Could really do with some help!

[stevie_sausage]

On Monday just gone I carried out and Electrical Installation Condition report for the company I work for their were 13 circuits across 2 C.U 5 of which were 20a radials across a rcd controlled c.u for E7, the boards were wylex type and were fitted in Oct 2009 I did the test everything was in acceptable condition apart from a couple of C2/C3 notifications. sadly, the property caught fire that night, thank God the family was safe and got out! the customer was awoke by smoke alarms triggering at about 1 am. the boards have completely disintergrated ( I've not seen them only what I have been told) only remaining is copper no plastic enclosure and none of the plastic on mcb's etc, supplier has already removed the metering equipment . the next day my company sent a company who audit samples of our work that we carry out back to the property to re-do the test to check their results were in line with mine and that the test had been carried out correctly. They where. having spoken to my employers they want me to come back to work but obviously dont want me back on the tools until they have finished their investigation. However they are not going to get a forensic specialist in to determine the cause of the fire, though I want and would welcome them to, but they wont and this is where I am hoping some of you could possibly help me....



I am aware from looking over the last few days (hindsight is a wonderful thing) that around the 2009-10 Electrium gave a recall to faulty (wylex) mcb's that could and have in some cases caught fire, I have seen a few posts on-line where unfortunately they have, if anyone has come across them causing fires could you please post what happened and how fast the fire burnt through the board. the customer went to bed at 11pm monday night and as stated was awoke at 1am so this gives a two hour window for this to mainifest itself into a full blown fire, if it was surely you would have seen some smoke or s/alarm would have triggered in the hallway were the fuseboard is situated if it was 'slow burning' also customer would have surely got the legendary fishy smell throughout the day which would really have caused alarm with me only finishing the test at 1:50pm on the monday. I cannot rule out a mistake on my part unless forensics are brought in however having been in this industry for near 20 years I have never known 2x fuseboards go completely on fire & disintergrate within 2 hours after smouldering for 9 due to a loose connection ( please enlighten me if you have) again if it was loose connections would the power have not started cutting out depending on what was loose etc (testers said everything that remained was tight btw) I'm really at a loss here and could really do with some help as a bad name in this industry sure travels quick. thank you all.

 

[NDG Elecs]

Hope you are exonerated if you are not at fault mate.

Cannot help you regarding any knowledge of past fires caused by the MCB but I hope you mentioned these on the EICR. An awareness of the issues with these MCBs ie the recall, should be something to look out for/make a note of when carrying out an EICR in my opinion. Though it would be easy to overlook it also.

Could be an issue with the E7 NSH maybe, due to the time at which it happened.

Have you googled fires wylex electrium mcb.

Good luck.

 

[GMES]

Hi Stevie I can't imagine how your feeling right now, but stay positive mate it sounds like you did everything right, and also having 20 years experience you must know what your doing.
this just sounds like really bad timing, chin up.
And also this just hammers home the point that everyone carrying out testing work really need to know what they are doing and should never take sshort cuts or fabricate test results.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I don't suppose you got the serial no's off the 6/10/16 A mcbs did you....

 

[stevie_sausage]

I don't suppose you got the serial no's off the 6/10/16 A mcbs did you....

If only mate, If only!

 

[Geoffsd]

Yeah, Good Luck.

 

[onions1066]

Sausage is there a chance the meter cold of been tampered? If not you've got to be looking at a loose connection, but if the board is melted they aren't going to be able to prove anything looking at that. The eicr is only as good as the time you do it anything could of happened after you'd left. It will be a game of pin the tail on the donkey just don't stand still too long so you get it pinned on your arse .

 

[stevie_sausage]

thats the thing mate, I dont mind getting pinned for it if its my fault like I said I'd rather know as my confidence for doing this job now has taken a hell of a knock. In terms of the meter being tampered again it is a possibility customer was complaining that she spends 55 pounds per week on Electricity she is on benefits not that that should be an indication of someones honesty in obtaining 'free energy' I have to be careful to not start my own crusade of blaming the customer etc as then I'm no worse than the people who are trying to prove it was me. however it is a bit circumstancial that wylex mcb's could cause fire, the board was fitted oct 09 I test it and that night it decides to go up like a piece of sugar paper.

