Are we killing the apprenticeship route into the industry?

[Guest123]

Chaps,

It is the site sponsors that help keep the forum going.

If it wasnt for them you wouldnt have anywhere to go, to be a part of a great community.

If it wasn't for us "members" there would be no forum for these agencies to advertise on.

Are you championing their underhand methods of stating that there are thousands of jobs available and that you can easily earn £50,000

I understand the whole sponsorship angle, doesn't mean we have to sing their praises just because thay pay to be on here.

No-one is bigger than the forum and the forum isn't bigger than anyone of it's members.


Become An Electrician
No Exp Needed. Earn Up To £50,747. Re Train As An Electrician Here.
FastTrack.Electrician


I rest my case.

 

[Mac]

not exactly what I heard, i assumed it would continue like 2360 pt 1 did, part 1 had prob 30% practical but part 2 had none, why not scrap nvqs and have a lot more practical at college?

Disagree mate,working in a bay is nothing like doing it on site.I did my AM1,AM2,doesn't compare to doing it on site.Your in a little square box doing all this practical,IMO,doesn't compare to actually doing it on site.That is where you learn the trade,not in a college

 

[Dave]

Ben..is that a sponsor link or just one you got from google..?

 

[boatnik1]

Lenny:- LOL, Dave will be after you. Yesterday he questioned where any sponsors were advertiseing such as the ad you have reproduced which I had refered to in a post.

Dave it's a link displayed on most of the forum pages

 

[Dave]

Lenny:- LOL, Dave will be after you. Yesterday he questioned where any sponsors were advertiseing such as the ad you have reproduced which I had refered to in a post.

I'm not after anyone...i want to know if a sponsor is quoting that...simple as that so don't post silly remarks thank you..

Dave it's a link displayed on most of the forum pages

Is it a google advert or sponsor banner....not hard to answer,,?

 

[Guest123]

It's just a random add from the side of the page.

Forum ethics aside now mate, as a professional tradesman these agencies also do 5 day tiling courses do you not feel they fly in the face of everything the time served chap has achieved during his time??

I'm just interested in other peoples views is all.

 

[boatnik1]

Seems to be a google link.

 

[montybaber]

Disagree mate,working in a bay is nothing like doing it on site.I did my AM1,AM2,doesn't compare to doing it on site.Your in a little square box doing all this practical,IMO,doesn't compare to actually doing it on site.That is where you learn the trade,not in a college

And how does that compare with completing 2330 l2+3 and then having to go out on your own? the issue is with the shortage of apprenticeships site experience is becoming very sparse for new members to the industry surely more practical on the 2330 courses wouldnt be a bad thing?

The basics of domestic wiring testing etc can be taught in a bay and is, expansion on this is surely beneficial.

I would love to see every new sparx coming through the traditional route but im afraid thats cloud cuckoo land! almost every new member on here is in the same boat and we need to address this and stop being so judgemental, the short courses for mature students and the 2330 (only) is sadly the norm nowadays and it appears to me that most people are mre enthusiastic towards the industry than most apprentices I have ever met.

I wonder if you told your apprentice that he had to study his course at weekends and pay for the course himself i suspect he/she will not be amused, I admire the new blood in the sparky world as they work twice as hard, pay twice as much and endure twice the ridicule!

Please remember time served sparks you didnt have it so bad

 

[Mac]

please bring back the old apprenticeships

 

[Dave]

OK..So it's not a sponsor and just a google advert that flicks up on the forums....

So NOTHING to do with our sponsors...so are we all clear that we do not condone those remarks towards sponsors and they do NOT quote that you can earn those silly prices if you train with them...

Any google adverts are NOT assoiciated with the sparky forums sponsors , they are just adverts simple as that, you can discuss what you want lads but do not tar the sponsors with the same brush...

thanks lads..

 

[Mac]

And how does that compare with completing 2330 l2+3 and then having to go out on your own? the issue is with the shortage of apprenticeships site experience is becoming very sparse for new members to the industry surely more practical on the 2330 courses wouldnt be a bad thing?

The basics of domestic wiring testing etc can be taught in a bay and is, expansion on this is surely beneficial.

I would love to see every new sparx coming through the traditional route but im afraid thats cloud cuckoo land! almost every new member on here is in the same boat and we need to address this and stop being so judgemental, the short courses for mature students and the 2330 (only) is sadly the norm nowadays and it appears to me that most people are mre enthusiastic towards the industry than most apprentices I have ever met.

I wonder if you told your apprentice that he had to study his course at weekends and pay for the course himself i suspect he/she will not be amused, I admire the new blood in the sparky world as they work twice as hard, pay twice as much and endure twice the ridicule!

