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stirkytone

Hi everyone,
I've just set up on my own and after acouple of weeks everything is going ok. I am due to start a refurb of a shop which will reopen as a hairdressers.. its nothing too complicated just sockets and lights and change the board. I am not registerd with anyone yet and its a commercial property do i have to notify anybody of the work i have carried out.
 
You mean to say same incoming supply, not same meter. Shops usually have a different tariff than residential metering so will have a separate meter anyway. If a separate incoming supply the flat and shop have there own earthing arrangements and one will not effect the other which in this in this instance will not be notifiable to LABC.
 
You mean to say same incoming supply, not same meter. Shops usually have a different tariff than residential metering so will have a separate meter anyway. If a separate incoming supply the flat and shop have there own earthing arrangements and one will not effect the other which in this in this instance will not be notifiable to LABC.

No, I mean one incoming supply with one meter.
 
It dosent matter how many meters you have, if one common incomming supply feeding shop and flat then LABC need to be informed.

Regards one meter for shop and flat, how do you split the usage out for expenses for your tax return? :eek:It won't be accurate. It would make more sense to have your business energy consumption seperate from the dwelling as you would have two seperate accounts.
 
It dosent matter how many meters you have, if one common incomming supply feeding shop and flat then LABC need to be informed.

Regards one meter for shop and flat, how do you split the usage out for expenses for your tax return? :eek:It won't be accurate. It would make more sense to have your business energy consumption seperate from the dwelling as you would have two seperate accounts.

Thats up to the owner of the shop/flat if they only want one meter for both:rolleyes:
 
Thanks for the replys, the shop and the flat above both have individual supplies. another thig i have come across though is the buildiing has one incoming water supply and is bonded back to the MET on the flats supply,will this cover the shop as well?
 
It dosent matter how many meters you have, if one common incomming supply feeding shop and flat then LABC need to be informed.

Regards one meter for shop and flat, how do you split the usage out for expenses for your tax return? :eek:It won't be accurate. It would make more sense to have your business energy consumption seperate from the dwelling as you would have two seperate accounts.

where are you getting your information from fella?

you see, i'm a bluff old traditionalist and tend to follow the rules that are laid down

and the rules for this are laid down in Part P of the Building Regulations 2000

and the Approved Document to Part P specifically states if a business premises and a domestic dwelling share a common meter, then they both come under the auspices of Part P.

If they are on seperate meters, then the dwelling does, the business doesnt

Its got c@$K all to do with tax returns or energy consumptions!!!!!:mad:

and if you dont know something, try looking up the answer instead of making it up as you go along, as you are clearly doing:mad:

Thanks for the replys, the shop and the flat above both have individual supplies. another thig i have come across though is the buildiing has one incoming water supply and is bonded back to the MET on the flats supply,will this cover the shop as well?

depends; does it follow all the BS7671 guidleines?

i.e. within 600mm of meter or point of entry to the building, before any junctions etc etc

do a resistance check with a long fly lead if you are not sure, from the water pipes in the hairdressers to the incoming supply.

Personally, I would consider that each dis board needs to bonded to the incoming water / and / or gas (or any other extraneous conductive parts) in their own right
 
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where are you getting your information from fella?

you see, i'm a bluff old traditionalist and tend to follow the rules that are laid down

and the rules for this are laid down in Part P of the Building Regulations 2000

and the Approved Document to Part P specifically states if a business premises and a domestic dwelling share a common meter, then they both come under the auspices of Part P.

If they are on seperate meters, then the dwelling does, the business doesnt

Its got c@$K all to do with tax returns or energy consumptions!!!!!:mad:

and if you dont know something, try looking up the answer instead of making it up as you go along, as you are clearly doing:mad:



Well Shakey, Mr bluff old traditionalist get your facts right.

1. I am working to Part P building regs approved doc April 2006 not 2000 as your are!

2. The tax comment I made was a business observation not to do with Part P or the installation, you should read my comments more carefully.

3. Your comment is incorrect that if the dwelling and business are on separate meters then the business does not fall under part P. Incorrect. The meter is purely a measuring instrument and its fixture does not affect or split the two installations.

Part P Approved Document refers to ‘common supply’ NOT ‘common meter’ as you have commented incorrectly. The key word here is common supply not common meter. If there are two meters and two mains cut-outs for dwelling and business but are fed from same ‘common’ supply, ie same service cable then the business still falls under Part P. Why? Because the main earthing connection to the service cable is ‘common’ to both installations so therefore both installations come under Part P. You will not be able to do an earth loop test on the business without disconnecting the earth on the dwelling so will interfering with the dwelling installation so both come under Part P in this case. Only if the dwelling and the business are fed from separate incoming supplies, ie separate service cables including a looped service cable providing separate earthing, will the business not come under Part P.

