downlighters on ground floor!

[HappyHippyDad]

I have been asked to fit downlighters to a hallway and also a kitchen all on the ground floor.

The customer would prefer me not to take up the carpet and floor boards above, but I cant see anyway around this? I might be lucky with the hallway and have them all in a straight line running the same way as the joists and manage it with cable rods but the kitchen will have the lights all over the place.

Is there anyway of doing this without taking up the floorboards?

Cheers all...

 

[kingeri]

You canna change the laws of physics!

Sometimes you need access from above, or you just can't do the job. If you work out where all the joists are and visualise the required cable run, then explain to the customer. Maybe they can come up with a way to do the impossible!

Edit: In cases where you do need to lift boards, the art is then trying to do the job lifting as few as possible. Trusty cable rods and fishing wire will help. If you can get access to the joist space at one end you should be able to get the cable to all the lights along that line from there. Each job is different but as I said, we can't do the impossible. Punters seem to think sometimes that we can work magic. Like the time I was asked to install a wireless socket outlet......

 

[HappyHippyDad]

You canna change the laws of physics!

Sometimes you need access from above, or you just can't do the job. If you work out where all the joists are and visualise the required cable run, then explain to the customer. Maybe they can come up with a way to do the impossible!

Edit: In cases where you do need to lift boards, the art is then trying to do the job lifting as few as possible. Trusty cable rods and fishing wire will help. If you can get access to the joist space at one end you should be able to get the cable to all the lights along that line from there. Each job is different but as I said, we can't do the impossible. Punters seem to think sometimes that we can work magic. Like the time I was asked to install a wireless socket outlet......

Thanks kingeri, I like your reply :biggrin:

I kind of new the answer but someone sometimes comes up with some magical answer!!

 

[telectrix]

it's either lift carpets and floor or make a few nice big holes in the ceiling. customer's choice.

 

[KFH]

Holes in the ceiling may be easier. Then drill the joists from the hole. Depends on how good you are at making good.

 

[telectrix]

and if it's a newish build, some pratt may have stuffed a couple of acres of kingspan in there.

 

[ayjay]

if its plaster& lathe ceilings you,ll have a nightmare of a job

 

[Octopus]

if its plaster& lathe ceilings you,ll have a nightmare of a job

so run a mile!

 

[telectrix]

i'd not even try if it was lath.

 

[marcusone]

i'd not even try if it was lath.

Agreed. From experience.

 

[daniel198207]

get a quote off a joiner/plasterer to drop the ceiling, and do it that way, maybe be abit more expensive but thats the best way

 

[bk81]

When I had to do it, I made it clear they would need to replaster the ceiling afterwards and to get a quote then decide if they still wanted it. In most newer houses it's the only way as they don't have the floorboards that are easy to lift...

I used to cut holes with a 4" hole cutter, then drill the joists with an extension piece to get the cable roughly the middle of the joist, still needed cable rods to make it work though!

 

[KAS1]

You have to be a bit stronger to the customer and say NO IT CAN'T BE DONE tell them you are an electrician not a magician.

I have been asked to fit downlighters to a hallway and also a kitchen all on the ground floor.

The customer would prefer me not to take up the carpet and floor boards above, but I cant see anyway around this? I might be lucky with the hallway and have them all in a straight line running the same way as the joists and manage it with cable rods but the kitchen will have the lights all over the place.

Is there anyway of doing this without taking up the floorboards?

Cheers all...

 

[KAS1]

I've never had a floor board yet that I can't lift even when it's the chip board sheets, all you need is a good circular saw set to the correct depth and cut out a few traps piece of cake lol

When I had to do it, I made it clear they would need to replaster the ceiling afterwards and to get a quote then decide if they still wanted it. In most newer houses it's the only way as they don't have the floorboards that are easy to lift...

I used to cut holes with a 4" hole cutter, then drill the joists with an extension piece to get the cable roughly the middle of the joist, still needed cable rods to make it work though!

 

[bk81]

KAS1 it can still be done without lifting the floor though...and I don't trust myself with a circular saw! lol

 

[ian.settle1]

I have been asked to fit downlighters to a hallway and also a kitchen all on the ground floor.

The customer would prefer me not to take up the carpet and floor boards above, but I cant see anyway around this? I might be lucky with the hallway and have them all in a straight line running the same way as the joists and manage it with cable rods but the kitchen will have the lights all over the place.

Is there anyway of doing this without taking up the floorboards?

Cheers all...

