appliances in kitchen having seperate switching eg by fused spur

[Daveyboy]

Hi guys, can anyone point to the building reg about appliances in the kitchen having a seperate switching, e.g washing machine under a worktop- socket under the worktop supplied from fused spur above. Thanks.

 

[telectrix]

appliances should have accessible means of isolation. this can be achieved by means of a FCU, or D/P switch/es. above worktop.

 

[Daveyboy]

do dont happen to know the reg for that do you?

 

[telectrix]

not off hand. not sure if there is a reg. as the socket into which the appliance is plugged is a means of isolation. it's just convenience in not having to drag a heavy washing machine out to isolate. if there is a specific reg. i'm sure some one else can point to it .

 

[Des 56]

Accessability is a loose term that wont have given situatiuons to reference in the brb

First of all,its an interpretation by the designer of what is accessable
To some a socket behind a washer is not accessable,to another,by moving the washer, the socket is accessable
Each to argue the case as he sees fit

The reg number that references accessability comes under fundamental principles in chapter 13
132.12

 

[Daveyboy]

In theory if you had means of isolation for each appliance, you could end up with a lots of switches/FCUs (I know you could have a grid switch). just got me thinking- like for a cooker hood in a kitchen could just have a single socket where the hood will go so you can just plug it in (behind the housing) or would you need a means of isolation elsewhere?

 

[mattmoo1974]

I put a FCU next to the exhaust hose for mine and the cover hides it nicely.
You ve still gotta pull the cover off(which is stainless steal) to isolate.
I think you can just bend this rule to suit yourself tbh.

 

[Octopus]

In theory if you had means of isolation for each appliance, you could end up with a lots of switches/FCUs (I know you could have a grid switch). just got me thinking- like for a cooker hood in a kitchen could just have a single socket where the hood will go so you can just plug it in (behind the housing) or would you need a means of isolation elsewhere?

Not sure that a socket (behind the housing) would be accessible.

My interpretation of accessible is visible!

 

[1shortcircuit]

My interpretation of accessible is

Can be accessed without the use of a tool/s

:thumbsup

 

[moody89]

In theory if you had means of isolation for each appliance, you could end up with a lots of switches/FCUs (I know you could have a grid switch). just got me thinking- like for a cooker hood in a kitchen could just have a single socket where the hood will go so you can just plug it in (behind the housing) or would you need a means of isolation elsewhere?

All of the work I do for the local authority has DP switches for all appliances and to be fair this does make the place look very busy, particularly if there's only a small kitchen. But thats their spec I guess! I'd agree that a grid switch would be the neatest and most professional solution if this was deemed to be essential.

 

[buttonmoon]

Hello

[h=3]"Disconnection of equipment[/h]The means of isolation from the electricity supply must be readily accessible to the user,
i.e. in normal circumstances it must be possible to reach the plug and socket without to much difficulty."

This is a requirement relating to the equipment rather than the electrical installation.

Part of a PAT test.

 

[rsmck]

In my last kitchen all the appliances were simply fed through holes in the floor and plugged into 13A sockets intended for the purpose (and labelled) in the basement - there was an easy means of isolation, but it did involve going into the basement - fine for maintenance though (e.g. changing / repairing an appliance) not so helpful if you needed a way to isolate it quickly.

 

[Knobhead]

Here’s a conundrum for you.
I’ve just moved to a new flat, the kitchen is fitted with FCU’s for the usual stuff. Now I plugged in the washing M/C, etc, then thought about it. The appliance is fitted with a fused plug, and as far as the washing M/C is concerned inaccessible. In effect I’ve now got two fuses in series, not good practice in my eyes. With the fridge the upstream fuse can be down graded to 5A and a 13A fitted to the appliance which will give the discrimination preference to the FCU. But as to the washing M/C?

I think I’ve still got some ¼” round copper off cuts somewhere.

I’m going to fall on the side of DP isolators.

 

[oxocube]

I’m going to fall on the side of DP isolators.

I agree, never understood why some sparks use a fcu to isolate a socket.

 

[Octopus]

If you use grid switches you "only" get double poled isolation so a 2nd fuse isn't essential. The key to the reg, IMHO, is accessible isolation, not fused isolation!

 

[oxocube]

Heres a simple test for all those that believe isolation points don't have to be visible or obvious, and hidden behind other things means accessible and acceptable.

Sit on the cooker and turn on the hob, and then get someone else who is unfamiliar with the installation to find the isolation point and turn off.

 

[Knobhead]

Sit on the cooker and turn on the hob, and then get someone else who is unfamiliar with the installation to find the isolation point and turn off.

Can we watch you do it?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The position of an isolator, is always going to be determined by why isolation is required.
If isolation is required purly for maintenance, then it can be just about anywhere if it is lockable.
If it's for functional switching, then it would need to be fairly close to the appliance, and fairly easily identifiable.
If it's for emergency switching, it should then be in a readily available and safe position, and clearly identifiable (i.e. big red labeled switch).

 

[ezzzekiel]

Would say intergrated appliances built into units should have fcu above and most other appliances not, although I tend to fit one for any under counter appliances also

 

[telectrix]

i can just see a row of cast iron fireman's switches in a nice new kitchen

 

[rsmck]

Sit on the cooker and turn on the hob, and then get someone else who is unfamiliar with the installation to find the isolation point and turn off.

