card as I said before you wouldn’t get on most of the sites I work on without one (Maybe a basic CSCS if you were a Labrador)
Yes I know people can run businesses and work without any of this stuff, word of mouth mates and contacts that have been built up over the years.
It was a different world then Didn’t have to much health and safety ,never heard of risk assessment, method statements etc and all the other bulls***(Even completion certs )
The OP was asking what he should do for the future ,the days are passed when you turn up on a site with a bag of tools and make it up as you went along.
I have questions do you think that you would have a better chance, of getting quality work being in a scheme or not, that is the question ,
How would you convince a new client that you would perform and warranty your works?

I'm saying (and quite clearly i thought) that being registered with a scam provider WILL NOT guarantee anything!! lol!!

As for you quoting HSE etc, the only things they have contributed to any industry is utter chaos!!

You are also talking about a time, when a qualified electrician was exactly that, ...Qualified!!
Today, your all on a losing battle, where price over qualifications and experience will in most cases be the deciding factor!! lol!!

 

[yellowvanman]

If I were starting out again,Part p can be forgotten, so unless there is going to be some sort of gravy train doing 3rd party inspections,it would be a waste of money
That would in my opinion rule out Elecsa, Napit and to a large extent the Eca.

Can I ask why?

I'm with Elecsa and ECA, they are there working for you the contractor. Also as an added benefit you can get BUPA cover at a very good price!

Any issues I get with someone specifying NICEIC only, I get the guy from the local ECA office to give them a call to put the right!

 

[SAILOR48]

I guess it depends on what you want from life.
I feel that life on site is a lot safer now than it used to be, at least the people around you have some idea how to behave safely, people using machinery are trained, and trades men have some sort of credentials.
You are instructed what to do if an emergency should occur. There are first aid people about
No I don’t think H&E is perfect at all, Nothings perfect but it’s better than nothing.
As to the other their are no guarantees in life and yes the ECA are quite useful but they are taking the p**s with there charging.

If you customers are only interested in the price get better customers.

 

[Engineer54]

I'm with Elecsa and ECA, they are there working for you the contractor.

​

Only in your wildest dreams!! They are there, working for themselves, you are way down the list of the companies priorities.

 

[SAILOR48]

I'm saying (and quite clearly i thought) that being registered with a scam provider WILL NOT guarantee anything!! lol!!

As for you quoting HSE etc, the only things they have contributed to any industry is utter chaos!!

You are also talking about a time, when a qualified electrician was exactly that, ...Qualified!!
Today, your all on a losing battle, where price over qualifications and experience will in most cases be the deciding factor!! lol!!

How do you define qualified?

 

[telectrix]

or how do you qualify defined?

 

[Engineer54]

How do you define qualified?

Certainly not under the present definitions, or as defined by the scam providers.


But i will try and briefly give you my definition.... An electrician that has been extensively trained for a number of years under the supervision of experienced electricians. That has been progressively given more responsibility as his training progresses. Has completed at least a recognised core qualification, and preferably additional meaningful qualifications that are applicable to the requirements of a journeyman electrician.


Doesn't have to be an indentured apprentice, (GlennSpark is a pretty good example of alternative training) but that was the only way you were considered as being, a ''qualified electrician'' when i entered the industry....

Anyway, ...What would your definition of being qualified be??

 

[moddeydhoo]

time served4-5 years i did 5, city & guilds, not the easy pass exams they have now. An idiot apprentice failed part p 6 times passed the tic box first time.
to do domestic or indutrial or comercial, should all be the same. so called domestic installer in the future will go for the bigger jobs, so called domestic installer, if something goes wrong, see in court how unqualified the wigs will make them look

 

[SAILOR48]

Certainly not under the present definitions, or as defined by the scam providers.


But i will try and briefly give you my definition.... An electrician that has been extensively trained for a number of years under the supervision of experienced electricians. That has been progressively given more responsibility as his training progresses. Has completed at least a recognised core qualification, and preferably additional meaningful qualifications that are applicable to the requirements of a journeyman electrician.


Doesn't have to be an indentured apprentice, (GlennSpark is a pretty good example of alternative training) but that was the only way you were considered as being, a ''qualified electrician'' when i entered the industry....

Anyway, ...What would your definition of being qualified be??

