Are we killing the apprenticeship route into the industry?

[guitargraham]

Hi Boatnik1

if a 47 year old comes along with qualifications and no fear of spiders and mice and happy with hard craft would you give them a chance??????????????

Graham

 

[boatnik1]

Hi Boatnik1

if a 47 year old comes along with qualifications and no fear of spiders and mice and happy with hard craft would you give them a chance??????????????

Graham

There was a time but now two years retired and glad to be away from all the grief of more paperwork than real work. Now I just play around at it as a hobby. I don't do paper.
Only enquiry I have at the moment is an outfit looking for a pat tester on a weekly basis.
The moneys rubbish so I'm not interested in it. Not worth the grief.

 

[Mac]

The only people that are killing the industry are the people who won't employ apprentices,regardless of age.
A rocky start for apprentices | Features | Construction News

 

[silva.foxx]

I had the misfortune to take on three over the years and not one of them lasted the first year, also two Uni. Graduates who were the worst specimens ever put on the planet. One of them lasted two months and the other left after three weeks.

Wouldn't the ideal be to pluck a guy or guys out of college who were there of their own doing?
You know, someone who really wanted to be doing electrics.

My best mate went into college purely to do OND/HND electrical engineering. Whilst there he was approached by a local manufacturing company, Sharp Electronics, who transferred him onto a Modern Apprenticeship and continued him through the four years. He is still with that company after 15 years. What an investment! A loyal servant indeed.

As for me... I was bumming around in an FE college wasting my days away with A-level geography, maths and computing. My ole'man, a machine engineer of over 35 years invited me into work with him for an apprenticeship at the factory he is still at. What a priviledge that was and am really grateful for the opportunity. I am now at a prestigious blue-chip company fiddling with machine brains and arteries! Just like an electrical surgeon and it's fantastic.

This company now takes on apprentice every two years, previously two every four years.

 

[boatnik1]

Wouldn't the ideal be to pluck a guy or guys out of college who were there of their own doing?
You know, someone who really wanted to be doing electrics.

I'm glad I don't have to even think about it any more. Towards the end of my years I started working for a steel company ASW HQ. S.Wales and stayed with them 18 years, till they went bust, and took my pension with them. Had to start all over again until the Big C retired me. A lot of young'uns are either happy to believe the hype and stay in Uni or wherever and reckon on an admin type job at £50k where work is not a part of it, or the others who find it difficult to add, subtract or measure anything without their calculators or laser measure and who cannot take instruction when they bother to turn up at all. Were I to do it again I would certainly be looking for an older person with work experience (at anything) and the relevant certs, to work for a decent wage for a period where I could happily declare him/her time served.

 

[Mac]

Good on yer mate.Totally agree with that.My dad was born in Belfast.Kids today rely too much on technology.They can't think for themselves(computers,mobiles and things along them lines).I know it's progress,but when you ask them to work something out in their head,they don't have a clue

 

[boatnik1]

Mac. Have to admit that when I served my time, calculators hadn't been invented and I worked out PFs on Motors etc on a slide-rule, ya don't see many of those about these days. I wouldn't have a clue how to start useing one of those again after all these years. That was in '61.
Given some of the spelling we see on these forums (and I know mine is a long way from perfect) I shudder to think what some of the job certs and forms look like. Maybe it's just as well that tick-boxes are the thing these days

 

[saveloy]

I've given youngsters a start a couple of times and what I've noticed is they have a complete inability to think for themselves. I wouldn't expect anyone (with no experience)to pile straight in and know what to do, but I've found that unless you are telling them what to at all times they just stop and wait to be told.
It becomes very hard work thinking for them as well. I'm not talking about mentally demanding work either just general labouring. They just seem to lack motivation. All you want is someone to say whats next or to look round and tidy up or just show a general interest.

I don't think for a minute that every single youngster is like that, but I do think they are mollycoddled a lot more in school and this shows up in the working world. I really fear for the construction industry in the coming years.

 

[boatnik1]

I've given youngsters a start a couple of times and what I've noticed is they have a complete inability to think for themselves. I wouldn't expect anyone (with no experience)to pile straight in and know what to do, but I've found that unless you are telling them what to at all times they just stop and wait to be told.
It becomes very hard work thinking for them as well. I'm not talking about mentally demanding work either just general labouring. They just seem to lack motivation. All you want is someone to say whats next or to look round and tidy up or just show a general interest.

I don't think for a minute that every single youngster is like that, but I do think they are mollycoddled a lot more in school and this shows up in the working world. I really fear for the construction industry in the coming years.

Don't worry about it. When the upturn comes there will be thousands of brand new workers in all the trades fresh from Uni or training centers all ready to take up their new jobs wearing their designer gear and with their brand new screwdriver sets and plier sets from Poundworld. Gawd help us.