Rip the ceiling down then put up a new one

 

[KAS1]

I agree tear down the wall, tear down the wall, tear down the wall, I mean ceiling, reminds me of a great concert lol

 

[westy2412]

Had a customer ask me to put some downlights up in his kitchen in a new build. Told him I would need to take up the bedroom floor above or make holes in his ceiling to fish the cables.
He could understand why I needed cables at each light and couldn't just install them. I spent ages trying to tell him the lights would never work but he continued to argue with me that it would.
In the end I just walked away

 

[amlu]

its kind of possible to do without access from above, you got to find where the joists are, drill some holes/notches in them from below, run the cable in there then fill up the holes. messy but works.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I think I'll go for carpets and floorboards rather than holes in the ceiling!! Didn't realise I'd have to learn a whole new set of skills on top of the electrics! Plasterer, carpet fitter, social worker, etc etc etc.

I have just fitted 6 downlights in a bungalow, so easy access up in the loft. I charged £200 for labour and parts (6 hours and good downlights).

What am I going to charge for this for labour?? Absolutely no idea? 12-20 downlights in 2 hallways and a kitchen, involving taking up floorboards and relaying carpet?? :frown2:

Always like the honest approach, I'm not a carpet fitter and will explain that to the customer.

 

[Richard Burns]

Electrics is the smallest part of it!

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Customer has definitely decided he doesn't want carpets up so its working from below!

I'm actually feeling ok about it as 4 of the lights are in a straight line running the same way as the joists and I know where the joists are. The one problem is getting the feed to them, this is from the present hallway light which will need to go through one joist to get to them. Haven't looked to see what is above that light yet (would be great if just one cable, but highly unlikely, probably 4), but ok to put a wagobox up there.

Its just the 'getting to the joist' to drill through the centre that sounds tricky. I guess just bite the bullet make a hole big enough in the plasterboard to get there (its not lathe and plaster). Bit controversial but could I just notch the bottom of the joist and then put some metal capping to protect cables from future work? That doesn't sound great, would be good to get some views.

Cheers..

 

[Dave 85]

Customer has definitely decided he doesn't want carpets up so its working from below!

I'm actually feeling ok about it as 4 of the lights are in a straight line running the same way as the joists and I know where the joists are. The one problem is getting the feed to them, this is from the present hallway light which will need to go through one joist to get to them. Haven't looked to see what is above that light yet (would be great if just one cable, but highly unlikely, probably 4), but ok to put a wagobox up there.

Its just the 'getting to the joist' to drill through the centre that sounds tricky. I guess just bite the bullet make a hole big enough in the plasterboard to get there (its not lathe and plaster). Bit controversial but could I just notch the bottom of the joist and then put some metal capping to protect cables from future work? That doesn't sound great, would be good to get some views.

Cheers..

Heres what I, and all the sparkies I know personally would do....
Mark all yer holes, draw round the holesaw and check each one is clear with a spike and cut the holes. Where you have to jump joists, find the edge of a joist with a cable rod in the downlighter hole then chisel a rectangular slice out of the cieling about 3" by 1" under the joist, clip the cables to the bottom of the joist (metal capping is not gonna proitect a cable from anything) and chuck a bit of filler in on top of it. Peice of cake.
Im amazed knowone has suggested this yet....

 

[telectrix]

Heres what I, and all the sparkies I know personally would do....
Mark all yer holes, draw round the holesaw and check each one is clear with a spike and cut the holes. Where you have to jump joists, find the edge of a joist with a cable rod in the downlighter hole then chisel a rectangular slice out of the cieling about 3" by 1" under the joist, clip the cables to the bottom of the joist (metal capping is not gonna proitect a cable from anything) and chuck a bit of filler in on top of it. Peice of cake.
Im amazed knowone has suggested this yet....

i've done a few like that, but you need to protect the cables. capping is useless, use the 3mm thick ones with spikes that are designed for this very purpose.

 

[mickys86]

Heres what I, and all the sparkies I know personally would do....
Mark all yer holes, draw round the holesaw and check each one is clear with a spike and cut the holes. Where you have to jump joists, find the edge of a joist with a cable rod in the downlighter hole then chisel a rectangular slice out of the cieling about 3" by 1" under the joist, clip the cables to the bottom of the joist (metal capping is not gonna proitect a cable from anything) and chuck a bit of filler in on top of it. Peice of cake.
Im amazed knowone has suggested this yet....

I was just thinking this also

 

[mickys86]

I think I'll go for carpets and floorboards rather than holes in the ceiling!! Didn't realise I'd have to learn a whole new set of skills on top of the electrics! Plasterer, carpet fitter, social worker, etc etc etc.