 

[onions1066]

thats the thing mate, I dont mind getting pinned for it if its my fault like I said I'd rather know as my confidence for doing this job now has taken a hell of a knock. In terms of the meter being tampered again it is a possibility customer was complaining that she spends 55 pounds per week on Electricity she is on benefits not that that should be an indication of someones honesty in obtaining 'free energy' I have to be careful to not start my own crusade of blaming the customer etc as then I'm no worse than the people who are trying to prove it was me. however it is a bit circumstancial that wylex mcb's could cause fire, the board was fitted oct 09 I test it and that night it decides to go up like a piece of sugar paper.

I have seen a Wylex go up when the neutral link was loose in the bar. Before I ever put a lid back on a board even if I've only touched 1 circuit I tighten everything just out of habit. Last week a friend of mine over rided the thermostat in a red ring shower after advice from technical, lets just say it was the same outcome as yours. But only bathroom and landing destroyed. They can't pin it on him because he was following there advice. Just stick to your guns, but its convenient how the metering company took there stuff out straight away, sounds like a cover up to me. I wouldn't lose any sleep I know it's easy for me to say but I really wouldn't. Good luck

 

[monkster]

Oh Dear.Wylex are recalling more MCB's There has been another product recall from Electrium for their Wylex and Crabtree brands The product recall details are below:

 

[craigday]

sounds like it was just very bad timing, I hope you get this sorted and don't get the blame!! good luck

 

[oldtimer]

A couple of things strike me here you could have been in the wrong place at the wrong time . Also when in a DB or CU as they say I always go around the connections even the live bar ones and always find a problem due to the guy that fitted it either never went and checked his connections or had a worn screwdriver. Remember copper gives hence when you connect the mains on a CU or 6/10mm on cooker and showers switches its good practice to make the connection and then wait for 5 minutes then check them again.

The other thin is there could have been a slack connection and you disturbed it either way I hope you get a good result as the fire officer should be aware of the Wylex problem and they are pretty good at tracing the source so good luck

I meant to add that I do repairs in rentals so I get a lot of shower switches that are damaged due to heat from slack connections as for CU,s I have had a couple with burnt busbars again traced to a slack connection.


Here you go

 

[stevie_sausage]

I know what your saying Old timer but the thing is the auditors who did the retest said everything was tight on what was left of the board, but in your opinion have you ever known two boards to go up in less than 12 hours without their being forewarning etc thats what is baffling me Ive come across stuff thats burnt out due to loose connections etc and its been in for years also even when I have replaced fuseboards in the past its not uncommon to have found 25mm tails just fall out of the bottom of the isolator yet theyve done no harm for as long as the boards been in.

 

[sedgy34]

Not much to say really just put it down to experience

 

[oldtimer]

I know what your saying Old timer but the thing is the auditors who did the retest said everything was tight on what was left of the board, but in your opinion have you ever known two boards to go up in less than 12 hours without their being forewarning etc thats what is baffling me Ive come across stuff thats burnt out due to loose connections etc and its been in for years also even when I have replaced fuseboards in the past its not uncommon to have found 25mm tails just fall out of the bottom of the isolator yet theyve done no harm for as long as the boards been in.

Yep I hear what you say and I am no different and yes seen a 16/25mm fall out as well but what I will say the damaged due to slack connections can be due to and traced to load bearing equipment hence why I change a lot of shower,cooker switches or their fuses /MCBs in the CU and the same with off peak equipment ie immersion / storage heaters.

I really do feel for you as this is the sharp end of our trade where people say a monkey can wire a house but when there is an electrical problem or fire people look at the spark to ask what happened

 

[polo1]

Stevie, can't begin to guess how you are feeling mate, but on the bright side no one has been injured or killed. It may only have been one board which then caused damage to the other.

Easier said than done, but in your shoes I would just try to move on - you sound like a reasobable guy, so don't beat yourself up.

By the by, was there original paperwork for the 2009 install and if so, how did your results compare? Does look like a real chance of a Wylex fault.

 

[ipf]

Hope you get to the bottom of it for your own satisfaction.
Really does look like a case of wrong place wrong time. Really can't see both CU's going up, too much of a coincidence. Just hope that coincidence is the word in question for the whole issue. Good luck.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Were both boards above the service head?

 

[stevie_sausage]

yes house electrics where right above, E7 electrics where above right .

 

[sedgy34]

Could have been the service head for all you know, I've had that before a service head smoking cause of a fault in the road
dont worry about it mate

 

[monkster]

Hi mate a few years ago company that i was working at issued memos stating that they had problems with wylex units with thermal damage,we was asked to use a torque screwdriver to tighten,looks like you may have disturbed a loose connection who knows,easier said than done try not too beat yourself up over it.