Mr I am Part P registered have my own electrical contracting company. Previous 27 years with Electricity Board as engineer on power, both distribution and transmission, that’s 240V/415 as it was then to 132kV switching, and commissioning substation earth mats amongst other power related work. Four years spent on metering and tariffs domestic commercial and industrial. So your comments to me “where are you getting your information from fella? Think what you are typing and have the correct facts yourself first and not just ‘make them up’ as you have accused me of doing. My facts are from experience, Part P approved document (April 2006 page 6) not 2000 like you, BS7671 16th edition regulations, electricity supply regulations, electricity at work act, ECA. Need I go on.!! So Mr I have made nothing up but you may want to take an eye test as you are reading meter when it says supply. It makes a big difference.
 
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Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhh!!!!

*Looks to Shakey*

"Come on Shakey! Don't let him bitch slap you like that!!!! He said your making it up! He called you Mr.Part P!!!"

*Falls on floor laughing*

"Oh I couldn't quite believe what I was reading there..."

*Re-reads the posts*

Or did you say he was making it up?

*confused*
 
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hi,
i did a rewire on a shop conversion a few years ago ,it was changed from a large shop into 2 flats and 2 shops ,
the supply was 3 phase and the electric board fitted seperate meters to each ,
they didnt do anything to the supply cable,which i found supprising as it didnt seem very big ,35mm at the most,the shops went on a phase sach and the 2 flats on the other,i think the electric board cheated so they didnt have to put a new supply in,
it was pme earth and i was told to fit a suitable earth block,where the main earth from an isolator had to be connected,i had to fit seperate isolators and then feed the consumer units in 25mm 3core swa ,some guy from the electric board came and told me what to do!
i just had to tell him what the approx load was going to be ,
i guess its not so simple these days
one thing i remember ,apart from each unit having different tenants,was that the shops were on a different tariff,to the flats
does this help?
 
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On That Particular Job ,all Four Sections Of The Project Had To Have SEPERATE Building Regs Approval ,i Remember There Was A Major Problem With The Drains
One Of The Flats Never Got Finished Because Of It.

The Flats And Shops Were Rated Differently For All Services and had different addresses,one shop was even in a different street(corner plot)

As Far As I Can Remember,one Flat And One Shop Got Sold To One Buyer And The Other Was On The Market As A Seperate Property
Im Sure That The Electric Board Cheated,but I Think The Same Happend Quite A Lot,
This Was About 6 Years Ago ,and Im Sure The Supply Cable Should Have Been Changed.
If It Had Of Been I Suppose All The Units Would Have Been On There Own Supply
Ah Well
 
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where are you getting your information from fella?

you see, i'm a bluff old traditionalist and tend to follow the rules that are laid down

and the rules for this are laid down in Part P of the Building Regulations 2000

and the Approved Document to Part P specifically states if a business premises and a domestic dwelling share a common meter, then they both come under the auspices of Part P.

If they are on seperate meters, then the dwelling does, the business doesnt

Its got c@$K all to do with tax returns or energy consumptions!!!!!:mad:

and if you dont know something, try looking up the answer instead of making it up as you go along, as you are clearly doing:mad:



Well Shakey, Mr bluff old traditionalist get your facts right.

1. I am working to Part P building regs approved doc April 2006 not 2000 as your are!

2. The tax comment I made was a business observation not to do with Part P or the installation, you should read my comments more carefully.

3. Your comment is incorrect that if the dwelling and business are on separate meters then the business does not fall under part P. Incorrect. The meter is purely a measuring instrument and its fixture does not affect or split the two installations.

Part P Approved Document refers to ‘common supply’ NOT ‘common meter’ as you have commented incorrectly. The key word here is common supply not common meter. If there are two meters and two mains cut-outs for dwelling and business but are fed from same ‘common’ supply, ie same service cable then the business still falls under Part P. Why? Because the main earthing connection to the service cable is ‘common’ to both installations so therefore both installations come under Part P. You will not be able to do an earth loop test on the business without disconnecting the earth on the dwelling so will interfering with the dwelling installation so both come under Part P in this case. Only if the dwelling and the business are fed from separate incoming supplies, ie separate service cables including a looped service cable providing separate earthing, will the business not come under Part P.