OK good answer
What would you think about a person with no formal qualifications (say a seriously dyslectic).
But has a long history of working on site and could carry out any electrical installation works, including all documentation from (Quotation, to sign off certificates) correctly.
Could carry out any task on site with in-depth supervisory experience and responsibility of all works.
Taken that they would have a good understanding of BS 7671.

 

[trev]

OK good answer
What would you think about a person with no formal qualifications (say a seriously dyslectic).
But has a long history of working on site and could carry out any electrical installation works, including all documentation from (Quotation, to sign off certificates) correctly.
Could carry out any task on site with in-depth supervisory experience and responsibility of all works.
Taken that they would have a good understanding of BS 7671.

There are now facilities in place to train and examine dyslexics mate. My nephew is dyslexic and his training providers are bending over backwards, he's a clever lad though and will pass whatever exams he is faced with. He just has big problems reading some things and writing in a coherent way, ask him to explain what he means though...

 

[SAILOR48]

There are now facilities in place to train and examine dyslexics mate. My nephew is dyslexic and his training providers are bending over backwards, he's a clever lad though and will pass whatever exams he is faced with. He just has big problems reading some things and writing in a coherent way, ask him to explain what he means though...

OK if you wanted to start a thread on learning disabilities and becoming an electrician. I think it would be interesting.

 

[trev]

OK if you wanted to start a thread on learning disabilities and becoming an electrician. I think it would be interesting.

You brought dyslexia into the discussion not me, I was merely pointing out that it isn't the barrier that you may think any more.

Given some of the questions asked on here at times I'm not sure a learning disability is a barrier to becoming a sparky

 

[ipf]

You brought dyslexia into the discussion not me, I was merely pointing out that it isn't the barrier that you may think any more.

Given some of the questions asked on here at times I'm not sure a learning disability is a barrier to becoming a sparky

Nor learning inability ?

 

[trev]

Learning inability maybe ?

Aye, that's probably more like it mate

 

[ipf]

Aye, that's probably more like it mate

Just edited it, may come over easier.

 

[Engineer54]

OK good answer
What would you think about a person with no formal qualifications (say a seriously dyslectic).
But has a long history of working on site and could carry out any electrical installation works, including all documentation from (Quotation, to sign off certificates) correctly.
Could carry out any task on site with in-depth supervisory experience and responsibility of all works.
Taken that they would have a good understanding of BS 7671.

Really can't see the point your trying desperately to put forward here?? Not even the scam providers could justify registering such a person. Which was the original point you were trying to make.

If there were such guy's around, i would have to ask, why haven't they bothered to take the relevant C&G exams etc to qualify themselves?? In reality, without a JIB card they wouldn't even be able to walk onto the vast majority of sites in the UK!!

 

[SAILOR48]

Really can't see the point your trying desperately to put forward here?? Not even the scam providers could justify registering such a person. Which was the original point you were trying to make.

If there were such guy's around, i would have to ask, why haven't they bothered to take the relevant C&G exams etc to qualify themselves?? In reality, without a JIB card they wouldn't even be able to walk onto the vast majority of sites in the UK!!

So you would think.
But it’s not so there was a time in the dim and distant pass when there existed what was known as Granddad rights.
Not generally broadcast but existed all the same.
Basically if you could prove by being sponsored by your company or indeed if you had your own company you could be assessed by one of the scammers the same as any one else and if found satisfactory you paid your money and you were in.
Its recently been changed you now need the open book 17[SUP]th[/SUP] edition thing to stay in.
As you will no doubt agree if you can’t pass this well, hardly an exam.
Same for the JIB card a basic CSCS card will usually get you on site same as above hardly an exam.
But this route is available for now.
Extract from JIB Site
Mature candidate assessment route
If you have been working within the industry but have, for whatever reason, never completed the formal industry qualification, then it will be necessary to complete the mature candidate assessment.
This assessment is carried out via a professional interview and site assessments by a specialist assessor. These assessments can accredit your prior industry experienced, where applicable, with existing technical qualifications taken into account.
In most cases gaining accreditation is a straightforward process for those legitimately competent in the industry, and relevant experience can generally be verified and documented by an experienced assessor in 6 to 8 weeks.

