Get 18th, Get testing and inspection, go to work?

[BiddeldyBwah]

Sat contemplating life as normal and started thinking about this.

Anyone can do the 18th and the testing and inspection qualifications.

So is it not theoretically possible to do those and simply specialise in testing and inspection? I mean why go through installation courses etc if you can just get a job doing testing with two paid-for courses?

Or am i missing the mark here? Do you need other specific quals to be able to do the certs? Of course i know that you won't be able to do a CPS without experience first but you could work under someone else acting as QS at a company and do testing all day long, no? I know at our company the boss acts as QS and all the NAPIT etc stuff is under him but the other qualified lads (the ones with 2391 and the 18th edition) do the testing.

 

[littlespark]

Is the socket from LN open to anyone, or just trying to get a point across?

I’ve not read the past posts, but I’m thinking there is some confusion between testing, and periodic inspection…. Which really is two separate things.

I was always pressed at the 18th about knowledge, experience AND understanding.

You needed all 3

 

[LastManOnline]

Can't tell whether or not you're being sarcastic

No sarcasm intended. (Am not a fan of sarcasm)

 

[LastManOnline]

Indeed. To some extent this site reflects the best & worst of UK electrics.

Good point. My view (in my limited experience on the site) is that the "best" is really good. And by that I mean better than anywhere else I, ve been involved in, in the industry . On the other hand, the "worst" is as poor, or poorer than I have seen elsewhere.
I wonder if the more liberal, less regulated manner of the UK electrical industry is responsible for that (just my opinion).

 

[Julie.]

Joe Public wants to get problems fixed.

...... needing 'several years' of testing before being deemed competent to test despite being a qualified electrician with a testing qualification. It's just internet high standards that don't apply in real life because normally people aren't so finickity.
...

Which is why the correct standards shouldn't be controlled by the customer base or the industry itself.

For normal installations (and fault finding), I do think 18th + 2391 part 1 + apprenticeship experience is sufficient.

However for EICRs , this should be controlled and subject to years of experience; with 2391 part 2, only those with considerable experience tend to be successful.

Any car driver can drive and perhaps teach someone else to drive (diyer instead of getting a professional in) but ultimately the inspector aka driving examiner is selected and trained for this purpose by a proper authority, not someone who has been driving for years, so "should be able to".

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Is the socket from LN open to anyone,

Yes crack on, the OP doesn't seem very interested in locating fire hazards, more in guessing and waffling:

As for the pic i would hazard a guess..... it just looks a bit old and manky.

And trolling, although it is an interesting discussion that's worth having and he does raise some relevant points.

 

[James]

There's a grain of truth in that, but it's not a great premise for doing inspection and testing. I wouldn't hire you or anyone with that attitude. If I am hiring someone to test and inspect, it's because I want to know exactly what is wrong with the installation. The same as when I use a measuring instrument I want to know a voltage or resistance to reasonable accuracy with excellent reliability, I don't want a half-a**ed answer that might or might not be the voltage. I don't want an inspector who might or might not know what to look for.

Any fool can be taught what length nails to use to fix a socket on the wall, but it takes ninja detective skills to know whether the nails are the right length just by looking at the heads. And you can't learn that from a book. Here's a real example you won't learn on any course but you might learn from experience. Look at the pic of the socket outlet. Seeing this should put you on increased alert for a specific potential problem with the wiring. What is it, and why is this particular socket a warning sign?
View attachment 93314

It’s more an educated guess than a “ I know the answer”

the height of mounting alone suggests that it may well be in the rubber cable age range of installation

 

[Julie.]

Yes crack on, the OP doesn't seem very interested in locating fire hazards, more in guessing and waffling:



And trolling, although it is an interesting discussion that's worth having and he does raise some relevant points.

I think that's a little unfair, I think we all go through that phase of learning a bit , perhaps comparing oneself to the worst of those around us, and believing we know more than we do.

It is the time and experience after this where we develop the real knowledge, at the initial stage, one doesn't see or understand this.

After all, when you pass your driving test at 17, you're the best driver in the world, better than any F1, or police advanced driver...