 

[Mac]

Mac. Have to admit that when I served my time, calculators hadn't been invented and I worked out PFs on Motors etc on a slide-rule, ya don't see many of those about these days. I wouldn't have a clue how to start useing one of those again after all these years. That was in '61.
Given some of the spelling we see on these forums (and I know mine is a long way from perfect) I shudder to think what some of the job certs and forms look like. Maybe it's just as well that tick-boxes are the thing these days

Know what you mean mate.I used to take my dads slide rule to school,back in the early 80s.No computers to work things out.All pencil and paper and having to work things out in your head.

 

[electricAl]

Don't worry about it. When the upturn comes there will be thousands of brand new workers in all the trades fresh from Uni or training centers all ready to take up their new jobs wearing their designer gear and with their brand new screwdriver sets and plier sets from Poundworld. Gawd help us.

Spoken tongue-in-cheek, i know, but your prediction is uncomfortably close to the truth i fear...

 

[Mac]

Don't worry about it. When the upturn comes there will be thousands of brand new workers in all the trades fresh from Uni or training centers all ready to take up their new jobs wearing their designer gear and with their brand new screwdriver sets and plier sets from Poundworld. Gawd help us.

That was spot on,and you hit the nail right on the head.

 

[boatnik1]

And when they see that they might have to get their hands dirty they'll quickly move sideways into the drug trade or somesuch to get the money to set up their own sparking business and employ all us old codgers who can do the work while they drive around their old Uni mates to have business lunches and work out how they can fleece the public/their workers and suppliers before going bankrupt with a suitable nestegg in the Bahamas. (As if they would)

 

[Doomed]

I do feel somewhat sorry for the present generation of Uni students. It is no longer a prestigious thing to do, something only achievable by people with brains, instead of the 1 in 50 people going to Uni it is now 1 in 3.

The government has devalued the degree system and yet still let students believe it is the path to wealth and fortune it used to be.

I have to deal with alot of students doing part time work while they are at Uni, and in the last 20 years the standard has seriously declined.

But this is an issue for another thread, probably another forum infact

There are just too many people living on this island of ours now.

 

[gazc]

The way this game is going there wont be any apprenticeships its becoming like the university system where you have to pay for your own training the trouble is training out of books dosn`t prepare you for what its really like. working with your hands cant be learnt out of books.
Iv been a electrician for 20 years now and i cant believe the standard of some of the new guys coming into the game in the old days you worked as an apprentice and a spark checked your work. give these guys a set of drawings and take a look at the bafflement in their faces. I feel sorry for them spending all that money trying to better themselves and having to work for nothing and i mean nothing just to try and get some experience there must be some really disillusioned fast track sparks out there at the min god knows i becoming really disillussioned with the whole game as well

 

[colinhills]

i do agree with what you are saying. i have taken one of these train crouses and payed out 5 grand + but still got no experince in the pratical side and am looking hard but none about. its is as you say i should have 17th reg and part p and testing by end of aug. i have part p now and ecs exam on 13 july but have no experince of wiring on more than 2 times so no good i think and i think these crouse should do more of this and how it put wiring into a aready wired place. but hay thats just me, even offering to work of free is not getting me anywhere and i still cannot belive that people would not want some to help them in a job for free and means job could be finished quicker means more money as now can do more jobs. i must be wrong but hay

 

[Spudnik]

..... even offering to work of free is not getting me anywhere and i still cannot belive that people would not want some to help them in a job for free and means job could be finished quicker means more money as now can do more jobs. i must be wrong but hay

In a way you are correct, however, what you must also realise is that taking on even free labour can cost a contractor in time as he will need to check up on what you have done and also keep one eye on you whilst you are working.

 

[Mac]

In a way you are correct, however, what you must also realise is that taking on even free labour can cost a contractor in time as he will need to check up on what you have done and also keep one eye on you whilst you are working.

Sorry mate,isn't that part of the learning process.Sounds good to me

 

[Mikeymike77]

I've sent of 41 CV's to employers and no luck

The only thing I got was a part time job doing small jobs for a semi retired electrican which helps alittle because he teachs me abit theory so it's not all bad

I'll be doing C & G lvl 2 in sep but I need an apprenticeship to gain experience which will get me an NVQ lvl 2

 

[Spudnik]

Sorry mate,isn't that part of the learning process.Sounds good to me

Indeed it is, but i am generalising.

 

[boatnik1]

The part that's frequently forgotten about is that a spark taking on an apprentice, even a freebee worker increases the liability on the insurance and leaves the spark liable also to include employers liability cover just in the event the new start gets hurt either through his own fault or by accident, or just because the new start feels like a holiday and the knowledge that ambulance chaser lawyers will assist them every way they can.

 

[adam.h]

I got suckered into one of those fast track courses, mainly because my local college had closed down. I really do wish I had done it at a college at least but there is so many things you dont learn unless your actually working. I'm slowly trying to get my experience up until I have enough so that I can finally make the change over. But its hard at the moment. Even doing work for free seems to be hard to get.