Mr I am Part P registered have my own electrical contracting company. Previous 27 years with Electricity Board as engineer on power, both distribution and transmission, that’s 240V/415 as it was then to 132kV switching, and commissioning substation earth mats amongst other power related work. Four years spent on metering and tariffs domestic commercial and industrial. So your comments to me “where are you getting your information from fella? Think what you are typing and have the correct facts yourself first and not just ‘make them up’ as you have accused me of doing. My facts are from experience, Part P approved document (April 2006 page 6) not 2000 like you, BS7671 16th edition regulations, electricity supply regulations, electricity at work act, ECA. Need I go on.!! So Mr I have made nothing up but you may want to take an eye test as you are reading meter when it says supply. It makes a big difference.

Ok Mazdaman,

sorry for the way i 'went at you', bad day and all that

I have no wish to fight, so lets keep this simple, and maybe we can all beneifit from it.

Firstly I have no idea what the 2000 version of the approved document looks like, seeing as it was origianally released in 2005! Additionally, what is the relevance of BS7671, ESQR's or EAWR's (I presume that's what you meant by 'electricity at work act)?

regardless of the requirement to comply with Part P, the installations should comply with BS7671 (and by default, the EAWR's), and as you well know, there is no mention of Part P in these documents.

And the ECA? As in the Electrical Contractors Association? That's like saying 'NICEIC' said so - and you know that neither have any authority.

Ok back to the point in question, I concede that the 2006 Approved Document DOES say 'common supply' not 'common meter'

However, it does not elaborate any further.

Hopefully you will have read the posts, and I can assure you, you are (in my experience) in an extremelly small minority with your point of view (as in a minority of one)

The posts from Access Training were particularly interesting, what is your view of the points made? I cannot see any way that your 'common service cable' view point would be able to work on a practical or legislative level

Now in the abscence of any further evidence on the subject, I would refer you to the 'Electricians Guide to the Building Regulations'

This is authored and published by the IEE (now the IET) who, as you know, author and publish BS7671

I would say that gives them a 'bit of clout';)

Anyway:

Page 15 para 1.3.2 Scope of Part P

"Part P applies to electrical installations in buildings or parts of buildings comprising:

(ii) dwellings and business premises that have a common METERED SUPPLY - for example shops and public houses with a flat above with a COMMON METER"

The following page Fig 1.3.2 there are anumber of diagrams which helpfully show that is the meter, not the 'service cable' that is the common factor

and in case there is any lingering doubt it states clearly below it


"Part P does NOT apply to:

(i) business premises in the same building as dwellings with SEPERATE METERING"




Ok, is there anything further to add?

Dont think so

Like I said, dont wanna fight, but if you have a better counter argument to your lone position, please, I would like to here it, we are all here to learn after all;)


Note to the Master, Bane

Am I 'un-bitch slapped' now:p
 
I think you own MazdaMan, Shakey. :)

"Hopefully you will have read the posts, and I can assure you, you are (in my experience) in an extremelly small minority with your point of view (as in a minority of one)"

^^^^^^^^^
VERY FUNNY :)
 
Hairdressers {filename} | ElectriciansForums.net


HERES SOME BULLETS FOR THE GUN YOURE LOADING ,BANE;)
 
Ok Shakey I accept your apology, let’s shake hands and move on and work together.

I have noted your quotes re the 'Electricians Guide to the Building Regulations'
You refer to Page 15 para 1.3.2 Scope of Part P

I must have a different copy than you because on mine its on page 25, section 5.4. and reads as follows:

‘THE SCOPE OF PART P

Examples of the application of Part P include electrical installations in buildings or parts of buildings comprising:
Dwelling houses and flats
Dwellings and business premises that have a common supply – for example shops and public houses with a flat above:

Yes that’s right mine says ‘common supply’ not ‘common metering’.
I think between us we may have found the route cause of confusion, a misprint in one of the publications. I assume the misprint is in your copy because mine corresponds to the part P approved document as you have confirmed says ‘common supply’.

I assume you have the green book. The one I have is white and is a joint publication between the NICEIC and the ECA endorsed by the DSA and LABC

Perhaps Mr Access Training can check this out if you have copies of both publications and anyone else on here that has a copy of either book.
Your write Mr Training this is getting interesting, but I still stand by my comments that the supply is the cable not the meter.

Confusion here is that the meter is the demarcation point between the supplier and the installation and may be regarded as the ‘point of supply’. In fact the definition from the Electricity Supply Regulations is ‘supply terminals’ but not ‘supply’.