Please remember time served sparks you didnt have it so bad

Hi mate i'm not slagging all these youngsters putting themselves thru college.Half of them are older guys anyway.The only problem is they finish their courses and have no practical experience and can't find a job.As i said earlier they should bring back the old fashioned apprenticeships.That is why this country is lacking tradesmen.No one cares and they look elsewhere

 

[Guest123]

I admire the new blood in the sparky world as they work twice as hard

Twice as hard as who???

Dont begin to tell me that those of us who were lucky enough to get an apprenticeship had it easy mate, because we (I) didn't.

My college was 40 miles away from where I lived and out of my £35 a week I had to buy tools, boots, pay bus fare and later on petrol, pay lodge to my old man.

So no we didn't have it easy.


P.S this is my last post on the topic or else I fear I may get banned.

 

[montybaber]

I have a feeling that in an electrical forum some occassional debates will not always support site sponsors etc, people have views and just because they support the forums (much the same as the members do) doesnt mean that subjects should not be discussed.

Personally I think short course providers provide a service to a gap in the market (people turned down from college for being to old) I do however believe that some of their advertising is misleading (im talking generally not specifically) the electrical industry is not the money spinner they advertise it as being and I think some of their costs are overinflated.

This isnt a witch-hunt it is a duscussion that I suspect you will find on every site and on every forum

 

[Dave]

passion lenny, thats what it is called...lol lol lol

 

[montybaber]

Twice as hard as who???

Dont begin to tell me that those of us who were lucky enough to get an apprenticeship had it easy mate, because we (I) didn't.

My college was 40 miles away from where I lived and out of my £35 a week I had to buy tools, boots, pay bus fare and later on petrol, pay lodge to my old man.

So no we didn't have it easy.


P.S this is my last post on the topic or else I fear I may get banned.

Lenny this isnt an argument its a discussion I am merely saying that we had our course fees paid for us, we had the training given to us where many these days do not.

Im not saying it was easy, i went through it exactly the same

PS my college was Southampton from Weymouth for a yr 2 days a week and burnemouth for the other three so I know how you felt

 

[Dave]

I agree monty..no probs there.. i just did not want peeps thinking that our sponsors tell new comers that 50,000 or what ever is achievable in the first year or so....

Discuss all day long for me , i just wanted to clear that up...

 

[montybaber]

Hi mate i'm not slagging all these youngsters putting themselves thru college.Half of them are older guys anyway.The only problem is they finish their courses and have no practical experience and can't find a job.As i said earlier they should bring back the old fashioned apprenticeships.That is why this country is lacking tradesmen.No one cares and they look elsewhere

Agree totally unfortunately I cant see it

 

[Mac]

I did block release at college.6 weeks onsite and 6 weeks in college on a YTS scheme and paid pittance.I worked for a JIB company back then.Are there any companies offering this sort of training.Don't think so.I have been out of the trade 20 years and it is a nightmare trying to get funding anywhere or even trying to get back into the trade.I am quite lucky that i have a rich Aunt who will pay for my courses,but i still can't find a job because of a lack of experience even thou i was a time served apprentice

 

[boatnik1]

Dave. I do not wish to appear argumentative but having established that the offending ad is not a direct sponser but is a google product, is there not a way that google can be informed that this ad is at the very least misleading and does a diservice to the industry and to the (victims) misled by it , and perhaps remove it.,

As a retired time served spark I am dismayed by the number of people who have been led down this path and having believed the hype and spent their hard earned cash now dispair their position with no prospect of a job.

 

[Spudnik]

Concerning the Ad in question, i think EVERYONE has missed one small detail.

Ill leave you all to find it.

 

[boatnik1]

Jason. Presumably what you refer too, is that somebody asassinated it.

 

[Spudnik]

Nope, its just above my post^^^^

 

[boatnik1]

That said; it seems to either be gone or is in hiding.

Just looked, it's back again

 

[zupos40]

It going to get worse, as summit skills ( quango who decide the training requirement of electrical personnel) are scrapping the 2330 technical certificate as they state employers do not require apprentice type skilled electricians, what they want is semi skilled labours who can accurately produce a material list and will jump when told too.

As for 5K training there will alway be people who will take advantage of vunerable persons, I worked as a part time lecturer in FE college plus have 26 year experience on the tool from JIB indentured Apprentice, approved electrician etc.

The problem is that most commercial electrical work is plug and play, modular lighting DIL lighting system, power track under raised floor, plastic compartmental trunking, plastic conduit, armoured, it a few years since any of my mates or myself have installed MICC, metal condiut, trunking etc.

