PAT flex outlets feeding wall heater

[hubsy]

Hi Guys,

Hope you can help me.

I am qualified sparks and have been pat testing for over 20 years.

I am in dispute over testing a wall mounted heater connected to a flex outlet spur box.

I say it's the PAT testers duty to test the heater.

Company is saying it 5yr fixed wiring check.

your thoughts please gentlemen.

hubsy

 

[dan86]

providing its residential or commercial, I'd say fixed wiring check

 

[hubsy]

quote from iee code of practive
other than the fixed installation, all electrical equipment in an installation, whether permanently connected or connected by a plug and socket, should be inspected and tested in accordance with the recommendations contained in this Code of Practice.
end quote

 

[BrianDB9]

So its a fixed item of equipment , unlikely to suffer absuse that "portable " equipment suffers therefore a risk assessment might deduce a reduced frequency of "inservice testing" say 5 years ?

Theres no doubt it forms part of the electrical installation and should be tested as such but i havent got the code of practise for in service testing to hand so cant verify that.
The HSE have for quite a while been saying PAT isn't required every 12 months its got to be risk assessed and the required frequency advised accordingly.

Hope thats useful ! god bottles empty again

 

[hazelm]

quote from iee code of practive
other than the fixed installation, all electrical equipment in an installation, whether permanently connected or connected by a plug and socket, should be inspected and tested in accordance with the recommendations contained in this Code of Practice.
end quote

Correct!

My interpretation also.

 

[hazelm]

So its a fixed item of equipment , unlikely to suffer absuse that "portable " equipment suffers therefore a risk assessment might deduce a reduced frequency of "inservice testing" say 5 years ?

Theres no doubt it forms part of the electrical installation and should be tested as such but i havent got the code of practise for in service testing to hand so cant verify that.
The HSE have for quite a while been saying PAT isn't required every 12 months its got to be risk assessed and the required frequency advised accordingly.

Hope thats useful ! god bottles empty again

ISITEE is required on a risk related basis. The table in the new 4th edition includes fixed items supplied from flex coming from a flex outlet. All good testers will have a copy!

 

[hubsy]

My company will not let me have a copy of the 4th edition. I've had to get bits from internet sites.
IET wiring matters is a good source.

I can't find a sample of the formal inspection and combined test form to wave under their nose.

 

[Adam W]

I say it's an appliance so needs testing as one - just because it's wired into a FCU and not a plug and socket doesn't make any difference to what it is.

- - - Updated - - -

My company will not let me have a copy of the 4th edition. I've had to get bits from internet sites.
IET wiring matters is a good source.

I can't find a sample of the formal inspection and combined test form to wave under their nose.

Could you buy one yourself and read it secretly without them knowing?

 

[hubsy]

£48 I don't have spare just now.

 

[hazelm]

£48 I don't have spare just now.

Compare that with the cost of a life - no comparison!

 

[hubsy]

try tell my bosses that,

 

[hubsy]

I say it's an appliance so needs testing as one - just because it's wired into a FCU and not a plug and socket doesn't make any difference to what it is.

Could you buy one yourself and read it secretly without them knowing?

- - - Updated - - -
My bosses boss and his boss are coming over to Norwich next week 'To Discuss' Pat testing.
I've splashed out on the 4th edition from Amazon, should be here on Thursday, so I'll be reading the words off the pages on Friday till the following Thursday.
Not sure if I should have a 3rd party present to back my corner.
They are being cagey about the meeting.

 

[hubsy]

Yes, reading the COP, it states where the fixed installation starts and finishes.

other than fixed installation, which is considered to be the installation from the meter point to the socket-outlet, or fuse connection unit, all electrical equipment in an installation, whether permanently connected by a plug and socket-outlet should be inspected and tested in accordance with the recommendation contained in this code of practice.

 

[hubsy]

Had a meeting with, boss, his boss, and his boss.

They do not want us to check fixed appliances with FCU flex outlets, because......





wait for it......






the guys are not competent to disconnect and reconnect appliances....






AND





they can't understand the theory of resistance.



words fail me....

 

[ste77]

your bosses are maybe correct, there are a lot of pat testers without any electrical qualifications, so wouldnt be classed as competent to be disconnecting and reconnecting items to test them. A wall mounted heater in my opinion would always come under fixed testing as its permanently connected to a supply.