 

[Sintra]

The time that this happened would point to the time that the E7 would kick in. Still sounds like a loose connection to me. Hope it all pans out ok for you mate

 

[stevie_sausage]

thats the thing though, if it was a loose connection how & why that fast??? when the E7 only kicks in at 12 brigade called at 1:04am? 1 hour 4 mins both boards on fire. baffles me.

 

[onions1066]

thats the thing though, if it was a loose connection how & why that fast??? when the E7 only kicks in at 12 brigade called at 1:04am? 1 hour 4 mins both boards on fire. baffles me.

All storage heaters coming on that is some decent load, so it all depends how loose it was.

 

[MDJ]

Sorry to hear the bad news, I hope things work out for you, I suppose a loose connection could be one guess at what happened, sometimes disconnecting cables to test them and then reconnecting them may leave a loose connection, and under load, well anythings possible, however it may be total coincidence, I hope so pal, fingers crossed for you.

 

[stevie_sausage]

at a maximum it could only be 40a as the storage heaters where two small and two medium, plus a immirsion element which are about 3kw so if i were to say around 850w ea for two heaters and around 1500 ea for two medium heaters plus the three kw immersion I'm looking at about just under 34 amps. only thing i can feel could cause that would be the actual meter tails and
i checked them as part of the test.

 

[Gavin A]

I know what your saying Old timer but the thing is the auditors who did the retest said everything was tight on what was left of the board, but in your opinion have you ever known two boards to go up in less than 12 hours without their being forewarning etc thats what is baffling me Ive come across stuff thats burnt out due to loose connections etc and its been in for years also even when I have replaced fuseboards in the past its not uncommon to have found 25mm tails just fall out of the bottom of the isolator yet theyve done no harm for as long as the boards been in.

so, the auditors were last in?

buck stops with them then doesn't it?

more chance that they didn't tighten something back up after the retest, than that you didn't and they also missed it IMO.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I think auditors went in after the fire

 

[Gavin A]

I think auditors went in after the fire

ah, right. I didn't see how they'd have been able to do the retest mentioned in the OP if that was the order of things, but you're probably right.

 

[trev]

The way I understand it normally to work is that the forensics people are called in by the fire service if there's any doubt as to the cause of the fire. Most of the time if they can't find a cause they put it down to an electrical fault BUT given that you carried out an EICR that day and everything checked out fine (and owing to the way you come across as a pretty conscientious guy) I doubt they'll just stick it in that box. If you were to make enough noise the fire service might be forced to bring in an investigator but this whole thing smells very fishy (no pun intended) to me. The place gets a clean bill of health then goes up in flames, there's something very wrong here and I doubt very much it's with you. Hope you get this sorted in your favour mate, keeps us informed as to how it pans out.

 

[Des 56]

but this whole thing smells very fishy (no pun intended) to me.

I think trev summed up the doubts and the way forward well

Another thing for all of us to bare in mind, the Eicr now puts situations such as this firmly in the electricians hands and

The Eicr now asks for the condition of the suppliers cable ,metering equipment etc
Surely this is a pass the buck tick box designed in part to absolve the supplier of what should be their responsibility,that buck being passed to the little man once again

 

[trev]

There's the big question though Des isn't it? The suppliers gear is their toys and we are not supposed to play with them. How can we then make a legitimate comment about their condition? If we can't play with them how are we supposed to know if they're in good condition or not?.....Obviously we do to a large point but I'm sure you'll see what I'm getting at

 

[Des 56]

There's the big question though Des isn't it? The suppliers gear is their toys and we are not supposed to play with them. How can we then make a legitimate comment about their condition? If we can't play with them how are we supposed to know if they're in good condition or not?.....Obviously we do to a large point but I'm sure you'll see what I'm getting at

I agree,we are not in any way in a position to tick those boxes with anything other than a simple visual observation,yet our lords and masters put it there and in a very specific way

How can we then make a legitimate comment about their condition?

I see little reason for its inclusion other than where an addition is being made and doubt exists
They love to state its their equipment and we should not mess with it
Its their gear,their responsibility,but these tick boxes could work against the spark in these situations

 

[trev]

I agree,we are not in any way in a position to tick those boxes with anything other than a simple visual observation,yet our lords and masters put it there and in a very specific way

How can we then make a legitimate comment about their condition?

