Bonding to gas and 544.1.2

[The Ghost]

Called today as client wanted boiler serviced/fixed. Gas safe man looked at meter boxed outside and said "No bonding! No fix!" Called me to assess. So...Clearly bonding x 2 are leaving the CU. Correct size. Test to water and Gas outside and readings below/within 0.05 ohms continuity. Suggesting there was indeed bonding connected as a previous electrician had confirmed the same. My consideration is looking at the above reg it says ...or at the point of entry to the building... Now how do you read that? Does it mean
A: the external point of entry
B: the internal point of entry
I have always assumed it is a matter of where it enters the building inside. Therefore, as in this case the bonding is probably connected under the floorboards inside the front living room as readings do indicate, and evidence of bonding cables leaving CU. What is your view?
Anyway it is clear that we must provide bonding to the outside gas meter so that work can go ahead and satisfy the gas man. Seems a bit silly to me but what else can you do.

 

[Nigel]

Regs say point of entry, nothing about inside or out.

It has not entered until it is inside.

 

[rolyberkin]

It makes a difference where the bond is if you are trying to do an R2 test and you have to go outside the property to get to the connection. Installing the cable outside is also more work for the electrician and additional cost for extra cable. Therefore your claim that it doesn't matter whether it's bonded inside or outside doesn't hold water. Inside is easier and cheaper.

1. It's not an R2 test is it?
2. Unless my regs book is different from others it actually states-
544.1.2 - The main equipotential bonding connection to any gas, water or other service shall be made as near as practicable to the point of entry of that service into the premises, Where there is an insulating section or insert at that point, or there is a meter, the connection shall be made to the consumer's hard metal pipework and before any branch pipework. Where practicable the connection shall be made within 600mm of the meter outlet or at the union point of entry to the building if the meter is external"
3. It doesn't as far as I can see mention, 'more work for the electrician' or 'additional cost of extra cable' or I don't think 'inside is easier and cheaper'
I rest my case.

 

[NDG Elecs]

if you put the bonding under the floor boards to the copper pipes there is more likely that the bonding clips might rust with moisture .

I disagree there Buzz. There are plenty of external meter cabinets I see with missing covers and are much more likely to 'feel' the elements. Also if you use the correct grade of 951 clamp there should be less of an issue still.

I have had this issue once where routing the 10mm would have been a pita to take it externally. I terminated it just inside at the point of entry into the building itself. Left a big label saying 'plumbers are t00ssers" to grab their attention and then another underneath saying that the bonding was upto scratch with BS7671 2015 and where the pipe was bonded.

 

[NDG Elecs]

Not to mention the gas regs state that the gas pipe must always be bonded, if you test and it's not extraneous then there's no need to bond it at all, same goes for plastic water incomers.
I bet the gas guys would have a fit if you explained that to them though.
Anyway, that document posted by Murdoch only says they need to notify in writing, doesn't say they should refuse to proceed.

Is it not the case that even if the incoming gas is fed in plastic, that the actual internal gas pipework being metallic does require bonding still. I seem to recall reading that in the regs approx 4 years or so ago. If I recall correctly it applied specifically to gas but not to all metallic water pipework (even when the incoming water was plastic too).

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Is it not the case that even if the incoming gas is fed in plastic, that the actual internal gas pipework being metallic does require bonding still. I seem to recall reading that in the regs approx 4 years or so ago. If I recall correctly it applied specifically to gas but not to all metallic water pipework (even when the incoming water was plastic too).

The requirement is to bond extraneous conductive-parts.
Plastic is non-conductive, so doesn’t require bonding.
Metallic pipework inside the building is not extraneous, so also doesn’t require bonding.
When you look up the definition of extraneous conductive-part, it says something about not being a part of the electrical installation which may introduce a potential (might be introduce a difference in potential).
Determination of whether the pipework introduces a potential (or a difference in potential) would indicate whether it requires bonding.

I’m pretty certain this has been covered a number of times.

Use an IR tester to determine whether there is any continuity between the installation earth and the pipework and use a low ohm meter to determine whether any continuity found is reliable.

Below 0.05 ohms is considered reliably connected and doesn’t require bonding.

Anything between 0.05 ohms and 23 kohms would be considered as being in contact with earth, though there are different opinions regarding the higher end as to whether it would require bonding.

22k ohms, 1667 ohms or 667 ohms, all dependant on the resistance of an average human body (1 kohm) and the 50v considered as being safe.

 

[Rosco]

It has not entered until it is inside.

That’s what she said

 

[Midwest]

Shirley the reason to bond as per reg 544.1.2 is that if some plumbing bod comes at a later date and re-routes the gas pipe (metal), the gas pipe is more likely to remain bonded, than if original pipe was bonded under the floorboards half a mile away. And don't say its down to the new plumber to make sure, 'cos it ruins my argument. So the nearer to where the gas pipe becomes metal after the meter, the better (if its extraneous of course).

 

[KentSparky]

1. It's not an R2 test is it?
2. Unless my regs book is different from others it actually states-
544.1.2 - The main equipotential bonding connection to any gas, water or other service shall be made as near as practicable to the point of entry of that service into the premises, Where there is an insulating section or insert at that point, or there is a meter, the connection shall be made to the consumer's hard metal pipework and before any branch pipework. Where practicable the connection shall be made within 600mm of the meter outlet or at the union point of entry to the building if the meter is external"
3. It doesn't as far as I can see mention, 'more work for the electrician' or 'additional cost of extra cable' or I don't think 'inside is easier and cheaper'
I rest my case.