I have just fitted 6 downlights in a bungalow, so easy access up in the loft. I charged £200 for labour and parts (6 hours and good downlights).

What am I going to charge for this for labour?? Absolutely no idea? 12-20 downlights in 2 hallways and a kitchen, involving taking up floorboards and relaying carpet?? :frown2:

Always like the honest approach, I'm not a carpet fitter and will explain that to the customer.

Just a quick one.... You earnings where what? £60
Good quality downlight £15/£20? Plus cable, clips etc etc

 

[driverman]

lathe and plaster ceiling....pull down where required to gain access to cables and new light fittings. Plasterer to re-board completely over existing ceiling and skim (nice smooth finish). Much better finish and good firm plaster for the light fittings fixings.

 

[telectrix]

might be cheap for reading and down south, but up here a quote of £300 ( about right for 6 downlights), i'd be laughed out the door.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I was just thinking this also

Thats great Mickey but it was Dave that said it!

Just a quick one.... You earnings where what? £60
Good quality downlight £15/£20? Plus cable, clips etc etc

I charge £20 p/hr if I like the customer/job, £25 if I dont!! I earnt £120 for the labour. lights were JCC (approx £10 each - see my other thread - I like them), 10m's of 1mm is not much is it. overheads £10-20. Customer was happy. £60????????????????????

 

[Tidy Max]

im about to install downlights in a property, bathroom, 3 bedrooms and a hallway, 26 downlights in total.

Should be a nice easy job, each room already has a dimmer fitted and its on the 1st floor so access from the loft is easy peasy!

I have no idea how much to charge though! Especially not after reading you would charge 300 for 6 downlights!!

 

[robsparky1975]

if there is a bedroom above kitchen is it not possible to move any furniture over to one side,then peel carpet back 3 feet and get either 1 whole length of floorboard dependant on what way the joists go or take up a few small sections if not then holesaw either side of the joists,drill through joists(carefully make sure there are no existing cables you will hit),fish cables through,keep all the circular discs that you cut out,some 2"x1" batten,put back up,screw back the discs that you cut out for access,use filler,paint,job done.You can manage that in a day.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

i've done a few like that, but you need to protect the cables. capping is useless, use the 3mm thick ones with spikes that are designed for this very purpose.

They look perfect Telectrix, Thanks.
had a quick scan on ebay and screwfix but cant find them? Where do you get them from and what are they called?

 

[robsparky1975]

total cost of all materials to you then multiply by 20%,your labour how long reasonably will it take you?labour+materials+test cert+notify= cost to client.

 

[telectrix]

Safe Plate Joist Cover - Protects Hidden Wires and Pipes

 

[daca]

Did a downlight job in a flat roofed kitchen extension. I found the edge of all the joists I needed to get through and cut the ceiling with a hole saw just big enough for my angle drill and shortened flat bit.... Kept the cut out plaster board and fitted them back with a bit of wood and glue, real easy to make good with filler!

 

[mickys86]

Thats great Mickey but it was Dave that said it!



I charge £20 p/hr if I like the customer/job, £25 if I dont!! I earnt £120 for the labour. lights were JCC (approx £10 each - see my other thread - I like them), 10m's of 1mm is not much is it. overheads £10-20. Customer was happy. £60????????????????????

Calm down, it was Dave that said it but how about give me a chance to read the thread?
And like I said, "just a quick one" downlights at the wholesalers here last time I checked were at least £15 that's all. Excuse me for only having the opportunity to fit aurora led's recently.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Calm down, it was Dave that said it but how about give me a chance to read the thread?
And like I said, "just a quick one" downlights at the wholesalers here last time I checked were at least £15 that's all. Excuse me for only having the opportunity to fit aurora led's recently.

Sorry chap, I was a bit firey. Thought you were having a dig and I'm not my usually relaxed hippy self at the moment. :wilted_rose:

 

[Guest55]

Is there anyway of doing this without taking up the floorboards?

yes , surface mini trunking on the ceiling.
;-)

if you are intent on taking this job on be sure to double your labour costs as it will take twice as long.
personally i'd walk , unrealistic customers are usually just the start of the misery.

 

[telectrix]

biff, that's the industrial sparks in you talking. us lesser mortals that do domestic crap have to conceal everything except for the shiny new accessories that the customer can brag about to the neighbours.

 

[Guest55]

biff, that's the industrial sparks in you talking. us lesser mortals that do domestic crap have to conceal everything except for the shiny new accessories that the customer can brag about to the neighbours.

ah , that explains it.
saying that , i did a small domestic job on satuarday...
god it was awful lol , gland to be back to tray & conduit today ;-)