Get 18th, Get testing and inspection, go to work?

[loz2754]

I'm probably missing something as we're only just getting to the basics now where i'm learning, but how complicated can it be to simply carry out tests and record the numbers? What am i missing?

You refer here to just the testing part of things, whereas the true measure of competence in doing EICRs is in the inspection part.
Guidance Note 3 Inspection and Testing lists pages and pages of things to look out for when doing an inspection of an existing installation, and it says that this list is not exhaustive, as there are many other things an inspector may come across. These are the things that cannot be taught in class and verified by passing an exam. I believe personally that anyone doing EICRs on existing installations, and signing their name on these EICRs, MUST have several years experience under the belt to be able to confidently declare the whole installation as safe/unsafe, based on their judgement of all the items inspected. And the best way to gain this experience, is under the guidance of someone who has this experience.

Sadly, in real life, this is not the case. Hence the plethora of EICRs posted on this forum that are not worth a cubic centimetre of liquefied poo...

 

[ruston]

And a like too if I was able

 

[Zerax]

the best way to gain competence with EICRs is to shadow someone who does for two or three years on various types and age of installation

But be careful that you don't shadow a dozen or more different people... then you'll be totally confuzzled as to what to code things !!

 

[Dustydazzler]

Coding is extremely ambiguous , you could shadow 40 different sparks and all 40 would code things differently

I know some sparks who code missing brown sleeve as Code 2 , some as Code 3 and some don't bother coding it

 

[DPG]

Coding is extremely ambiguous , you could shadow 40 different sparks and all 40 would code things differently

I know some sparks who code missing brown sleeve as Code 2 , some as Code 3 and some don't bother coding it

Code 2 for missing sleeving?!

 

[Dustydazzler]

Code 2 for missing sleeving?!

Yep so they can charge the landlord £150 to remove switches to put sleeve on

Nice earner

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

Needing several years of shadowing someone after being qualified and certified seems a bit much to be honest.

 

[Julie.]

Needing several years of shadowing someone after being qualified and certified seems a bit much to be honest.

It is for normal installation work (issuing of installation certificates etc), but there is no way you can learn everything needed to carry out periodic inspections without it.

My only issue is that just because you do have years of experience and being mentored, does not mean you are actually up to standard.

We have all seen many drivers who passed their driving test successfully years ago, and have considerable driving experience since -- who are absolutely NOT competent on the road!

I believe that you need the experience and then are tested to show they are at the correct standard in order to do periodics.

 

[westward10]

It is for normal installation work (issuing of installation certificates etc), but there is no way you can learn everything needed to carry out periodic inspections without it.

My only issue is that just because you do have years of experience and being mentored, does not mean you are actually up to standard.

We have all seen many drivers who passed their driving test successfully years ago, and have considerable driving experience since -- who are absolutely NOT competent on the road!

I believe that you need the experience and then are tested to show they are at the correct standard in order to do periodics.

I agree I have had many people shadowing me and some just don't make the grade.

 

[LastManOnline]

Coding is extremely ambiguous , you could shadow 40 different sparks and all 40 would code things differently

I never really saw the need for EICR,s. I regard them as the softest money I will ever make. I also regard them as poor value for the homeowner.The average homeowner does not abuse his house. If its wired/rewired by a professional it is basically maintenance free electrically and a simple visual check combined with the testing of his safety devices every 10 years or so would in my view be more than sufficient. It's different with rented accomodation obviously.
. I can appreciate though that in the UK there is a greater need for electrical checks due to the prevalence of DIY electrical work

 

[LastManOnline]

Needing several years of shadowing someone after being qualified and certified seems a bit much to be honest.

I comepletely agree. We spend several years learning how to do things correctly. Why would we need several years more to recoqnize when things have been done incorrectly.?

 

[Julie.]

...
. I can appreciate though that in the UK there is a greater need for electrical checks due to the prevalence of DIY electrical work

This really, I think we have all come across appalling work , Ireland may be different, but most of the EU (and other areas to which the regs apply) allow diy stuff, although in my experience very poor/dangerous work isn't exclusive to diy by any margin!!

 

[LastManOnline]

Ireland may be different,

It's not. As you say all countries allow for a measure of DIY work. But it's usually of the plugtop and ceiling rose variety.Whereas, as the threads on this forum demonstrate on a daily basis, in the UK the average diyer can virtually do as he pleases

 

[Julie.]

It's not. As you say all countries allow for a measure of DIY work. But it's usually of the plugtop and ceiling rose variety.Whereas, as the threads on this forum demonstrate on a daily basis, in the UK the average diyer can virtually do as he pleases

Same in Germany, perhaps the average German is better educated than the average UK diyer, however you can find just as many videos and diy examples throughout the area covered by these regulations.

It perhaps looks worse on this site as so many work in the uk and post their findings

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

I comepletely agree. We spend several years learning how to do things correctly. Why would we need several years more to recoqnize when things have been done incorrectly.?

Can't tell whether or not you're being sarcastic but my thoughts are this is a forum for electricians. The types of electricians that come on forums after work to discuss....work, are the types that are sticklers for being the best, for being high standard, for having less tolerance of less than perfect.

In the real world all this stuff isn't that important imo. There are several guys at work who are very very far from perfect sparks and their knowledge is lacking compared to most on here, but they've passed their 2391's and they do a fine job of testing commercial, domestic and industrial installs.