Regarding points 1,2 and 3. (Which you have separated and quoted simultaneously so I will answer all 3 with a single reply .
1.
I never said it was an R2 test did i?
R2 was mentioned as it is going to be more practical and convenient for the verification of the main bond in the future,and when installing equipment you should do so with due consideration for the cost,maintenance and convenience of the client. Therefore bond it inside and yes it definitely does make a difference if it's in or out. Installation work is primarily for safety and convenience and you should bear this in mind at all times.

 

[Intoelectrics]

Regarding points 1,2 and 3. (Which you have separated and quoted simultaneously so I will answer all 3 with a single reply .
1.
I never said it was an R2 test did i?
R2 was mentioned as it is going to be more practical and convenient for the verification of the main bond in the future,and when installing equipment you should do so with due consideration for the cost,maintenance and convenience of the client. Therefore bond it inside and yes it definitely does make a difference if it's in or out. Installation work is primarily for safety and convenience and you should bear this in mind at all times.

What if the gas pipe is inaccessible for most part inside the building but readily accessible at point of entry outside but within the gas meter enclosure? I have come across this situation many times. For me the obvious and most convenient answer, in these situations, is to bond at external point of entry.

 

[buzzlightyear]

What if the gas pipe is inaccessible for most part inside the building but readily accessible at point of entry outside but within the gas meter enclosure? I have come across this situation many times. For me the obvious and most convenient answer, in these situations, is to bond at external point of entry.

then you bond to the pipe work out side has long you can get to it.

 

[rolyberkin]

Regarding points 1,2 and 3. (Which you have separated and quoted simultaneously so I will answer all 3 with a single reply .
1.
I never said it was an R2 test did i?
R2 was mentioned as it is going to be more practical and convenient for the verification of the main bond in the future,and when installing equipment you should do so with due consideration for the cost,maintenance and convenience of the client. Therefore bond it inside and yes it definitely does make a difference if it's in or out. Installation work is primarily for safety and convenience and you should bear this in mind at all times.

Really?

 

[KentSparky]

What if the gas pipe is inaccessible for most part inside the building but readily accessible at point of entry outside but within the gas meter enclosure? I have come across this situation many times. For me the obvious and most convenient answer, in these situations, is to bond at external point of entry.

You would just use your common sense as you would in any other scenario.
The instances where it is easier to bond outside are the exception to the rule

 

[KentSparky]

Really?

Yes really
Some of us actually type what we mean

 

[Midwest]

With the vast majority of new builds with meter boxes or enclosures (circa 1970's) installed on the outside, the only practicable way is in the box itself. Is that inside or outside?

 

[KentSparky]

Really?

If you find it hard to accept that it's easier,cheaper and more convenient to bond inside then you haven't ho

With the vast majority of new builds with meter boxes or enclosures (circa 1970's) installed on the outside, the only practicable way is in the box itself. Is that inside or outside?

The gas pipe that is outside in the meter box has got to enter the property at some point so the most practical position to bond the pipe would be on the inside of the property 'at the point of entry'. How the hell is drilling a hole and going outside to install the clamp 'the only practicable way'??? How is a job that takes longer preferable to a quicker method? (Unless you are on dayrate)

 

[Midwest]

The gas pipe that is outside in the meter box has got to enter the property at some point so the most practical position to bond the pipe would be on the inside of the property 'at the point of entry'. How the hell is drilling a hole and going outside to install the clamp 'the only practicable way'??? How is a job that takes longer preferable to a quicker method? (Unless you are on dayrate)

Like a lot of properties in such situ's the gas pipe is not always accessible on t'other side of the wall where the meter is mounted. Can't really see how either way would take any longer or would be quicker.

 

[Midwest]

In any case, these two chaps agree with me;

 

[KentSparky]

Like a lot of properties in such situ's the gas pipe is not always accessible on t'other side of the wall where the meter is mounted. Can't really see how either way would take any longer or would be quicker.

Inside is nearer to the consumer unit and you can't see how it makes any difference to use less cable instead of using more cable? Seriously???

 

[buzzlightyear]

most of the gas mains are in plastic to the new property and most bonding cable are feed out side to them .

 

[Midwest]

Seriously???

Why not connect the bond in the meter box, its where most people will look to find it in the future.

 

[buzzlightyear]

these two chaps agree with me

are the chaps kinder ins ,Westy

 

[Nigel]

With the vast majority of new builds with meter boxes or enclosures (circa 1970's) installed on the outside, the only practicable way is in the box itself. Is that inside or outside?

Personally I think it is outside. Not really sure how anybody could say any different.

 

[Midwest]

are the chaps kinder ins ,Westy

You have me disadvantage ag'in Buzz

 

[Midwest]

Personally I think it is outside. Not really sure how anybody could say any different.

Doooh. Why's everyone so serious today.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Personally I think it is outside

in the Corner left had side below the meter .

 

[buzzlightyear]

Doooh. Why's everyone so serious today.

not me WESTY ,is CRUNCHY Friday.

 

[Midwest]

in the Corner left had side below the meter .

Still can't see nutting!

 

[johnduffell]

use less cable

gas mains are in plastic

can't see nutting!

Use no cable on a plastic non extraneous main and you won't see anything on the bill! Winner

 

[Ian1981]

Gas meters are like all electric meters ,mounted in an external meter box on new builds (that I work on)
If you didn’t connect it to the pipe in the box the only other practical place is the boiler as the pipework entering the dwelling is buried in the wall unless the meter box is on the outside garage wall and is visible in the garage. Boilers are usually if not in a utility then in the kitchen.
Nobody wants to see a green and yellow wire underneath the boiler onto the Pipework as it will look hideous.
Therfore it is bonded at the meter which is perfectly acceptable

 

[rolyberkin]

Doooh. Why's everyone so serious today.

Serious time over, it's beer o'clock!