BTW, unless it's the photo I would be more concerned about "direct contact" with the mk outlet (with the clamp terminals)

 

[littlespark]

A lot of I&T is guesswork, or at least educated guesswork and further proofing of theory’s.

For Lycian’s socket…visual inspection.
first thing you notice is age of accessory. Likely wiring is of same age, lighting circuits possibly don’t have cpc and still old rewritable fuses in board. Eg no rcd. Cable may be old stranded and starting to breakdown… or this is an old socket that’s someone’s fitted as an alteration using newer cable. Need to remove to check.

Looks like it’s mounted on a skirting board, so too low for plugging in anything without damaging the plug. A damaged plug could also mean a damaged socket. The springs in the socket loose, causing bad connection on plug pins.

If same appliance used in other sockets, they too may be damaged from bent pins on plug.

The screws look a little corroded. May just be age, but could be dampness…. In which case the dampness may be in the socket as well.

Physical damage from a rigorous vacuum cleaner….



That’s just visual. I’ve not taken my testers out the box yet.

 

[Julie.]

A lot of I&T is guesswork, or at least educated guesswork and further proofing of theory’s.

For Lycian’s socket…visual inspection.
first thing you notice is age of accessory. Likely wiring is of same age, lighting circuits possibly don’t have cpc and still old rewritable fuses in board. Eg no rcd. Cable may be old stranded and starting to breakdown… or this is an old socket that’s someone’s fitted as an alteration using newer cable. Need to remove to check.

Looks like it’s mounted on a skirting board, so too low for plugging in anything without damaging the plug. A damaged plug could also mean a damaged socket. The springs in the socket loose, causing bad connection on plug pins.

If same appliance used in other sockets, they too may be damaged from bent pins on plug.

The screws look a little corroded. May just be age, but could be dampness…. In which case the dampness may be in the socket as well.

Physical damage from a rigorous vacuum cleaner….



That’s just visual. I’ve not taken my testers out the box yet.

Perhaps it is the photo then, but to me it looks like the shutter is missing, or stuck open allowing direct contact, and being of the age where it has clamp terminals it may be that the wiring is aluminium which can be subject to cracking.

But yes a whole host of alarm bells .

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Correct, This particular model of socket has rising clamp terminals and was recommended for use with aluminium cable. In this case, the cable is copper, but if I found these I would want to satisfy myself that there was no hidden aluminium in the installation. If they were localised to one area e.g. an extension I would consider prioritising that as being at higher risk of defects than the rest of the installation, until proven to be entirely copper.

Old and manky = meh. Aluminium = possible burnouts.
Opinions = meh. Detailed technical knowledge & experience = quality, value-for-money I & T.

 

[LastManOnline]

Correct, This particular model of socket has rising clamp terminals

It's a good and interesting example Lucien and pretty typical of what one can expect to find in an older installation. But back to the OP,s original point.
Would the example you point out really require a qualified spark to require "years of further training", shadowing another spark in order to determine that the socket in question clearly required "further investigation".?

 

[UNG]

Can't tell whether or not you're being sarcastic but my thoughts are this is a forum for electricians. The types of electricians that come on forums after work to discuss....work, are the types that are sticklers for being the best, for being high standard, for having less tolerance of less than perfect.

I think you will find this forum is about more than that what you suggest

In the real world all this stuff isn't that important imo. There are several guys at work who are very very far from perfect sparks and their knowledge is lacking compared to most on here, but they've passed their 2391's and they do a fine job of testing commercial, domestic and industrial installs.

That is your assumption who are you comparing them to when assessing their level of competence and experience.
The 2391 is not the magic ticket to inspection and testing competence that a lot of newcomers to the industry believe it is, it would appear that the 2391 course is little more than reviewing past papers and learning the answers rather than teaching real world inspection and test
I would assume that if the people you are working with are testing domestic, commercial and industrial installations they have the breadth of knowledge and several years experience to do this

Needing several years post-training and certification to even become competent as some claim is fairly absurd imo and is trying to hold people to unrealistic standards that not many in the real world care about. And it's to the detriment of few, too. People at my work make mistakes and nobody cares, it gets spotted, rectified and we move on with our lives without poking holes in what we see as 'incompetence' when in reality it's just 'less than perfect'.