I see little reason for its inclusion other than where an addition is being made and doubt exists
They love to state its their equipment and we should not mess with it
Its their gear,their responsibility,but these tick boxes could work against the spark in these situations

My point exactly, their gear, their rules, they should be checking it not us.

 

[ipf]

My point exactly, their gear, their rules, they should be checking it not us.

Aye, but the only time they'll check it is after an emergency call....usually by us.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Boycott those tick boxes?

 

[kingeri]

Going back to the Wylex MCB recall, I have seen two instances of these faulty breakers in action. Both were VERY slow burners, there was clear evidence of melting over a long period of time. I think you would have seen evidence of a fault during the EICR if these were to blame, I can't see them just going up in such a short space of time.

 

[odawire]

On Monday just gone I carried out and Electrical Installation Condition report for the company I work for their were 13 circuits across 2 C.U 5 of which were 20a radials across a rcd controlled c.u for E7, the boards were wylex type and were fitted in Oct 2009 I did the test everything was in acceptable condition apart from a couple of C2/C3 notifications. sadly, the property caught fire that night, thank God the family was safe and got out! the customer was awoke by smoke alarms triggering at about 1 am. the boards have completely disintergrated ( I've not seen them only what I have been told) only remaining is copper no plastic enclosure and none of the plastic on mcb's etc, supplier has already removed the metering equipment . the next day my company sent a company who audit samples of our work that we carry out back to the property to re-do the test to check their results were in line with mine and that the test had been carried out correctly. They where. having spoken to my employers they want me to come back to work but obviously dont want me back on the tools until they have finished their investigation. However they are not going to get a forensic specialist in to determine the cause of the fire, though I want and would welcome them to, but they wont and this is where I am hoping some of you could possibly help me....



I am aware from looking over the last few days (hindsight is a wonderful thing) that around the 2009-10 Electrium gave a recall to faulty (wylex) mcb's that could and have in some cases caught fire, I have seen a few posts on-line where unfortunately they have, if anyone has come across them causing fires could you please post what happened and how fast the fire burnt through the board. the customer went to bed at 11pm monday night and as stated was awoke at 1am so this gives a two hour window for this to mainifest itself into a full blown fire, if it was surely you would have seen some smoke or s/alarm would have triggered in the hallway were the fuseboard is situated if it was 'slow burning' also customer would have surely got the legendary fishy smell throughout the day which would really have caused alarm with me only finishing the test at 1:50pm on the monday. I cannot rule out a mistake on my part unless forensics are brought in however having been in this industry for near 20 years I have never known 2x fuseboards go completely on fire & disintergrate within 2 hours after smouldering for 9 due to a loose connection ( please enlighten me if you have) again if it was loose connections would the power have not started cutting out depending on what was loose etc (testers said everything that remained was tight btw) I'm really at a loss here and could really do with some help as a bad name in this industry sure travels quick. thank you all.

Hey sounds like a bit of a nightmare mate, you say there were some C2 recommendations? therefore it was in unsatisfactory condition, so I don't think you should worry, if it gets legal; you told them on the day of the fire that they're installation was unsafe, must just be a case of really bad timing. or if something fishy is going on they've played it totally wrong.

 

[ElectriCall]

thats the thing mate, I dont mind getting pinned for it if its my fault like I said I'd rather know as my confidence for doing this job now has taken a hell of a knock. In terms of the meter being tampered again it is a possibility customer was complaining that she spends 55 pounds per week on Electricity she is on benefits not that that should be an indication of someones honesty in obtaining 'free energy' I have to be careful to not start my own crusade of blaming the customer etc as then I'm no worse than the people who are trying to prove it was me. however it is a bit circumstancial that wylex mcb's could cause fire, the board was fitted oct 09 I test it and that night it decides to go up like a piece of sugar paper.

Is this a council house?

 

[telectrix]

£55/week on lecky????? what's growing in the attic?

 

[Stroppy]

Before I ever put a lid back on a board even if I've only touched 1 circuit I tighten everything just out of habit.

This is a habit I have adopted, too, as so many board I have worked on seem to have had their screws done up by an infant with his thumb and forefinger. I don't think I've ever found a board which I can't get another quarter of a turn out of at least some of the screws - obviously without wrenching them up so hard that my arm aches, which would do more harm than good.