Until 31st December 2012 candidates who are registered by their training provider/assessor will demonstrate their industry knowledge and experience against the NVQ Level 3 in Electrotechnical Services (Electrical Installation - Buildings & Structures). This process will have to have been completed before the last certification date in 2015.
From 1st January 2013 candidates will be registered by their training provider/assessor on the Level 3 NVQ Diploma in Electrical Installations (Buildings and Structures) and this will include the AM2 assessment.
This qualification route is open to anyone who has industry experience but does not hold the relevant industry qualification.
Information on the mature candidate route is available from the following national assessment companies or your local college or assessor :

 

[Engineer54]

Whatever way you want to look at it, unless you go through some form of formal training or in depth assessment where technical and practical knowledge has to be proved, you don't get a JIB electricians card!! I hope your not implying that an improver/mates JIB card will allow them to literary run a project electrically, as you described in an earlier post on this thread??

Not really interested in what the scammers consider competent, anyone and their dog can pass their assessment procedures, they have proved time and time again, they are primarily only interested in the money side of things!!

 

[SAILOR48]

Whatever way you want to look at it, unless you go through some form of formal training or in depth assessment where technical and practical knowledge has to be proved, you don't get a JIB electricians card!! I hope your not implying that an improver/mates JIB card will allow them to literary run a project electrically, as you described in an earlier post on this thread??


No they would have a full skill gold card

Not really interested in what the scammers consider competent, anyone and their dog can pass their assessment procedures, they have proved time and time again, they are primarily only interested in the money side of things!!

If they were free would you join one?
The JIB are owned by the ECA
“The JIB is jointly owned by ECA and Unite, the union. Its objectives are to provide a forum for debate and agreement on employment matters, as well as offering employers practical support in dealing professionally with employees and employment requirements.”

So where do we go from here who is to judge wheather we are compitant? (you seem to be getting humpy again hangover is it?)

 

[Infamous]

There is no specific requirement for you to be a member of an organisation such as the NICEIC or ECA etc for commercial electrical installation work. None. You have a duty however to follow the HASWA/EAWR and in doing so common sense and compliance with BS7671:2008(2011) is required in all aspects of the job. Competency can only be proven by suitable qualifications and experience.

Now a client may well request such trade body organisation membership for tendering commercial installation work. This is down to the illusion companies like the NICEIC/ECA etc like to create that in order to be a fully qualified electrician/registered you need to be a member. However in no way does membership with said organisations guarantee compliance on a job for the client, nor does it give any protection for a company which fails to comply with the above regulations and are a member. In short membership gives you no legal bolstering what so ever, if you burn a village down the ECA/NICEIC etc wont have your back in court.

Worse than that the NICEIC/ECA's etc definition of competency in a court of law might not even be enough to prove competency beyond doubt in the first place.

And as for Part P - from April domestic electrical work can be carried out by Bob the plasterer from the pub, non qualified, non registered and his third party mate the "competent person" can produce just a EICR rather than a EIC Endorsed by the government and said scam provider. Limitations anyone?:iamwithstupid:

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013_DRAFT.pdf

 

[trev]

If they were free would you join one?
The JIB are owned by the ECA
“The JIB is jointly owned by ECA and Unite, the union. Its objectives are to provide a forum for debate and agreement on employment matters, as well as offering employers practical support in dealing professionally with employees and employment requirements.”

So where do we go from here who is to judge wheather we are compitant? (you seem to be getting humpy again hangover is it?)

JIB now owned(?) by ECA....
ECA now are in bad with NICEIC...
The world really has gone to hell in a handcart.
Dan, Shut this down we're all going off to be gas blokes.

 

[eagles]

So part p is getting worse. Who makes this sh!t up, this trade is doomed

 

[Engineer54]

If they were free would you join one?
The JIB are owned by the ECA
“The JIB is jointly owned by ECA and Unite, the union. Its objectives are to provide a forum for debate and agreement on employment matters, as well as offering employers practical support in dealing professionally with employees and employment requirements.”

So where do we go from here who is to judge wheather we are compitant? (you seem to be getting humpy again hangover is it?)

It's not me that's living in your hypothetical world, ...thank god!!!!

 

[Robert Turnbull]

So for commercial work it's just NIC and ECA non of the others?