 

[telectrix]

it's an appliance. not part of the fixed wiring. and as such is subject to the COP for what is incorrectly called PAT testing. if the guys are not competent to work on fixed appliances, then they should re-train as call centre staff.

 

[ste77]

If the water heater had a plug top then id say they are free to test it, but if it involved opening up the fused spur, then in order to work on it safely they'd need to isolate circuits etc i could see problems created

 

[telectrix]

what has become of electricians who can't disconnect and reconnect the outgoing side of a FCU with the switch off and the fuse removed. pansies is the word that springs to mind.

 

[ste77]

what has become of electricians who can't disconnect and reconnect the outgoing side of a FCU with the switch off and the fuse removed. pansies is the word that springs to mind.

I agree but there are electricians who PAT test and can do as youve mentioned very competently, but also PAT testers who know diddely squat about electrics, when i sat my PAT exam years ago there were 2 women receptionists who had been sent on the course as they were duty holders for the building, cant imagine one of them wanting to mess around with anything without a plug on it.

 

[hubsy]

true, but fixed appliances are in the 4th edition COP.

 

[ste77]

Its strange how they class a "fixed" appliance as part of a "portable" appliance test. Surely if its fixed its not portable. Im just glad PAT isnt in my remit at work.

 

[telectrix]

that says it all. as i said before, training monkeys to PAT test is just another dumbing down of our trade. a bit like calling yourself a plumber if all you can fit is push fit plastic and can't solder a copper pipe joint.

 

[oldtimer]

your bosses are maybe correct, there are a lot of pat testers without any electrical qualifications, so wouldnt be classed as competent to be disconnecting and reconnecting items to test them. A wall mounted heater in my opinion would always come under fixed testing as its permanently connected to a supply.

This is the case because when they did the review this was highlighted by the college lecturer when I asked for clarification on fixed equipment and he said let me make this clear fixed appliances are included with ISI&TEE formally PAT and should not be included with fixed wiring plus guy who is a qualified PAT tester only cannot open up a FCU to test the appliance because he or she is not competent or insured . So how do you get around it I said and he replied you dont but if you are a big PAT company you will have to get your inhouse spark to test the fixed appliances or if you have a major contract with a housing association then they have been advised that the electrician can pick up the fixed appliance when doing the EICR but it is a seperate test. He also said thats why fixed appliances have been ignored as PAT companies are saying if it aint got a plug on it and is wired directlt to the fixed wiring then it gets checked out under fixed wiring I&T which is a lot of tosh plus things like cookers,wall fans ,storage heaters, even burglar alarms comes under ISI&TEE and we can no longer turn a blind eye to this

 

[telectrix]

irrespective of whether they are on a plug or wired into a FCU, they are still portable in that they can be disconnected and moved. they are not part of the fixed wiring installation

 

[hubsy]

totally correct oldtimer.

I was taught how to correctly check fixed appliances over 10 years ago, when I originally passed the then PAT course.

 

[oldtimer]

Its strange how they class a "fixed" appliance as part of a "portable" appliance test. Surely if its fixed its not portable. Im just glad PAT isnt in my remit at work.

You are falling into the same trap a lot of guys do as the term PAT sounded good only problem was it was misleading and as its been said testing falls into 2 sections fixed wiring I&T and appliances ISI&TEE and thats it plus it did not help that the Scheme providers ignored this when selling courses as they well knew this would cause a problem so if you are PAT qualified only you are not competent or insured

 

[Engineer54]

I can't see how these so-called bosses can redefine a ''Code of Practice'' to suit their own companies failure to train it's operatives!!

It also defies comprehension, of employing a company to fulfil a companies/customers PAT testing (or whatever they are called these day's) insurance needs, if they are only going to undertake a part of the job!! Does that mean they will have to employ another company to test all these wall mounted FCU supplied heaters?? Words just defy me sometimes, with some of the crap i read on here!! lol!!

 

[oldtimer]

Yes it does mean they will have to get a electrician to test the fixed equipment hence why they dont want to get involved as the lecturer said to me its one big headache because someone trained specifically in PAT can only test that ie portable equipment but fixed applianced did not just spring up they have always been there its just that the PAT companies have what I would say as dingied it hence the myth that "If its got a plug on it we test it if not it comes under fixed wiring"

I asked why cant you train the PAT guys to safely isolate the FCU so they can test it and it was a definate NO it aint going to happen because of legalities and insurance. So whats the big deal I said fixed appliances just get missed out and he replied because the insurance companies are asking why they are not getting tested. Talking to someone with a PAT company they said fine we will hire a spark to do them and then put the charge on to the companies. In my view its a mess because they dumbed it down to non skilled job and then allowed the PAT companies to write the rules.