 

[leonard290]

absolutely.what ***** me of is these EU directives regards new regs etc.count up the money that all electricians have to pay city & guilds.millions.guess where goes. yep Brussells

 

[Marty48]

This is a big problem in the industry. You have to pass a test to drive a car ,practise medicine, etc.
All you have as a minimum skill level in electrical trade is "must be competent" in some regs book. Had long running discussion with SHAKEY on this point. There should be a minimum of C+G exam passed before you can play with electrics. WHAT YOU GUYS THINK???

 

[boatnik1]

This is a big problem in the industry. You have to pass a test to drive a car ,practise medicine, etc.
All you have as a minimum skill level in electrical trade is "must be competent" in some regs book. Had long running discussion with SHAKEY on this point. There should be a minimum of C+G exam passed before you can play with electrics. WHAT YOU GUYS THINK???

What you argue for is precisely what is wrong and destroying the trade.
There are those who have a whole bunch of paper qualifications who shouldn't be allowed to hold a screwdriver let alone use one, and these are the same people who with their "qualifications" get their ticket to practice and have'nt a clue what practical work is about, and if they live to be 100 will never be competent.

Practical work should take precidence with the knowledge based qualifications taking a poor second place. Practical experience is of much more value as methods and their reasons should be picked up from your instructor/ experienced spark. Should a practical spark need to work out calcs. etc then this knowledge can be aquired as and when required from the various manuals but practice can only be found with experience and no matter what qualifications you have you should'nt be playing with electric until the practical end is sorted.

If you know of a book or qualification that provides you with the practical experience that five years experience on the tools gives you I would be pleased to know of it.

 

[guitargraham]

All sounds like "sour grapes to me" dont forget you can take a week fast pass to get your driving licence? then be allowed out on to the highways and motorways!

I know plenty of timed served tradesmen who are "COWBOYS" and only after a fast buck, they sit in the pub gloating.
I have a garage full of tools tools inclucing screwdrivers and i know how to use every 1 of them, and if you saw my house you'd agree.

Of the people i have meet on my training the younger ones want to work for a company and feel the only to get there is by doing this and it makes them stand out from the ones who want the company to pay to train them.

The older ones seem to want to add to what they already do and others like myself who want to work for them selves and offer ecletrics as part of the service.

Things like this happen in all walks of life but its the people who pay the cowboys who are to blame, because they want to save money.

I,ve worked in the retail motor industry for the passed 23 years and the amount of people who have bought a car/van off the street or autotrader to save a few quid and then find out its stolen/written off/or still on HP is unbelievable.

So lay off the people who want to better themselves and blame the muppets trying to save money by using COWBOYS.

Sorry for the rant, but i am studying hard to get to where i want to be.

Regards

Graham

 

[Risteard]

If you know of a qualification that provides you with the practical experience that five years experience on the tools gives you I would be pleased to know of it.

Surely the whole point of the NVQ (incorporating the AM2 as well) is to prove practical experience.

 

[montybaber]

I think we all know that half of the NVQ is jackanory, I was at college last year with lads trying to complete their NVQ and it was laughable the amount of lying that goes on both from the students and from the college staff!

Im not against NVQs as such but I dont think they prove competency on their own, they serve a purpose to give a practical assessment of students although this should be along with site experience also.

With no apprenticeship/work experience full time then practical competency is hard to measure, when i was apprentice regular meetings was held with my engineers and i was assessed continually all this was logged and I was deemed competent on completion of set criteria set out by my company and my particular apprenticeship ( i was also sent on work placements in different fields to learn a range of skills)

Although I agree practical experience is important I feel qualifications are vital to show an individuals knowledge and commitment to their trade, Its all very well saying that I have no certs but I can wire a generic house quicker than any sparx i know but put them out of their comfort zone ie industrial fault/installation etc then the qualified will blow him away ( in my experience I should add) this industry is so diverse that a range of knowledge is required to become a well rounded electrician, lets face it wiring houses day in day out covers little of what we spent years learning about at college...i still like the fact i learnt it though!

Sorry for the essay glad this thread is still going and its interesting to read, it has remained good natured to a degree and please remember as the originator the thread was expressing my concerns that opertunities to get a traditional route into the industry were getting sparse and my dismay at the poor sods having to pay extorsionate fees to attend courses with little chance of a career at the end

 

[gazghost]

im new on here and just starting my level 3 2330 on day release. I lost my mature trainee job as the credit crunch hit. Ive managed to find part time work and just paid 700 quid for my final year. that all said and done must plod on. Whats really got my goat though is that ive just been shown an advert that reckons for just 800 quid you can do a four day course to become a domestic installer. I know my qualification covers industrial aswell and these di`s will would never get a job in that side of things. but how can the nic/city and guilds etc justify that they`re trying to weed out cowboys when as far as i can see they are the very ones promoting them ! < rant over >

 

[thepurple1]

We have 6 apprentices in our company in different years there are only 2 that are any good.
The time keeping is poor attendance at college is also poor. We also have a couple of older trainees that have put themselves through college, There attitude is much better and a more mature outlook