I need help on pricing a job, I don't want to come in too cheap or too expensive. I've been to see a massive 3 storey, 10 bed room property in need of a full rewire, it has 6 en-suites, two bathrooms, two kitchens and two living/receptions . The guy wants low energy spot lights all through out, in total there are 136 spots, its has a three phase supply. He will provide all materials and wants a top of the range job done. Any ideas??
- Thread starter Mad Spark
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Help me pricing a job.
Discuss Help me pricing a job. in the Business Related area at ElectriciansForums.net
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Will you be responsible for the full design?
P
pennywise
20-25k but then again how long is a piece of string?. Hope you get the job would be a nice one to see in the new year.
L
Lucas
I'd probably go for £35 a point. Work out how many point's are going too be in the house and multiply it by 35, should give a pretty accurate price.
Best of luck
Best of luck
A
accordfire
Initial ideas......
Design, as someone else has said - who's doing that and signing off on it? Big job, you might want to sub that out if it is down to you, for reasons of cost, time, and butt covering.
Once you have the design, you can start to look at what he wants on a room by room, floor by floor basis.
Either way, looks like potentially a phase per floor - depending on what else you're using the 3PH for. Break it down into effectively three new installs......and the common part - distribution.
Staged payments. I know you say labour only, but it's still going to be a fair amount of dollar. You want paying every month minimum.
Earth arrangements? Groundworks? Decor around your work? Who's dealing with all that?
Top quality comes at a price - so make sure you price accordingly, as it sounds like everything chased in, lighting control logic, and fancy bits all the way - which take time commissioning and programming.
It all hinges on you getting the design right - without a proper design, quantities, and an understanding of the work you need to actually do on site (cable runs, and so forth), you're just guessing, and might well be way too low, or as bad, way too high.
I
ian
I think Accordfire is right, you cant even begin to price this before you design the installation, then agree it with the client then cost it. Things like fancy hall and wall lights I always get the client to buy, because the lights I would choose are generally not what the client wants.
You also need to consider the location of the C.Us. If the house is 3 stores, would you want to consider installing C.Us on other floors? Need to be careful of the 3 phase. Don’t want to be having mixed voltages at switches etc. I would probably try to have one phase for the top 2 floors, another for bottom floor, kitchen etc and the 3rd for halls and common areas. (Or something like that…difficult to say without seeing it) You will also need to consider what are you expected to do regarding heating controls. I would hazard a guess with a house that size a conventional heating system will be installed, so you will need to think about what you will be expected to do for that.
I have done a few big projects like this. At the end of the day it’s just a big house. You need to apply the same principles as you would a 3-bed semi. E.g., whose doing the plastering will there be garden or O/S lights either now or in the near future, if so who is digging the trenches? Break the project up into manageable size bits.
Is the project going to be managed, if not how are you going to liase with other trades. That can be relatively time consuming itself, particularly if you need to nip round now and then to see how other trades are getting on so you can continue.
What’s the house going to be used for? If its going to be a guest house, small hotel or similar, you will also need to consider fire alarms, EM lights etc.
I wish you luck with this project; I would love to get involved in something like this again. Be methodical and systematic about the design, you really cant afford to get that wrong.
You also need to consider the location of the C.Us. If the house is 3 stores, would you want to consider installing C.Us on other floors? Need to be careful of the 3 phase. Don’t want to be having mixed voltages at switches etc. I would probably try to have one phase for the top 2 floors, another for bottom floor, kitchen etc and the 3rd for halls and common areas. (Or something like that…difficult to say without seeing it) You will also need to consider what are you expected to do regarding heating controls. I would hazard a guess with a house that size a conventional heating system will be installed, so you will need to think about what you will be expected to do for that.
I have done a few big projects like this. At the end of the day it’s just a big house. You need to apply the same principles as you would a 3-bed semi. E.g., whose doing the plastering will there be garden or O/S lights either now or in the near future, if so who is digging the trenches? Break the project up into manageable size bits.
Is the project going to be managed, if not how are you going to liase with other trades. That can be relatively time consuming itself, particularly if you need to nip round now and then to see how other trades are getting on so you can continue.
What’s the house going to be used for? If its going to be a guest house, small hotel or similar, you will also need to consider fire alarms, EM lights etc.
I wish you luck with this project; I would love to get involved in something like this again. Be methodical and systematic about the design, you really cant afford to get that wrong.
I went through the job with him earlier on today. He made it pretty clear that he wants me to decide where to position what. The only thing he pointed out was the number of points, as I mentioned earlier its 136 spot lights in the whole building, he has 2 bathrooms and 6 en-suites, in each he wants to have lights in alcoves by the bath/shower, in each bedroom there are 3 twins, bar two where he wants 4 twins. In the kitchens he wants to have a control panel for all appliances as a pose to having fcu's for each appliance (first time I heard that but apparently he's had it done in other properties). He wants the usual low level sockets powering his appliances, with 6 twins at the higher level.
All work is to be chased in to walls, the plastering and any other work is to be carried out by other contractors. He has his builder managing the project.
I was considering going in at £3500. Does that sound about right.
All work is to be chased in to walls, the plastering and any other work is to be carried out by other contractors. He has his builder managing the project.
I was considering going in at £3500. Does that sound about right.
A
accordfire
Hi Madspark
Not sure where in the country you are, but for all that, £3500 sounds very low.
You've got yourself an idea of where you'll run cable, etc. That's good. You know his requirements in outline.
But.
There's a hell of a lot of calculation in all of this - cable sizing, demand, diversity, and more not withstanding. It needs proper design, fella - and part of that will be knowing what kit you're going to be fitting, especially with the lighting.
