Could really do with some help!

[stevie_sausage]

On Monday just gone I carried out and Electrical Installation Condition report for the company I work for their were 13 circuits across 2 C.U 5 of which were 20a radials across a rcd controlled c.u for E7, the boards were wylex type and were fitted in Oct 2009 I did the test everything was in acceptable condition apart from a couple of C2/C3 notifications. sadly, the property caught fire that night, thank God the family was safe and got out! the customer was awoke by smoke alarms triggering at about 1 am. the boards have completely disintergrated ( I've not seen them only what I have been told) only remaining is copper no plastic enclosure and none of the plastic on mcb's etc, supplier has already removed the metering equipment . the next day my company sent a company who audit samples of our work that we carry out back to the property to re-do the test to check their results were in line with mine and that the test had been carried out correctly. They where. having spoken to my employers they want me to come back to work but obviously dont want me back on the tools until they have finished their investigation. However they are not going to get a forensic specialist in to determine the cause of the fire, though I want and would welcome them to, but they wont and this is where I am hoping some of you could possibly help me....



I am aware from looking over the last few days (hindsight is a wonderful thing) that around the 2009-10 Electrium gave a recall to faulty (wylex) mcb's that could and have in some cases caught fire, I have seen a few posts on-line where unfortunately they have, if anyone has come across them causing fires could you please post what happened and how fast the fire burnt through the board. the customer went to bed at 11pm monday night and as stated was awoke at 1am so this gives a two hour window for this to mainifest itself into a full blown fire, if it was surely you would have seen some smoke or s/alarm would have triggered in the hallway were the fuseboard is situated if it was 'slow burning' also customer would have surely got the legendary fishy smell throughout the day which would really have caused alarm with me only finishing the test at 1:50pm on the monday. I cannot rule out a mistake on my part unless forensics are brought in however having been in this industry for near 20 years I have never known 2x fuseboards go completely on fire & disintergrate within 2 hours after smouldering for 9 due to a loose connection ( please enlighten me if you have) again if it was loose connections would the power have not started cutting out depending on what was loose etc (testers said everything that remained was tight btw) I'm really at a loss here and could really do with some help as a bad name in this industry sure travels quick. thank you all.

 

[monkster]

Hi mate a few years ago company that i was working at issued memos stating that they had problems with wylex units with thermal damage,we was asked to use a torque screwdriver to tighten,looks like you may have disturbed a loose connection who knows,easier said than done try not too beat yourself up over it.

 

[Sintra]

The time that this happened would point to the time that the E7 would kick in. Still sounds like a loose connection to me. Hope it all pans out ok for you mate

 

[stevie_sausage]

thats the thing though, if it was a loose connection how & why that fast??? when the E7 only kicks in at 12 brigade called at 1:04am? 1 hour 4 mins both boards on fire. baffles me.

 

[onions1066]

thats the thing though, if it was a loose connection how & why that fast??? when the E7 only kicks in at 12 brigade called at 1:04am? 1 hour 4 mins both boards on fire. baffles me.

All storage heaters coming on that is some decent load, so it all depends how loose it was.

 

[MDJ]

Sorry to hear the bad news, I hope things work out for you, I suppose a loose connection could be one guess at what happened, sometimes disconnecting cables to test them and then reconnecting them may leave a loose connection, and under load, well anythings possible, however it may be total coincidence, I hope so pal, fingers crossed for you.

 

[stevie_sausage]

at a maximum it could only be 40a as the storage heaters where two small and two medium, plus a immirsion element which are about 3kw so if i were to say around 850w ea for two heaters and around 1500 ea for two medium heaters plus the three kw immersion I'm looking at about just under 34 amps. only thing i can feel could cause that would be the actual meter tails and
i checked them as part of the test.

 

[Gavin A]

I know what your saying Old timer but the thing is the auditors who did the retest said everything was tight on what was left of the board, but in your opinion have you ever known two boards to go up in less than 12 hours without their being forewarning etc thats what is baffling me Ive come across stuff thats burnt out due to loose connections etc and its been in for years also even when I have replaced fuseboards in the past its not uncommon to have found 25mm tails just fall out of the bottom of the isolator yet theyve done no harm for as long as the boards been in.

so, the auditors were last in?

buck stops with them then doesn't it?

more chance that they didn't tighten something back up after the retest, than that you didn't and they also missed it IMO.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I think auditors went in after the fire

 

[Gavin A]

I think auditors went in after the fire

ah, right. I didn't see how they'd have been able to do the retest mentioned in the OP if that was the order of things, but you're probably right.

 

[trev]

The way I understand it normally to work is that the forensics people are called in by the fire service if there's any doubt as to the cause of the fire. Most of the time if they can't find a cause they put it down to an electrical fault BUT given that you carried out an EICR that day and everything checked out fine (and owing to the way you come across as a pretty conscientious guy) I doubt they'll just stick it in that box. If you were to make enough noise the fire service might be forced to bring in an investigator but this whole thing smells very fishy (no pun intended) to me. The place gets a clean bill of health then goes up in flames, there's something very wrong here and I doubt very much it's with you. Hope you get this sorted in your favour mate, keeps us informed as to how it pans out.

 

[Des 56]

but this whole thing smells very fishy (no pun intended) to me.