Needing several years post-training and certification to even become competent as some claim is fairly absurd imo and is trying to hold people to unrealistic standards that not many in the real world care about. And it's to the detriment of few, too. People at my work make mistakes and nobody cares, it gets spotted, rectified and we move on with our lives without poking holes in what we see as 'incompetence' when in reality it's just 'less than perfect'.

 

[Julie.]

Can't tell whether or not you're being sarcastic but my thoughts are this is a forum for electricians. The types of electricians that come on forums after work to discuss....work, are the types that are sticklers for being the best, for being high standard, for having less tolerance of less than perfect.

In the real world all this stuff isn't that important imo. There are several guys at work who are very very far from perfect sparks and their knowledge is lacking compared to most on here, but they've passed their 2391's and they do a fine job of testing commercial, domestic and industrial installs.

Needing several years post-training and certification to even become competent as some claim is fairly absurd imo and is trying to hold people to unrealistic standards that not many in the real world care about. And it's to the detriment of few, too. People at my work make mistakes and nobody cares, it gets spotted, rectified and we move on with our lives without poking holes in what we see as 'incompetence' when in reality it's just 'less than perfect'.

But there is a difference between doing the work to current standards (and testing); and inspecting installations which cover work complying with various standards over the last 30-40 years.


For example, it is one thing to be a fully qualified car mechanic, but only a few obtain sufficient experience and compliance with standards to perform mots - even fewer that can inspect hgv, psv etc.

These are the ones who after learning just like every other mechanic, gain experience and then get assessed to ensure a consistent standard for mots

(Now, I know we can say they are not completely consistent, but they are more so than the current situation with EICRs.)

Imagine a rough mechanic who has only worked on cars, should they automatically be allowed to certify a hgv as safe with nothing more than their initial mechanic training and "experiance"?

That's basically the equivalent to some electrician who completed their training, and now can EICR anything out there...

 

[pc1966]

It perhaps looks worse on this site as so many work in the uk and post their findings

Indeed. To some extent this site reflects the best & worst of UK electrics as it has quite a few very good electricians on it that clearly have pride in their work and often are not afraid to ask questions when they don't know, which is the only way to learn (well, it is cheaper than blowing stuff up several times...).

So when folks come across really bad stuff it gets posted, and we can criticise, laugh, or occasionally think "but for the grace of god..."

But not all of the crap work is DIY, some if it is by p-poor sparks that are the equivalent of dodgy garages for car repairs, etc.

Without any examination of other country's electrical installations on equal terms it is hard to say just how much better or worse they are compared to the UK in terms of dodgy installation.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Don't disagree, but we have two people, (Alice and Bob?), both qualified 20 years ago, both worked in the industry, both mentored/shadowed by two others working in the industry, however one of these was mentored by someone who was incompetent.

Which one is it?

Both Alice and Bob believe they know what they are doing as they have both learnt well from their mentor.

We really need to identify whether Bob or Alice has actually achieved the level required, not just assume that because they both qualified years ago and have varied experience since, then they must actually be competent

Don't disagree, but we have two people, (Alice and Bob?), both qualified 20 years ago, both worked in the industry, both mentored/shadowed by two others working in the industry, however one of these was mentored by someone who was incompetent.

Which one is it?

Both Alice and Bob believe they know what they are doing as they have both learnt well from their mentor.

We really need to identify whether Bob or Alice has actually achieved the level required, not just assume that because they both qualified years ago and have varied experience since, then they must actually be competent

My cat is named Bob. He's a bit clueless, therefore I reckon Alice is best choice.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

In the real world all this stuff isn't that important imo.

There's a grain of truth in that, but it's not a great premise for doing inspection and testing. I wouldn't hire you or anyone with that attitude. If I am hiring someone to test and inspect, it's because I want to know exactly what is wrong with the installation. The same as when I use a measuring instrument I want to know a voltage or resistance to reasonable accuracy with excellent reliability, I don't want a half-a**ed answer that might or might not be the voltage. I don't want an inspector who might or might not know what to look for.

Any fool can be taught what length nails to use to fix a socket on the wall, but it takes ninja detective skills to know whether the nails are the right length just by looking at the heads. And you can't learn that from a book. Here's a real example you won't learn on any course but you might learn from experience. Look at the pic of the socket outlet. Seeing this should put you on increased alert for a specific potential problem with the wiring. What is it, and why is this particular socket a warning sign?

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

If I am hiring someone to test and inspect, it's because I want to know exactly what is wrong with the installation.

Joe Public wants to get problems fixed.

I'm not sure what you're saying but it appears to be 'don't hire those without vast experience' which is one of the great problems in this industry.

At the end of the day you only ever really learn by doing so imo if you have your 2391 you're good to go. That's not good enough for those who are anaI about fine and often unnecessary details (like wanting to know exactly what's wrong with something instead of simply wanting it fixed) but you're a small breed and in the real world someone who has passed the courses is going to know how to suss out most of what they come across.

As i've said, those who come on forums to discuss work are often obsessed with 'doing it right' or being seen to be doing it 'better' than others. Rightly or wrongly that leads to unrealistic standards like needing 'several years' of testing before being deemed competent to test despite being a qualified electrician with a testing qualification. It's just internet high standards that don't apply in real life because normally people aren't so finickity.

As for the pic i would hazard a guess that the screw head is blackened. Apart from that, and being too close to the floor, it just looks a bit old and manky.