Get 18th, Get testing and inspection, go to work?

[Julie.]

..
I think part of the apparent changes over the years have come from the gradual loss of apprenticeships as an entry in to a profession and towards collage/university education and exams ....

I think this, when I left school an apprenticeship was a good path to go, I started this, but did A levels in the evening, then university when it was considered that only the top 10% academically did so, just a few years later and anything other than university was worthless, and basically "the top 90% academically achieved the top 10% level"!!!

In addition though, the whole financial situation has changed, as i started work, you bought tooling etc to last 25+ years, you trained apprentices because they would be with the company for life (Most of the older guys had been with the company for 40-50 years); soon after the finance arrangements indicated that the investment must pay for itself within 3-5 years, well you cannot justify apprentices on that basis!

 

[nicebutdim]

I think that's a little unfair, I think we all go through that phase of learning a bit , perhaps comparing oneself to the worst of those around us, and believing we know more than we do.

It is the time and experience after this where we develop the real knowledge, at the initial stage, one doesn't see or understand this.

After all, when you pass your driving test at 17, you're the best driver in the world, better than any F1, or police advanced driver...

BTW, unless it's the photo I would be more concerned about "direct contact" with the mk outlet (with the clamp terminals)

Haven't got to the end of this thread yet, so this may have already been pointed out.

The OP isn't 17 years old but, like myself, has recently started an adult apprenticeship. We both have some prior knowledge of basic electrical principles and installation and we both have an awful lot to learn. I fully understnd the frustration of wanting to get on with things, but we all must learn to walk before we can run.

 

[nicebutdim]

At the end of the day you only ever really learn by doing so imo if you have your 2391 you're good to go.

Are you though?

In the case of inspections, you're being paid to assess the condition of an installation - how might one go about this if the intention is to learn as you go? Should the first fifty customers be offered a discounted rate as no guarantee can be given about the thoroughness of an inspection? What use is a report if no one can stand over its findings?

 

[Julie.]

Haven't got to the end of this thread yet, so this may have already been pointed out.

The OP isn't 17 years old but, like myself, has recently started an adult apprenticeship. We both have some prior knowledge of basic electrical principles and installation and we both have an awful lot to learn. I fully understnd the frustration of wanting to get on with things, but we all must learn to walk before we can run.

The new driver thing was merely an example for illustration, but this characteristic is something I see all the time, take for example scuba diving, I have lost count of the number of times I have been on a dive boat and it's the brand new diver with fewer than a handful of dives who thinks they know everything even telling those with thousands of dives, and many qualifications how to do things, most often these aren't youngsters either.

It isn't an age thing, it's a learning thing, when one learns something you feel like you now know everything as you have had a big jump in learning and knowledge, thinking there can't be much more to it; of course there is always so much more, whatever the subject.

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

Are you though?

In the case of inspections, you're being paid to assess the condition of an installation - how might one go about this if the intention is to learn as you go? Should the first fifty customers be offered a discounted rate as no guarantee can be given about the thoroughness of an inspection? What use is a report if no one can stand over its findings?

The intention is always to learn as you go, but others in here are saying competency isn't gained until several years of shadowing some other guy who has the same qualification as you.

I think that's nonsense for reasons i already outlined.

The qualification proves the competency otherwise you wouldn't pass it. Those who want to gate keep electrics think otherwise but that's fine because they only live on the internet.

 

[DPG]

The intention is always to learn as you go, but others in here are saying competency isn't gained until several years of shadowing some other guy who has the same qualification as you.

I think that's nonsense for reasons i already outlined.

The qualification proves the competency otherwise you wouldn't pass it. Those who want to gate keep electrics think otherwise but that's fine because they only live on the internet.

Qualifications do not prove competency. I'm pretty sure even you realise that experience of real life situations and installations is required before someone can be confident in producing a useful EICR.

I don't know why you keep asking for opinions on here - you seem very dismissive of most responses that you receive.

 

[timhoward]

The intention is always to learn as you go, but others in here are saying competency isn't gained until several years of shadowing some other guy who has the same qualification as you.

I think that's nonsense for reasons i already outlined.

I actually think it's common sense.
Learn to install stuff, learn to do initial verification, happy days you have learned to T&I your own work.
But until you have been exposed to the fair spectrum of installations, how other people work, with some understanding of previous regulations, you logically can't instantly be an expert at periodic inspection.