I have other examples I could explain but before we go any further lets clarify if there is a misprint in either publication as I have mentioned above.

Anyone got the Electrical Installers Guide to the Building Regulations? Would appreciate what comment yours reads, ‘common metering’ or ‘common supply’, under the heading The Scope of Part P. Please indicate which book/ publisher.
 
Part P applies to electrical installations in buildings comprising:


.
dwelling houses and flats
.


dwellings and business premises that have a common supply . for example shops and public
houses that have a shop above;
.


common access areas in blocks of flats such as corridors and staircases;
.


shared amenities of blocks of flats such as laundries and gymnasiums.
Part P applies also to parts of the above electrical installations:
.


in or on land associated with the buildings . for example Part P applies to fixed lighting and pond
pumps in gardens;
. in outbuildings such as sheds, detached garages and greenhouses.
Amicus Technical Bulletin November 2004
AMICUS technical bullitin 2004,
.....................................................................................................................
as you can see my version says this ,hope that doesnt confuse things to much.
for some reason this didnt paste quite right but i have the whole amicus document on pdf,but i does say common supply.

 
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Ok Shakey I accept your apology, let’s shake hands and move on and work together.

I have noted your quotes re the 'Electricians Guide to the Building Regulations'
You refer to Page 15 para 1.3.2 Scope of Part P

I must have a different copy than you because on mine its on page 25, section 5.4. and reads as follows:

‘THE SCOPE OF PART P

Examples of the application of Part P include electrical installations in buildings or parts of buildings comprising:
Dwelling houses and flats
Dwellings and business premises that have a common supply – for example shops and public houses with a flat above:

Yes that’s right mine says ‘common supply’ not ‘common metering’.
I think between us we may have found the route cause of confusion, a misprint in one of the publications. I assume the misprint is in your copy because mine corresponds to the part P approved document as you have confirmed says ‘common supply’.

I assume you have the green book. The one I have is white and is a joint publication between the NICEIC and the ECA endorsed by the DSA and LABC

Perhaps Mr Access Training can check this out if you have copies of both publications and anyone else on here that has a copy of either book.
Your write Mr Training this is getting interesting, but I still stand by my comments that the supply is the cable not the meter.

Confusion here is that the meter is the demarcation point between the supplier and the installation and may be regarded as the ‘point of supply’. In fact the definition from the Electricity Supply Regulations is ‘supply terminals’ but not ‘supply’.

I have other examples I could explain but before we go any further lets clarify if there is a misprint in either publication as I have mentioned above.

Anyone got the Electrical Installers Guide to the Building Regulations? Would appreciate what comment yours reads, ‘common metering’ or ‘common supply’, under the heading The Scope of Part P. Please indicate which book/ publisher.

Ok, glad we are moving on

I think the book you have is a different book

The IEE's Electrcian's Guide to the Building Regs has, and always has had, a green cover.

the problem is many of the documents refer to 'common supply', do you have any that sepcifically refer to 'common service cable'?

My IEE book has 5 VERY clear diagrams, to avoid any confusion

On each diagram they specifically label the source of electricity supplly, the electricity supply meter, and the intake switchgear

Interestingly, four of the diagrams are shop/ flat type examples, and the meter is FIRST, then the 'Source of electricity supply' is next. The remaining diagram is of a block of flats, then its

Intake switch gear - then source of electricity supply then meter IN EACH FLAT

in each diagram they clearly show that if there is one 'service cable' but seperate meters, thren each metered supply is shown as coming under Part P in its own right. Indeed, in the flats example, there is a business unit on the ground floor, which is NOT under Part P, despite being on the same 'service cable' as the rest of the building - which completely follws Access Training's argument

these other diagrams clearly show one meter, both under Part P, seperate meters Business not Part P, dwelling is Part P

I honestly believe that the intention is always the meter, and the examples used by Access Training clearly show that this is the only way it could practically work.

Those documents that state 'common supply' are, to me, following the IEE's lead in that the supply is specifically TO THE BUSINESS/DWELLING CONCERNED, ie AFTER the meter.

If you can find anything conclusive that differentiates, in writing, that they are specifically referring to the service cable, then please, I need to see it (so would i suspect the IEE and every other electrician I have ever discussed this with)

Also, as a tutor on the EAL DEI course, which includes module 001 - Applicable Building Regs for Electrical Installations, if you are correct, I would have a great many students to contact!!!
 
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