So what you are suggesting is because the client only cares about having a "Satisfactiory" certificate the quality of the inspection and test and the experience and knowledge level of the person doing it doesn't really matter
So people make mistakes where you are currently employed and nobody cares that is a worrying situation, what happens when the mistakes are not spotted until someone is seriously injured or becomes a fatality does nobody care about that or the possibility of a stay at a HM hotel
Some of what you have posted suggests that a poor ECIR is acceptable

 

[pc1966]

I'm not sure what you're saying but it appears to be 'don't hire those without vast experience' which is one of the great problems in this industry.

That is a bit of a separate issue and appears over many industries, certainly in practically every area of the science/technology that I have been involved with.

Everyone wants staff with experience (for obvious reasons) but none of the tight-fisted so-and-sos are willing to give someone a chance to get said experience

So I really understand your frustration at having worked hard to get the qualifications and find it still not quite enough for some jobs, that really is an industry problem. While I agree that for inspection you really need to have seen a lot of the wild and weird stuff that goes on outside, employers should be taking folks one who have shown the theoretical capabilities and giving them a bit of help for the first year or so to get that experience.

In many ways this site is really helpful as you do get to see some strange an unusual installations, so you can learn a bit more then covered by the current regs, but employers should be offering that bit of experienced support as needed on jobs that demand it.

 

[DPG]

I think a lot of the problem these days is that some of the younger end seem to want to just pass a couple of exams and get straight into tasks which would traditionally require experience.

What happened to starting with the basic stuff and building your experience?

As I say, it's probably a small amount of people, but it seems to be increasing. Not just in electrical jobs, but everything.

 

[UNG]

It's a good and interesting example Lucien and pretty typical of what one can expect to find in an older installation. But back to the OP,s original point.
Would the example you point out really require a qualified spark to require "years of further training", shadowing another spark in order to determine that the socket in question clearly required "further investigation".?

I think some of it is down to the inspector if you find something you have never seen before then you need to review the issue make further inquiries maybe after leaving site before committing it to the EICR

The way training is carried out now a lot of qualified sparks haven't had the 4 - 5 years apprenticeship shadowing a qualified spark to gain experience and site knowledge so is it wrong to suggest that someone shadows another spark if they have not had the benefit of an apprenticeship

 

[pc1966]

I think a lot of the problem these days is that some of the younger end seem to want to just pass a couple of exams and get straight into tasks which would traditionally require experience.

What happened to starting with the basic stuff and building your experience?

As I say, it's probably a small amount of people, but it seems to be increasing. Not just in electrical jobs, but everything.

Everyone wants to get in to a decent job after studying, it is kind of the reason to do it!

I think part of the apparent changes over the years have come from the gradual loss of apprenticeships as an entry in to a profession and towards collage/university education and exams (probably the reasons would kick off a completely different political thread). That leads to more theory and less practice, great for some professions but not always as good for ones that actually involve making/repairing stuff.

 

[LastManOnline]

The way training is carried out now a lot of qualified sparks haven't had the 4 - 5 years apprenticeship shadowing a qualified spark to gain experience and site knowledge

That is not something I have not factored in to the discussion as it's a situation I, m not familiar with. I have only known time served electricians and generally speaking by the end of your third year you are expected to be able to function with little or no oversight

so is it wrong to suggest that someone shadows another spark if they have not had the benefit of an apprenticeship

Not at all. Achknowledging areas we are inexperienced in is key to progressing. Afterall, that's the purpose the forum serves for me. It's just that the impression left from this thread is that testing and Inspection is a separate discipline to a normal electricians work. I can, t relate to that

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Would the example you point out really require a qualified spark to require "years of further training", shadowing another spark in order to determine that the socket in question clearly required "further investigation".?

My point wasn't that it was old or required 'further investigation' but that this very specific pattern of MK socket suggested the presence of aluminium wiring.. To make these connections you need to have seen a lot of wiring and a lot of sockets. Julie and I both recognised it, despite the fact that AFAIK neither of us does domestic work where aluminium is most likely to be found. I'm much more attuned to metalclad 15A which I see a lot of, and predicting the effect of each kind and brand of socket on R2 results.