The qualification proves the competency otherwise you wouldn't pass it. Those who want to gate keep electrics think otherwise but that's fine because they only live on the internet.

I think you're being a bit unfair here - you ask questions, you get answers. There's a large variety of folk on here from trainee, apprentices, active sparks young and old, and retired. I do guarantee that some of them are willing to give up their time to constructively help you on your journey though.

because they seem to get offended by anyone who thinks you don't really need 7 years of hands-on experience post-qualification to be worth a damn.

I actually have some level of agreement with you here; but please don't let your attitude stand in the way of sensible debate about it. I would say it's more like a couple of years, and if you initially stick to domestic and certain common property types and are a fast learner maybe even less. Hang in there!

 

[westward10]

@BiddeldyBwah I have removed some of your latter posts as they were totally unacceptable and if you continue in a similar vain this thread will be gone.

 

[DPG]

@BiddeldyBwah I have removed some of your latter posts as they were totally unacceptable and if you continue in a similar vain this thread will be gone.

He'll need a 4th user name at this rate

 

[Dave OCD]

There's definitely a Countrywide issue of very poor and unfit for purpose EICRs being carried out , and it's worrying.
I've personally seen many and would estimate maybe 2 or 3 out of 10 to be good and thorough reports with detailed results and sensible coding. And I've also seen a report for an installation with an up front and non operational voltage trip [TT] given a Satisfactory assessment as well as an old but sound installation utilising imperial stranded tinned copper cables being classed as Unsatisfactory with 'urgent rewire required' due to 'Aluminium' cables....
Just two examples but it's disheartening and quite frustrating that these people are 'earning' good money for doing something that turns out misleading,potentially dangerous and of no benefit at all. In fact I'd say the average workmanship standards in all trades has nosedived over the last 20 years or so. It's like a complete change in attitude and approach with easy money being the only motivation. Of course there are still many excellent tradespeople out there , but I feel they're the minority now.

 

[nicebutdim]

The intention is always to learn as you go, but others in here are saying competency isn't gained until several years of shadowing some other guy who has the same qualification as you.

I think that's nonsense for reasons i already outlined.

The qualification proves the competency otherwise you wouldn't pass it. Those who want to gate keep electrics think otherwise but that's fine because they only live on the internet.

When you pass an English GCSE, you know everything necessary to teach to that level. Somehow I don't imagine schools will employ new teachers on that basis.

The point I was trying to make about inpections is even simpler - installations will contain all manner of weird and wonderful oddities that you've never seen before, much less understood. Would your intention be to code conservatively, thus potentially causing unnecessary expense for the customer, or to adopt a much less cautious approach and leave potentially dangerous situations in your wake.

The bottom line is fairly simple - once the required criteria is met, people are free to undertake work as they please. If they're happy to risk their reputation, or possibly freedom, then that is their perogative. I don't like starting anything without being fairly certain I have the competence to successfully complete it, but everyone is different.

 

[Zerax]

I think a lot of the problem these days is that some of the younger end seem to want to just pass a couple of exams and get straight into tasks which would traditionally require experience.

What happened to starting with the basic stuff and building your experience?

As I say, it's probably a small amount of people, but it seems to be increasing. Not just in electrical jobs, but everything.

It's all part of the 'entitlement' culture that was officially introduced about 20 years ago... kids have been taught that they are all 'entitled' to everything without the need to 'earn' it... whether through hard work, technical study or learning on the job etc etc. Hence we have zillions of youngsters with degrees... who think they are 'entitled' to a highly paid job !

It's not just with work either... it's in all aspects of modern life. E.g. legally we are all 'entitled' to do what we want as long as there's no law against it... so things like consideration for others or common sense have also been abandoned.

 

[Zerax]

...In fact I'd say the average workmanship standards in all trades has nosedived over the last 20 years or so.

I agree... and I think a major contributor to this is the qualification/certificate culture. The focus has moved away from having a safe, properly installed and maintained installation to having a certificate ! As long has you have that certificate you're safe ! Crazy

 

[Diddy]

In fact I'd say the average workmanship standards in all trades has nosedived over the last 20 years or so.