Thanks to the fact that ours is induction, this wouldn't worry me too much

 

[Knobhead]

i can just see a row of cast iron fireman's switches in a nice new kitchen

Would be OK now the height of them has been lowered for short ar$ed firewomen.

 

[cadspark]

I have on occasion installed flex outlet plates then wired the appliance directly into these which are then protected by FCU above worktop. That way you can safely isolate without having to pull the appliance out and you only have to worry about the fuse in the FCU which is accessible.

 

[johnboy6083]

Would be OK now the height of them has been lowered for short ar$ed firewomen.

I can just imagine your garden, a 11/0.4 kv tranny, feeding a small .5MVA board. bet youve got a herater that can take paint off the opposite wall.
All cables hidden away, in nice black enamel/steel conduit. All appliances in kitchen indicidually isolated by MEM switch disconnectors.

 

[Des 56]

I can just imagine your garden, a 11/0.4 kv tranny, feeding a small .5MVA board. bet youve got a herater that can take paint off the opposite wall.
All cables hidden away, in nice black enamel/steel conduit. All appliances in kitchen indicidually isolated by MEM switch disconnectors.

lol johnyboy

With the addition of the stop starts for the washing machine and dryer and the external compressor unit for the fridge, and the 5 Hp submersable pump in the Bath,the jobs a good un

 

[ash_s3]

When using grid switches for say a washing machine and tumble dryer in a utility. If you take both legs of the ring into the box, one leg into one DP switch the other leg to the other switch and link between the two, you would have to use 4mm2 T&E to the unswitched socket outlet as 2.5mm2 wouldn't be protected by 32a MCB? Any other way to do it?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

When using grid switches for say a washing machine and tumble dryer in a utility. If you take both legs of the ring into the box, one leg into one DP switch the other leg to the other switch and link between the two, you would have to use 4mm2 T&E to the unswitched socket outlet as 2.5mm2 wouldn't be protected by 32a MCB? Any other way to do it?

Does the cable spuring off the RFC require any protection?

 

[ash_s3]

Didn't think of it like that! Exactly the same thing really.
Doh!

 

[mogga]

Does the cable spuring off the RFC require any protection?

I thought about that as well then say you have oven,ccoffee maker,microwave.dishwasher,washing machine ect you could have 8 9 way grid switch on a RFC with 9 spurs off would that be 1 practical? 2 alllowable??

 

[DaveyD]

Each DP is looped in the ring so its not spur off of spur

 

[Knobhead]

Rather you than me using a 9 gang grid switch. Never mind looping the 9 DP switches to keep the ring intact you’ll have 33 other cores to deal with. (Including CPC’s).

 

[DaveyD]

That's a fair comment. I only have experience with 4's and they are a challange for me

 

[Des 56]

intact you’ll have 33 other cores to deal with. (Including CPC’s).[/QUOTE]

And
The poor wifey in the kitchen would be spending all her time switching on those myriad of appliances and no time left to get the dinner ready on time,tut tut

 

[Knobhead]

We need the Jetson’s kitchen appliances, one central control panel!

Sunday lunch:

• Button 1, joint levitates to the oven
• Button 2, vegetables prepare themselves
• Button 3, Auntie Bessie emerges from the cupboard and mixes fresh Yorkshire pudding batter.
• I’ll leave the rest to you!

But! If it’s English designed, I’ll bet the gravy scalds when it’s poured in your lap!

 

[mogga]

those are exactly the points Im getting at Tony Also the amount of appliances and power use in the kitchen has gone way up since the " kitchen ring" came into beeing Iv seen the wife have 2 rings the oven the washing machine ,dishwasher and kettle going then she decides to stick on a slice of toast for the wean Had to turn the central heating down ffs
If I was redoing the kitchen Id almost be tempted to put a 16mm submain in and a small c.u. with rads for appliances in the kitchen

 

[Knobhead]

I did it 20 over years ago. Saved a lot of trouble and work, but at the time unconventional, but who gives a sh*t, I didn’t, 14[SUP]th[/SUP] again!

 

[Knobhead]

Des and John, I’ll get my own back!

It’s done in galvanised with BILL Royal switches if you don’t mind! Re-wireable fuses for every outlet! The sockets are all metalclad Niphan 32A. With a BICC EC2 outlet for the cooker.

View attachment 7762

The switchboard took a bit of getting under the stairs but GEC MiniForm is quite compact!

View attachment 7766

 

[Knobhead]

BTW I live in a one bedroom flat!

 

[kathwilcox]

Hi guys, can anyone point to the building reg about appliances in the kitchen having a seperate switching, e.g washing machine under a worktop- socket under the worktop supplied from fused spur above. Thanks.

Answer is in the electricians guide to the building reg, green book, don't know what page as can't be arsed to empty the van to find the book, but says something along the lines of as long as appliance can be moved then there is no need for seperate switching.

 

[Octopus]

Answer is in the electricians guide to the building reg, green book, don't know what page as can't be arsed to empty the van to find the book, but says something along the lines of as long as appliance can be moved then there is no need for seperate switching.

P61, vii and viii are the ones to read, BUT I don't agree with vii as I've seen many that can't simply be pulled out!