That leads to more theory and less practice, great for some professions but not always as good for ones that actually involve making/repairing stuff.

My dad used to be responsible for a group of maintenance techs and engineers, and he valued experience and track record more than qualifications. His finding was that people with good quals but little experience couldn't solve the real-life problems that needed solving in an efficient and reliable way. As experience increased, so did capability and then those with more advanced quals overtook the others. As much as I protested about this idea when I was a teenager, it has proven true and I now recognise the synergy and interplay between knowledge and experience as the single most effective tool in my toolbox, especially for troubleshooting and I&T.

 

[Julie.]

... it would appear that the 2391 course is little more than reviewing past papers and learning the answers rather than teaching real world inspection and test
...

No!
Correct in the part 2 aspect, it does not teach testing, nor should it.

Part 2 comprises identifying a number of faults on a test system comprising: conduit, pyro, t+e, 3 phase, and single phase; for industrial and domestic including 3ph starters, db, 1ph rfc, lighting, with neons & electronic components, bonding and a "service head" - you need to identify these (10~15) faults, and complete the full eicr report within a set time.
(Most people are unable to find all faults, or cannot complete it in the time).

There is a multiple choice c&g typical exam, some fail on this, but it is the easy part.

There is also a visual set of slides/photos - a bit like Lucien's example, you would have to identify what all the issues are and grade them, each photo may have none, to ~10 points which need grading, you must also identify underlying potential issues forming a discussion with the examiner (questions-answers format)

Again this is a very common point of failure, answers such as "it is old" don't cut it, you would have to be able to justify every grade and underlying issues
"this type of outlet has clamp connectors"
'what's the problem with that, clamp connections are still used today?'
"because it was targeted with aluminium cables"
'what's the problem with aluminium?'
" old aluminium cables are subject to cracking, and could indicate a potential heat/fire hazard"
'so what would you grade it C2?'
"No, I can't grade something I don't know, I would either try to confirm or dispel my suspicions or identify it as FI"

Sort of thing.

Part 1 of 2391, is just like the testing of AM2, so no to little experience required.

Part 1 is initial verification
Part 2 is EICR

 

[UNG]

Joe Public wants to get problems fixed.

I'm not sure what you're saying but it appears to be 'don't hire those without vast experience' which is one of the great problems in this industry.

In the most expedient and cost effective way possible if that needs a good amount of experience and knowledge then someone without it could cost joe public a lot more and not find the fault

At the end of the day you only ever really learn by doing so imo if you have your 2391 you're good to go. That's not good enough for those who are anaI about fine and often unnecessary details (like wanting to know exactly what's wrong with something instead of simply wanting it fixed) but you're a small breed and in the real world someone who has passed the courses is going to know how to suss out most of what they come across.

The 2391 was and is intended to be an add on qualification to the basic core qualifications of an electrician and not as some seem to think a standalone qualification that allows them to immediately go forth and test, inspect and fill in EICR's having never had any onsite real world experience
Working out what is wrong with something and repairing it is one thing but understanding why it broke down and repairing it in a way that may prevent further problems is an entirely different thing but that is not what the 2391 is about

As i've said, those who come on forums to discuss work are often obsessed with 'doing it right' or being seen to be doing it 'better' than others. Rightly or wrongly that leads to unrealistic standards like needing 'several years' of testing before being deemed competent to test despite being a qualified electrician with a testing qualification. It's just internet high standards that don't apply in real life because normally people aren't so finickity.

You seem to have a very low opinion of the customers you work for and a high opinion of your own working practices.

 

[Julie.]

..
I think part of the apparent changes over the years have come from the gradual loss of apprenticeships as an entry in to a profession and towards collage/university education and exams ....

I think this, when I left school an apprenticeship was a good path to go, I started this, but did A levels in the evening, then university when it was considered that only the top 10% academically did so, just a few years later and anything other than university was worthless, and basically "the top 90% academically achieved the top 10% level"!!!