 

[montybaber]

Interesting what you wrote on IET about 50% of students failing 2360 science personally one of the mosy demanding exams I have taken in my career (didnt help getting held up and running into exam hall five mins late, nice preperation!).

I think you are right...the enthasis does seem to be train just enough for what you will do in your day job and nthing more.

 

[MikeThePrinter]

can i ask something, is it fair to say scrap the fasttrack courses when some people like myself cant get afford to drop to apprentice rates or cant get an apprenticeship, that would seem like your saying only the young who can actually manage to get an apprenticeship and have no commitments so can afford it should become electricians, surely thats discrimination?

i want to be an electrician, and my only option of a route in is to take a fast track course whilst in my current employment, i know this isnt a quick money making route for me, and the industry is poor and i'l have to gain experiance even with doing a course before becoming "accepted" for full pay employment, and i earn 40k plus a yr at the moment, but its a change that i've always wanted, and i'm really trying to afford to do with the neccersary paycuts etc, bit unfair to just tell me no as there are no options with the fasttrack scrapped???

and if there were to be a clamp down on the courses, wouldnt it work for older people etc who can only do these courses to maybe make the course recognised but only with an employment part with some on the job competant assesments like apprenticeship type ones over time, but being paid a certain amount for doing the course, a certain amount after passing the on the job competant experiance stuff, and then a full rate after so long with employers approval or final assesments etc, so basically an affordable apprenticeship type course??? something like this would meet everyone half way with having to commit more than 12 weeks to become "qualified", apprenticeships not seeming "gone", people having to commit to outlay for the course, which inturn provides an opportunity become an electrician at a certain level of experiance and being able to at least live on the wages.

no emotion above so hope it doesnt read as argumentative!?!?!?!

 

[bazza2541]

can i ask something, is it fair to say scrap the fasttrack courses when some people like myself cant get afford to drop to apprentice rates or cant get an apprenticeship, that would seem like your saying only the young who can actually manage to get an apprenticeship and have no commitments so can afford it should become electricians, surely thats discrimination?

I belive it is fair, the people who are coming off these courses are competing with time served tradesmen for work, they are generally older people who need to maintain a certain lifestyle and have personalities developed to a degree that limits the taking of direction and is unharmonious to life on the sites.

i want to be an electrician, and my only option of a route in is to take a fast track course whilst in my current employment, i know this isnt a quick money making route for me, and the industry is poor and i'l have to gain experiance even with doing a course before becoming "accepted" for full pay employment, and i earn 40k plus a yr at the moment, but its a change that i've always wanted, and i'm really trying to afford to do with the neccersary paycuts etc, bit unfair to just tell me no as there are no options with the fasttrack scrapped???

I am delighted you want to be an electrician, but what of the tradesmen that are already electricians who will have to compete with you for work, or have to work alongside you? Your inexperience may lead to someone getting injured onsite, you made a choiceearlier in life to pursue a career, so did I and all other timeserved tradesmen, your change of mind, belittles my choice and those of all the tradesmen in the field.

and if there were to be a clamp down on the courses, wouldnt it work for older people etc who can only do these courses to maybe make the course recognised but only with an employment part with some on the job competant assesments like apprenticeship type ones over time, but being paid a certain amount for doing the course, a certain amount after passing the on the job competant experiance stuff, and then a full rate after so long with employers approval or final assesments etc, so basically an affordable apprenticeship type course??? something like this would meet everyone half way with having to commit more than 12 weeks to become "qualified", apprenticeships not seeming "gone", people having to commit to outlay for the course, which inturn provides an opportunity become an electrician at a certain level of experiance and being able to at least live on the wages.

I, and all those who served our time in the 'bad-old-days' did not recieve any perks like the ones you want, we did it on our own, off our own backs and out of our own pockets. Being an electrician is not an easy life, most time served tradesmen have knee problems and lower back pain beore the age of forty, these are hard earned crawling through attics and confined spaces, working in awkard positions and spending long hours on step ladders, why are we not entitled to protect our positions?

no emotion above so hope it doesnt read as argumentative!?!?!?!

I hope my reply reads the same way.