I think trev summed up the doubts and the way forward well

Another thing for all of us to bare in mind, the Eicr now puts situations such as this firmly in the electricians hands and

The Eicr now asks for the condition of the suppliers cable ,metering equipment etc
Surely this is a pass the buck tick box designed in part to absolve the supplier of what should be their responsibility,that buck being passed to the little man once again

 

[trev]

There's the big question though Des isn't it? The suppliers gear is their toys and we are not supposed to play with them. How can we then make a legitimate comment about their condition? If we can't play with them how are we supposed to know if they're in good condition or not?.....Obviously we do to a large point but I'm sure you'll see what I'm getting at

 

[Des 56]

There's the big question though Des isn't it? The suppliers gear is their toys and we are not supposed to play with them. How can we then make a legitimate comment about their condition? If we can't play with them how are we supposed to know if they're in good condition or not?.....Obviously we do to a large point but I'm sure you'll see what I'm getting at

I agree,we are not in any way in a position to tick those boxes with anything other than a simple visual observation,yet our lords and masters put it there and in a very specific way

How can we then make a legitimate comment about their condition?

I see little reason for its inclusion other than where an addition is being made and doubt exists
They love to state its their equipment and we should not mess with it
Its their gear,their responsibility,but these tick boxes could work against the spark in these situations

 

[trev]

I agree,we are not in any way in a position to tick those boxes with anything other than a simple visual observation,yet our lords and masters put it there and in a very specific way

How can we then make a legitimate comment about their condition?

I see little reason for its inclusion other than where an addition is being made and doubt exists
They love to state its their equipment and we should not mess with it
Its their gear,their responsibility,but these tick boxes could work against the spark in these situations

My point exactly, their gear, their rules, they should be checking it not us.

 

[ipf]

My point exactly, their gear, their rules, they should be checking it not us.

Aye, but the only time they'll check it is after an emergency call....usually by us.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Boycott those tick boxes?

 

[kingeri]

Going back to the Wylex MCB recall, I have seen two instances of these faulty breakers in action. Both were VERY slow burners, there was clear evidence of melting over a long period of time. I think you would have seen evidence of a fault during the EICR if these were to blame, I can't see them just going up in such a short space of time.

 

[odawire]

On Monday just gone I carried out and Electrical Installation Condition report for the company I work for their were 13 circuits across 2 C.U 5 of which were 20a radials across a rcd controlled c.u for E7, the boards were wylex type and were fitted in Oct 2009 I did the test everything was in acceptable condition apart from a couple of C2/C3 notifications. sadly, the property caught fire that night, thank God the family was safe and got out! the customer was awoke by smoke alarms triggering at about 1 am. the boards have completely disintergrated ( I've not seen them only what I have been told) only remaining is copper no plastic enclosure and none of the plastic on mcb's etc, supplier has already removed the metering equipment . the next day my company sent a company who audit samples of our work that we carry out back to the property to re-do the test to check their results were in line with mine and that the test had been carried out correctly. They where. having spoken to my employers they want me to come back to work but obviously dont want me back on the tools until they have finished their investigation. However they are not going to get a forensic specialist in to determine the cause of the fire, though I want and would welcome them to, but they wont and this is where I am hoping some of you could possibly help me....



I am aware from looking over the last few days (hindsight is a wonderful thing) that around the 2009-10 Electrium gave a recall to faulty (wylex) mcb's that could and have in some cases caught fire, I have seen a few posts on-line where unfortunately they have, if anyone has come across them causing fires could you please post what happened and how fast the fire burnt through the board. the customer went to bed at 11pm monday night and as stated was awoke at 1am so this gives a two hour window for this to mainifest itself into a full blown fire, if it was surely you would have seen some smoke or s/alarm would have triggered in the hallway were the fuseboard is situated if it was 'slow burning' also customer would have surely got the legendary fishy smell throughout the day which would really have caused alarm with me only finishing the test at 1:50pm on the monday. I cannot rule out a mistake on my part unless forensics are brought in however having been in this industry for near 20 years I have never known 2x fuseboards go completely on fire & disintergrate within 2 hours after smouldering for 9 due to a loose connection ( please enlighten me if you have) again if it was loose connections would the power have not started cutting out depending on what was loose etc (testers said everything that remained was tight btw) I'm really at a loss here and could really do with some help as a bad name in this industry sure travels quick. thank you all.

Hey sounds like a bit of a nightmare mate, you say there were some C2 recommendations? therefore it was in unsatisfactory condition, so I don't think you should worry, if it gets legal; you told them on the day of the fire that they're installation was unsafe, must just be a case of really bad timing. or if something fishy is going on they've played it totally wrong.

 

[ElectriCall]

thats the thing mate, I dont mind getting pinned for it if its my fault like I said I'd rather know as my confidence for doing this job now has taken a hell of a knock. In terms of the meter being tampered again it is a possibility customer was complaining that she spends 55 pounds per week on Electricity she is on benefits not that that should be an indication of someones honesty in obtaining 'free energy' I have to be careful to not start my own crusade of blaming the customer etc as then I'm no worse than the people who are trying to prove it was me. however it is a bit circumstancial that wylex mcb's could cause fire, the board was fitted oct 09 I test it and that night it decides to go up like a piece of sugar paper.

Is this a council house?

 

[telectrix]

£55/week on lecky????? what's growing in the attic?