In addition though, the whole financial situation has changed, as i started work, you bought tooling etc to last 25+ years, you trained apprentices because they would be with the company for life (Most of the older guys had been with the company for 40-50 years); soon after the finance arrangements indicated that the investment must pay for itself within 3-5 years, well you cannot justify apprentices on that basis!

 

[nicebutdim]

I think that's a little unfair, I think we all go through that phase of learning a bit , perhaps comparing oneself to the worst of those around us, and believing we know more than we do.

It is the time and experience after this where we develop the real knowledge, at the initial stage, one doesn't see or understand this.

After all, when you pass your driving test at 17, you're the best driver in the world, better than any F1, or police advanced driver...

BTW, unless it's the photo I would be more concerned about "direct contact" with the mk outlet (with the clamp terminals)

Haven't got to the end of this thread yet, so this may have already been pointed out.

The OP isn't 17 years old but, like myself, has recently started an adult apprenticeship. We both have some prior knowledge of basic electrical principles and installation and we both have an awful lot to learn. I fully understnd the frustration of wanting to get on with things, but we all must learn to walk before we can run.

 

[nicebutdim]

At the end of the day you only ever really learn by doing so imo if you have your 2391 you're good to go.

Are you though?

In the case of inspections, you're being paid to assess the condition of an installation - how might one go about this if the intention is to learn as you go? Should the first fifty customers be offered a discounted rate as no guarantee can be given about the thoroughness of an inspection? What use is a report if no one can stand over its findings?

 

[Julie.]

Haven't got to the end of this thread yet, so this may have already been pointed out.

The OP isn't 17 years old but, like myself, has recently started an adult apprenticeship. We both have some prior knowledge of basic electrical principles and installation and we both have an awful lot to learn. I fully understnd the frustration of wanting to get on with things, but we all must learn to walk before we can run.

The new driver thing was merely an example for illustration, but this characteristic is something I see all the time, take for example scuba diving, I have lost count of the number of times I have been on a dive boat and it's the brand new diver with fewer than a handful of dives who thinks they know everything even telling those with thousands of dives, and many qualifications how to do things, most often these aren't youngsters either.

It isn't an age thing, it's a learning thing, when one learns something you feel like you now know everything as you have had a big jump in learning and knowledge, thinking there can't be much more to it; of course there is always so much more, whatever the subject.

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

Are you though?

In the case of inspections, you're being paid to assess the condition of an installation - how might one go about this if the intention is to learn as you go? Should the first fifty customers be offered a discounted rate as no guarantee can be given about the thoroughness of an inspection? What use is a report if no one can stand over its findings?

The intention is always to learn as you go, but others in here are saying competency isn't gained until several years of shadowing some other guy who has the same qualification as you.

I think that's nonsense for reasons i already outlined.

The qualification proves the competency otherwise you wouldn't pass it. Those who want to gate keep electrics think otherwise but that's fine because they only live on the internet.

 

[DPG]

The intention is always to learn as you go, but others in here are saying competency isn't gained until several years of shadowing some other guy who has the same qualification as you.

I think that's nonsense for reasons i already outlined.

The qualification proves the competency otherwise you wouldn't pass it. Those who want to gate keep electrics think otherwise but that's fine because they only live on the internet.

Qualifications do not prove competency. I'm pretty sure even you realise that experience of real life situations and installations is required before someone can be confident in producing a useful EICR.

I don't know why you keep asking for opinions on here - you seem very dismissive of most responses that you receive.

 

[timhoward]

The intention is always to learn as you go, but others in here are saying competency isn't gained until several years of shadowing some other guy who has the same qualification as you.

I think that's nonsense for reasons i already outlined.

I actually think it's common sense.
Learn to install stuff, learn to do initial verification, happy days you have learned to T&I your own work.
But until you have been exposed to the fair spectrum of installations, how other people work, with some understanding of previous regulations, you logically can't instantly be an expert at periodic inspection.

The qualification proves the competency otherwise you wouldn't pass it. Those who want to gate keep electrics think otherwise but that's fine because they only live on the internet.

I think you're being a bit unfair here - you ask questions, you get answers. There's a large variety of folk on here from trainee, apprentices, active sparks young and old, and retired. I do guarantee that some of them are willing to give up their time to constructively help you on your journey though.

because they seem to get offended by anyone who thinks you don't really need 7 years of hands-on experience post-qualification to be worth a damn.