 

[Des 56]

If you were to go all "Action man" on the Wylex breakers at that time, the threads would get stripped quicker than you could aquire those aching arms lol

 

[oldtimer]

Been thinking about this and although I do not do a lot of EICRs I when I do I make it good practice to explain to the customer not to store combustible materials against the CU and service head plus I am sure the ESC did a thing on this with warning labels.Plus I always check the smoke detector before and after just to confirm they are ok because as we know electronic equipment does not like IR tests and the old customer response of well my smoke detector was working ok before you touched it so with me checking it first I can say are you aware your smoke detector is not working. Also does not help with the blame culture we live in nowadays

 

[Stroppy]

If you were to go all "Action man" on the Wylex breakers at that time, the threads would get stripped quicker than you could aquire those aching arms lol

With my weedy inbred arms that's not much of a danger!

 

[brookster]

I feel sorry for you mate I really do, if it was anything to do with you most likely you would have found out as soon as you turned the installation on.
This must weigh heavy on you and I would be pushing for the manufacturer to be done for this as someone could have died and take some of the dread from your shoulders.
Parts failing in this manner is simply unacceptable they should be taken to task over it.

 

[MDJ]

I will throw another question out here too, should older installations be ripped apart and tested to extremes which includes disconnecting all cabling from old DBs and dead tests carried out, when there's a possibility damage could occur when re-instating? I wonder if sometimes a visual inspection with limited tests be the norm rather than full on EICRs, I'm aware there are limitations between which the client and the contractor can discuss and work to, but if a company sends an employee to carry out a EICR and the employee does just that without consideration to the age of an installation and something happens who's to blame? the electrician, the boss, or the system? I wonder what will happen in this case if this sparky is found to have put a wire back in a breaker and it was loose causing the problem? a good thread this even if the poor sod who started it may not be enjoying it as much as others here, just to put my point across for any doubters, I'm on the sparks side and hope he is in no way responsible or the scapegoat. I have often wondered when carrying out a periodic or EICR as it's called now whether I should be disconnecting cabling and then reconnecting, I have wondered if I should be doing it although it is enforced by some companies for example who rent out houses etc, makes you think this thread, again I suppose it comes down to the individual spark to assess the condition of it before proceeding, a high court barrister may well get a conviction against the spark doing the test, but would he also blame the boss, the supervisor or the system, one things for sure, the people who's house burned down will want blood for this, should the regs be altered regarding EICRs and the sheets altered to ensure certain tests are carried out but ripping the system apart frowned upon, after all it's worked for years why disconnect and have a risk of a loose wire? I know there are visual inspection reports now which you can fill in regarding the visual condition of the installation, I wonder if these will catch on more after seeing this thread?

 

[oldtimer]

Remember 95% of MCBs or RCDs are made in either China or India and yes we hope the importers ie the CU manufacturers are doing quality assurance testing but me thinks not . Thing is if it is traced to faulty equipment fine but if these incidents become more common then they will do something about it

 

[brookster]

Having a tug at the cable after you have connected it and pulling at cables you are checking is pretty much standard practice imho. The MCB should trip also with excessive arcing as you will creating excess current if it's 'loose'.

 

[MDJ]

Having a tug at the cable after you have connected it and pulling at cables you are checking is pretty much standard practice imho. The MCB should trip also with excessive arcing as you will creating excess current if it's 'loose'.

I agree with your first point but after 30 years in the trade can tell you your 2nd point isn't right, I have seen this for myself on jobs several times over the years, I have seen phase cables burnt to a cinder in Fuses and MCBs still connected and the fuses and MCBS still on and the cable still taking the load, I have even seen flames on a cable at an MCB in a board, that comment won't wear with me, old timers right about the Chinese crap we get today, and infact what they made 20 years ago as well, Taiwan crap also lol

 

[brookster]

I agree with your first point but after 30 years in the trade can tell you your 2nd point isn't right, I have seen this for myself on jobs several times over the years, I have seen phase cables burnt to a cinder in Fuses and MCBs still connected and the fuses and MCBS still on and the cable still taking the load, I have even seen flames on a cable at an MCB in a board, that comment won't wear with me, old timers right about the Chinese crap we get today, and infact what they made 20 years ago as well, Taiwan crap also lol

I thought the in rush current would be enough to trip out an arcing breaker, I've never seen it happen so I will withdraw that statement.
Don't tell me anymore I get scared
Maybe it's something manufacturers could look at.