 

[MikeThePrinter]

i get the need to protect positions etc, and all i can say is that i would do the time served route could i afford it, and if it was even available, eventually somethings gotta give, as eventually because of appreticeships being unavailable there will in future be a need for electricians, so how are they to exist once u lot are gone?

unfortunately, i didnt chose to become a printer, i had a job after school, then become caught in a money trap and eventually just stumbled into printing, and yes i chose to work which led to get caught in the money trap, but i was 16-18 without a care in the world, dont know if it makes a difference to what you've said, but i dont consider myself an older person at the age of 26 either, i;m not looking for perks, im just looking to fulfil an ambition without me losing my house, i didnt see what u wrote as argumentative, its fair point, and i've said the same in my position when threatened by cheaper options being available to run the machinery i run, its similar to these courses without experiance, in my case these people can run my machine, but have no actual printing experience to use, hence the finished product not 100%, printing is by no means an easy job, shifting upto 10,000kg of paper a shift, working in very confined spaces in ridiculus heat, lots of time served printers suffering from dermatitus,

your point is about maintaining the current time served workforce, my point is there isnt even anything out there to become time served even if people are prepared to do it, and eventually this will catch up with the trade regardless of current climate, so what should people do now if they want to become electricians-even 16yr olds looking to do it the way you did, as at the moment u could try it your way, but only end up with a course qualifcaion like the fasttrack ones, and like the fasttrack ones have no on the job experience(this is aimed at the fact people will still want to become electricians as much as the need for replenishment of electricians who may retire etc no matter how long over time it will take)

 

[zupos40]

Originally Posted by MikeThePrinter
can i ask something, is it fair to say scrap the fasttrack courses when some people like myself cant get afford to drop to apprentice rates or cant get an apprenticeship, that would seem like your saying only the young who can actually manage to get an apprenticeship and have no commitments so can afford it should become electricians, surely thats discrimination?

There should alway be a route for adults who wish to change their careers to join our industry, it just I personally believe that the fast track course are a waste of time and money.

Not every electrician out there did an apprenticeship, lots worked with or for someone as a mate etc, go for it.

One of my mates started by offering his service to an electrician on saturday etc to gain some practical experience while learning at college, he now run his own successful contracting bussiness.

Want the industry does not need is persons who are semi skilled looking to rip customers off rogue trader, I am not suggest for one minute you are, but there are some out there how are.

Good luck hope you have a great future as an qualified competent electrician .

Interesting what you wrote on IET about 50% of students failing 2360 science personally one of the mosy demanding exams I have taken in my career (didnt help getting held up and running into exam hall five mins late, nice preperation!).

I think you are right...the enthasis does seem to be train just enough for what you will do in your day job and nthing more.

That what will happen when you allow a small group of employers to dictate the minimum they require, for the last 5 year generally they have got what they want, i do believe we are following the american route, gerenally where it been so sub divided that someone install the temporaries only, another the trunking, another the conduit, another wires it, another final fixes, then once the job is complete and engiineer comes along to test that it safe for use, and in at least 100,000 case last year it was not.

They earn great pay, but are not electrician, mates, installers, electrical labourers yes, they were astounded that uk electricians where expected to be able to do it all and a bit more.

 

[bazza2541]

Originally Posted by MikeThePrinter
can i ask something, is it fair to say scrap the fasttrack courses when some people like myself cant get afford to drop to apprentice rates or cant get an apprenticeship, that would seem like your saying only the young who can actually manage to get an apprenticeship and have no commitments so can afford it should become electricians, surely thats discrimination?

There should alway be a route for adults who wish to change their careers to join our industry, it just I personally believe that the fast track course are a waste of time and money.

Not every electrician out there did an apprenticeship, lots worked with or for someone as a mate etc, go for it.

One of my mates started by offering his service to an electrician on saturday etc to gain some practical experience while learning at college, he now run his own successful contracting bussiness.

Want the industry does not need is persons who are semi skilled looking to rip customers off rogue trader, I am not suggest for one minute you are, but there are some out there how are.

Good luck hope you have a great future as an qualified competent electrician .



That what will happen when you allow a small group of employers to dictate the minimum they require, for the last 5 year generally they have got what they want, i do believe we are following the american route, gerenally where it been so sub divided that someone install the temporaries only, another the trunking, another the conduit, another wires it, another final fixes, then once the job is complete and engiineer comes along to test that it safe for use, and in at least 100,000 case last year it was not.

They earn great pay, but are not electrician, mates, installers, electrical labourers yes, they were astounded that uk electricians where expected to be able to do it all and a bit more.

Who told you that? Whoever did, its complete horse***t. I have worked in North America as a Union Electrician (IBEW Local 134 Chicago) Without a doubt it was the best model I have ever seen, Local 134 Electricians were in the top 5% wage earners in the country, their work was top class (If you messed up, you fixed on your own time) their ethic was top class (every one gave up 2 free sundays each year to do volantary electrical work for the less well off) . We were looked upon as valuble members of society not the pariahs we are regarded as in Ireland and the UK. And another thing, the best thing was that there was no self certification, the work was certified by City Inspectors over three seperate inspections. We can only ever aspire to be like them.