I actually have some level of agreement with you here; but please don't let your attitude stand in the way of sensible debate about it. I would say it's more like a couple of years, and if you initially stick to domestic and certain common property types and are a fast learner maybe even less. Hang in there!

 

[westward10]

@BiddeldyBwah I have removed some of your latter posts as they were totally unacceptable and if you continue in a similar vain this thread will be gone.

 

[DPG]

@BiddeldyBwah I have removed some of your latter posts as they were totally unacceptable and if you continue in a similar vain this thread will be gone.

He'll need a 4th user name at this rate

 

[Dave OCD]

There's definitely a Countrywide issue of very poor and unfit for purpose EICRs being carried out , and it's worrying.
I've personally seen many and would estimate maybe 2 or 3 out of 10 to be good and thorough reports with detailed results and sensible coding. And I've also seen a report for an installation with an up front and non operational voltage trip [TT] given a Satisfactory assessment as well as an old but sound installation utilising imperial stranded tinned copper cables being classed as Unsatisfactory with 'urgent rewire required' due to 'Aluminium' cables....
Just two examples but it's disheartening and quite frustrating that these people are 'earning' good money for doing something that turns out misleading,potentially dangerous and of no benefit at all. In fact I'd say the average workmanship standards in all trades has nosedived over the last 20 years or so. It's like a complete change in attitude and approach with easy money being the only motivation. Of course there are still many excellent tradespeople out there , but I feel they're the minority now.

 

[nicebutdim]

The intention is always to learn as you go, but others in here are saying competency isn't gained until several years of shadowing some other guy who has the same qualification as you.

I think that's nonsense for reasons i already outlined.

The qualification proves the competency otherwise you wouldn't pass it. Those who want to gate keep electrics think otherwise but that's fine because they only live on the internet.

When you pass an English GCSE, you know everything necessary to teach to that level. Somehow I don't imagine schools will employ new teachers on that basis.

The point I was trying to make about inpections is even simpler - installations will contain all manner of weird and wonderful oddities that you've never seen before, much less understood. Would your intention be to code conservatively, thus potentially causing unnecessary expense for the customer, or to adopt a much less cautious approach and leave potentially dangerous situations in your wake.

The bottom line is fairly simple - once the required criteria is met, people are free to undertake work as they please. If they're happy to risk their reputation, or possibly freedom, then that is their perogative. I don't like starting anything without being fairly certain I have the competence to successfully complete it, but everyone is different.

 

[Zerax]

I think a lot of the problem these days is that some of the younger end seem to want to just pass a couple of exams and get straight into tasks which would traditionally require experience.

What happened to starting with the basic stuff and building your experience?

As I say, it's probably a small amount of people, but it seems to be increasing. Not just in electrical jobs, but everything.

It's all part of the 'entitlement' culture that was officially introduced about 20 years ago... kids have been taught that they are all 'entitled' to everything without the need to 'earn' it... whether through hard work, technical study or learning on the job etc etc. Hence we have zillions of youngsters with degrees... who think they are 'entitled' to a highly paid job !

It's not just with work either... it's in all aspects of modern life. E.g. legally we are all 'entitled' to do what we want as long as there's no law against it... so things like consideration for others or common sense have also been abandoned.

 

[Zerax]

...In fact I'd say the average workmanship standards in all trades has nosedived over the last 20 years or so.

I agree... and I think a major contributor to this is the qualification/certificate culture. The focus has moved away from having a safe, properly installed and maintained installation to having a certificate ! As long has you have that certificate you're safe ! Crazy

 

[Diddy]

In fact I'd say the average workmanship standards in all trades has nosedived over the last 20 years or so.