I despise this sweeping type of comment. I mean I served my time well within your "good days range" eg much more than 20 years ago.
But - The type of post and statements such as not as skilled/competent/up to standard as they used to be ? Does that mean that all of us who passed our apprenticeships in the 70's and onwards are ---- teachers ? Or are we all of a sudden bringing up our kids to be stupid ?
It's not a zero sum game this point im making, If all the kids coming through trades are not up to standard then who the hell is teaching them ? Who is bringing them up ? Who is making them entitled ?
Might be bigging myself up a tad but thinking back I have had maybe 10 apprentices that I taught from start to finish all of them passed their respective trade tests and completed full apprenticeships ? Does that mean im some sort of god tradesman who can impart knowledge onto pimply teenagers where the rest of the country according to some/many cant ? I don't think it does to be honest.
Too many tradesmen give it "kids these days" "I haven't got the time too...." not like the sparks who taught me who obviously had all the time in the world to get the job done while taking the time to show us how and why.

As for the thread itself ? Obviously testing and inspection is rocket science and not one person would be able to spot the issues with the pictured socket or the poor resistance in the other example listed....OR it could actually just be basic stuff ?

@OP If you do a decent apprenticeship with someone who has at least half an intention of teaching you and on top of that you pass your 2391 and/or whatever other requirement is in place that particular year then you can test and inspect to a reasonable quality.
If you are new you will be slower, but if you are on a fixed price then nobody dies, nobody loses anything. As with anything in life the more you do it the more experience you pick up. Good luck charging much extra for that experience from your typical customer who wants and EICR, Although if you work for a company you might just earn yourself an extra 10p per hour.

 

[Dave OCD]

We all have different opinions, mine are just based on personal experiences and observations.
I can't please everybody. Maybe some of the issues come from a mass inability to properly focus and concentrate on the task in hand due to a mindless obsession with Social Media and the overwhelming compulsion to constantly check mobile phones, who knows.

 

[Diddy]

We all have different opinions, mine are just based on personal experiences and observations.
I can't please everybody. Maybe some of the issues come from a mass inability to properly focus and concentrate on the task in hand due to a mindless obsession with Social Media and the overwhelming compulsion to constantly check mobile phones, who knows.

So you having issues with apprentices not putting their phone down ? Hmm mines are always too busy in work time. There is NEVER nothing to do...Day 1 week 1.
BTW I am not having a go at YOU as a spark or teacher in your own right. The line you quoted along with the response must be the most often quoted statement concerning apprentices. I must have been very "lucky" with my pupils, All 10 completed their apprenticeship within the recognised time scale with no resits for anything practical nor indeed anything related to fault finding (AM2 and in college testing) - IF they had a question id answer it with my own..get em thinking. Make them feel valued but firm and fair. They all knew there were lines in the sand. Been to 5 weddings on the back of them lads....the other 5 ? Well who knows lol.

Anyway sorry and merry xmas and happy new year. It's obviously a bit of a bug bear of mine..I get that. I recall a distant time when I was the 16yo being told kids these days "we had to walk 10 miles to work with 2 drums of lead sheaved cable under our arms". In the end these kids are what WE produced and any shortcomings surely must sadly reflect on us as a generation not imparting the basics for these kids to build on.
Roll on the wireless sockets.

 

[Dave OCD]

No apologies needed, as I said we all have our own views. As for phones I'm lucky as I only have my 22 year old son working with me who also did his apprenticeship with me. He loves his work and only has a look at his phone at lunch time - and that's generally football related stuff. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too.

 

[Diddy]

For the sake of completeness one of my lads passed all his stuff, Done sparking for a year and then went on to become a bespoke conservatory installer. I think he does the electrical side himself but still...Maybe I put him off lol. Take care guys have a great next year.

 

[nicebutdim]

IF they had a question id answer it with my own..get em thinking.

By far the best way of teaching anything.

 

[Des 56]

Pardon me if this may have been stated previously, have not read whole of thread
Taking and passing the 2391 and 18th then doing test and inspection without being taught installation ?

Here is what can be found in Guidance note 3 regards the inspector

The inspector must have a sound knowledge and experience relevant to the nature of the installation being inspected and tested

That sentence above on its own seems to cover what the post author asked in his original question
Of course you must have experience, but unlike myself most on here are not going to have experience say of installations from the early seventies

If you lack historical experience on a installation, then make enquiry and find out
Anyone new to test and inspect can do little more
You can't become experienced at anything unless you are first inexperienced and either taught or self taught in order to gain the experience