PS the reason why I was speaking to a lecturer was I had to sign up to a nightclass for ISI&TEE because one of the letting agents said we will need to see your qualifications I said I am an approved spark who told you this and she replied the PAT testing company said you were not legal if you did not have a C&G another urban myth

 

[Engineer54]

Yes it does mean they will have to get a electrician to test the fixed equipment hence why they dont want to get involved as the lecturer said to me its one big headache because someone trained specifically in PAT can only test that ie portable equipment but fixed applianced did not just spring up they have always been there its just that the PAT companies have what I would say as dingied it hence the myth that "If its got a plug on it we test it if not it comes under fixed wiring"

I asked why cant you train the PAT guys to safely isolate the FCU so they can test it and it was a definate NO it aint going to happen because of legalities and insurance. So whats the big deal I said fixed appliances just get missed out and he replied because the insurance companies are asking why they are not getting tested. Talking to someone with a PAT company they said fine we will hire a spark to do them and then put the charge on to the companies. In my view its a mess because they dumbed it down to non skilled job and then allowed the PAT companies to write the rules.

PS the reason why I was speaking to a lecturer was I had to sign up to a nightclass for ISI&TEE because one of the letting agents said we will need to see your qualifications I said I am an approved spark who told you this and she replied the PAT testing company said you were not legal if you did not have a C&G another urban myth

So why is the PAT testing C&G Qualification, rated as a level 3 electrical qualification!! Bloody farce all round!!

 

[hubsy]

I'd like to swear and let off steam,

going for a pint or two or three.....

 

[oldtimer]

So why is the PAT testing C&G Qualification, rated as a level 3 electrical qualification!! Bloody farce all round!!

Totally agree with you but remember the people in the know have allowed this to happen ie when ISI&TEE came out PAT was nice go to abreviation and the majority of it was portable appliances plus the Scheme providers who rushed to say that it was a semi skilled job and by the way we can sell you the course are now giving it err emm is this fixed appliance thing a problem with the colleges saying you know full well it is. Plus ISI&TEE edition 4 was meant to clarify things to say that FAs must be included in the ISI&TEE visit but as I said PAT specific companies are writing their own rules and keeping the urban mythes going such as.

1. Only equipment with a plug on it need be tested.(well NO)
2. Fixed appliances come under fixed wiring testing (so how come its in ISI&TEE COP)
3. You must get your equipment tested every year. (No you must risk asses the period)
4. An electrician is not qualified to do PAT testing. (O yes he or she is)
5. You must have a C&G qualification to do PAT testing. (Since when)
6. Don't listen to anyone else we are the professionals (Thats been my biggest complaint)
7. We are NICEIC certified and specialize in PAT testing are they (You & me) certified

 

[SirKit Breaker]

I havent read all the posts in this thread, but i will throw any bit in anyway. For my sins i teach C&G Pat testing amongst other stuff, and so i have given the C of P 4th edition a good look at, and altered my course content to suit.

Anyone doing electrical work or Pat testing does not need to have qualifications of any kind. They do however need to be competent (Electricity At Work regulations 1989). A Competent person is described in the definitions in both BS7671 and C of p 4th Edition. I respect ste77's and others opinions, but i have to disagree with them as they are mis informed. Every piece of equipment, that does not form part of the fixed installation, but that is either permanently connected to it (except luminaires) by means of a FCU or similar, or plugged into it requires In service Inspection and Test, and although records need not be kept, it is advisable, (Electricity At Work regs 1989 again).

There has been a change to the frequency of inspection and test, and a get out clause.
You can now work from the frequency table as before, but can now decide by risk assessment whether or not to increase or decrease insp and test frequency. It also goes on to say, that is also acceptable to carry out all the testing in a particular location at the same time (subject to this and that), or words to that effect. Regarding equipment that is permanently connected , then as long as the insp and test frequency aligns with the frequency of the fixed installation, then it can be done at that time.

There is a page dedicated to the fixed installation in the new COP.

Cheers............Howard