I despise this sweeping type of comment. I mean I served my time well within your "good days range" eg much more than 20 years ago.
But - The type of post and statements such as not as skilled/competent/up to standard as they used to be ? Does that mean that all of us who passed our apprenticeships in the 70's and onwards are ---- teachers ? Or are we all of a sudden bringing up our kids to be stupid ?
It's not a zero sum game this point im making, If all the kids coming through trades are not up to standard then who the hell is teaching them ? Who is bringing them up ? Who is making them entitled ?
Might be bigging myself up a tad but thinking back I have had maybe 10 apprentices that I taught from start to finish all of them passed their respective trade tests and completed full apprenticeships ? Does that mean im some sort of god tradesman who can impart knowledge onto pimply teenagers where the rest of the country according to some/many cant ? I don't think it does to be honest.
Too many tradesmen give it "kids these days" "I haven't got the time too...." not like the sparks who taught me who obviously had all the time in the world to get the job done while taking the time to show us how and why.

As for the thread itself ? Obviously testing and inspection is rocket science and not one person would be able to spot the issues with the pictured socket or the poor resistance in the other example listed....OR it could actually just be basic stuff ?

@OP If you do a decent apprenticeship with someone who has at least half an intention of teaching you and on top of that you pass your 2391 and/or whatever other requirement is in place that particular year then you can test and inspect to a reasonable quality.
If you are new you will be slower, but if you are on a fixed price then nobody dies, nobody loses anything. As with anything in life the more you do it the more experience you pick up. Good luck charging much extra for that experience from your typical customer who wants and EICR, Although if you work for a company you might just earn yourself an extra 10p per hour.

 

[Dave OCD]

We all have different opinions, mine are just based on personal experiences and observations.
I can't please everybody. Maybe some of the issues come from a mass inability to properly focus and concentrate on the task in hand due to a mindless obsession with Social Media and the overwhelming compulsion to constantly check mobile phones, who knows.

 

[Diddy]

We all have different opinions, mine are just based on personal experiences and observations.
I can't please everybody. Maybe some of the issues come from a mass inability to properly focus and concentrate on the task in hand due to a mindless obsession with Social Media and the overwhelming compulsion to constantly check mobile phones, who knows.

So you having issues with apprentices not putting their phone down ? Hmm mines are always too busy in work time. There is NEVER nothing to do...Day 1 week 1.
BTW I am not having a go at YOU as a spark or teacher in your own right. The line you quoted along with the response must be the most often quoted statement concerning apprentices. I must have been very "lucky" with my pupils, All 10 completed their apprenticeship within the recognised time scale with no resits for anything practical nor indeed anything related to fault finding (AM2 and in college testing) - IF they had a question id answer it with my own..get em thinking. Make them feel valued but firm and fair. They all knew there were lines in the sand. Been to 5 weddings on the back of them lads....the other 5 ? Well who knows lol.

Anyway sorry and merry xmas and happy new year. It's obviously a bit of a bug bear of mine..I get that. I recall a distant time when I was the 16yo being told kids these days "we had to walk 10 miles to work with 2 drums of lead sheaved cable under our arms". In the end these kids are what WE produced and any shortcomings surely must sadly reflect on us as a generation not imparting the basics for these kids to build on.
Roll on the wireless sockets.

 

[Dave OCD]

No apologies needed, as I said we all have our own views. As for phones I'm lucky as I only have my 22 year old son working with me who also did his apprenticeship with me. He loves his work and only has a look at his phone at lunch time - and that's generally football related stuff. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too.

 

[Diddy]

For the sake of completeness one of my lads passed all his stuff, Done sparking for a year and then went on to become a bespoke conservatory installer. I think he does the electrical side himself but still...Maybe I put him off lol. Take care guys have a great next year.

 

[nicebutdim]

IF they had a question id answer it with my own..get em thinking.

By far the best way of teaching anything.

 

[Des 56]

Pardon me if this may have been stated previously, have not read whole of thread
Taking and passing the 2391 and 18th then doing test and inspection without being taught installation ?

Here is what can be found in Guidance note 3 regards the inspector

The inspector must have a sound knowledge and experience relevant to the nature of the installation being inspected and tested

That sentence above on its own seems to cover what the post author asked in his original question
Of course you must have experience, but unlike myself most on here are not going to have experience say of installations from the early seventies

If you lack historical experience on a installation, then make enquiry and find out
Anyone new to test and inspect can do little more
You can't become experienced at anything unless you are first inexperienced and either taught or self taught in order to gain the experience