The control panel thing - rather than fcu's everywhere - easy enough - MK Gridswitch. But doing it that way, you're upping the amount of cable you'll need, and in turn the length of the various radials for the appliances...hate to say it, but again, don't catch a cold mate - get a professional designer to work out your cable runs, sizes, boards, distribution, the lot. Meet him on site, with your customer, and go through it. You'll both be glad you did.
Even opening the chases it sounds like you're going to need will be a mission in work - before you consider running the cable, capping or conduiting it, and on and on. Then 136 holes to cut into the ceilings...., then second fix how many socket outlets, plate switches, and such.
Then don't forget utlities, any outhouses or cupboards.
Ballpark ,doing it on your own, or with a lad, you're looking at a good two to three months work. Your price, even if labour only, makes you about £1100 - £1200 a month - £290 or so a week - and at that you don't have time for other jobs. It's a lot to take on.
Oh - another thing. Make very sure you have a clause in whatever you finally agree that limits your work to what you agree and that anything at all outside the scope of the entitles you to additional money. Too many of these jobs end up with you suddenly running Sky, phone wiring, fire alarms, emergency lighting "while you're at it" - and your £1100 a month suddenly has to extend another month, meaning that £3500 you charged is slave money.
I'm not knocking the job or the customer - don't think that - just trying to give you good advice.
A job this size has to have a proper certificated design for so many reasons - the fact it's three phase, the size of the property, the number of calculations, even considering where diversity and other corrective factors can and cannot apply.
It isn't like it's a week long new 8 way board, two rings, two light feeds, and a radial for the heating.
Considering what another of the posters said - even as a rule of thumb - at £35 a point, just with the little you've said so far - the lighting you've mentioned alone would bring you to £4760. Looking at it from a pure time point of view, realistically, it will be your entire livelihood for two or three months, and you need a living wage from it (I'm guessing) - and certificating the install is probably going to be about a week in itself - you're looking more at that £3500 being per month.
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Yes, per floor!
Just a thought, do you have professional indemnity insurance to cover your design?
R
Ross Trician
hello, just my bit of info on a largish job I did about 3 years ago. it started as the usuall i light per room etc and minimal sockets and eneded up much bigger.
it was a 6 bed house, all ensuite. as a quick guid there were 3 floors, 1x c/u for each. 2x elec showers, approx 180 spots. center fan lights, 130 sockets, 2x oven feeds, some outdoor lighting, spot lighting on the stairs on each tread, (3flights), under floor heating(wet) and boilr ccts to wire up. smokes to each floor, each room was on its own ring(customers request)
I charged them 8k and they provided materials.
will advise you to get it all agreeds up front, costs, who is buying what, when you will get paid, how you will get paid etc.
it was a 6 bed house, all ensuite. as a quick guid there were 3 floors, 1x c/u for each. 2x elec showers, approx 180 spots. center fan lights, 130 sockets, 2x oven feeds, some outdoor lighting, spot lighting on the stairs on each tread, (3flights), under floor heating(wet) and boilr ccts to wire up. smokes to each floor, each room was on its own ring(customers request)
I charged them 8k and they provided materials.
will advise you to get it all agreeds up front, costs, who is buying what, when you will get paid, how you will get paid etc.
- Reaction score
- 39
One other point is that as he will be supplying all materials what are you going to do if you arrive on site to find the bits he ordered have not arrived, delays need to be chargable, this will need to be in your contract. Also working in the rooms under the bathrooms could be tricky if they all have tiled floors, may have to have cielings down. i would do a detailed investigation room by room making a note of where i will be feeding cable from and checking what decore will be damaged as when you start chopping they start saying stuff like " you can't damage that picture rail" and you have to spend time pratting around.
"prepair to succeed, don't prepair to fail"
"prepair to succeed, don't prepair to fail"
S
shamaca
if i was you. i,d bye all for one, two ,rooms,one floor?.show cliant resiets.he's happy you are.then add time.stage by stage.he's not picking colours? he pays per stage.stage up to you?
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What on earth are you trying to say?
Wow, just goes to show how far off I was. Thanks to all your useful posts guys, much appreciated. I have a rough idea as to what I will do. I didn't feel before that i needed a designer, I can do all calculations for cable sizes,diversity etc myself. But thinking about the scale of the job at hand I understand why its necessary to use a designer.
I didn't want to charge too much as we are in the middle of a recession and no one has any money, thats why I thought what we could charge before we cant any more.
I have taken all on board and am really happy to have you guys to ask for help when there is no one else to turn to.
Thanks a lot guys.
I didn't want to charge too much as we are in the middle of a recession and no one has any money, thats why I thought what we could charge before we cant any more.
I have taken all on board and am really happy to have you guys to ask for help when there is no one else to turn to.
Thanks a lot guys.
S
shamaca
iam saying.don,t jump in over your head.keep cliant happy.if you can price job without seeing?go on stage.
P
pennywise
Yep sterling! it is a guesstimate
. Again there are so many variables to consider as everyone has mentioned, do they expect you to to do any structured cabling data, HI fi, Burglar alarms home automation wiring. The chases are they in solid engineering brick etc is there a suspended floor/basement. The amount of time you'll be advising the client and being at their beck and call for the duration of the job, waiting times for decisions to be made on positions and finish, There is so much out of hours work to consider. The client getting the parts issue is a nightmare if you ask me but then you probably don't have a choice. Can garrentee you'll be going back and forth to the job more times than you could ever imagine
A
accordfire
Your feedback is good for all of us too, fella. And refreshing - so many times, someone asks for advice, it gets given, and then just silence.
Most times, most of us can get away without the "design" element - which is to say, we roll it into the job as part of the price, write the spec, then go knock the job out.
Then we hit a job that looks like it's all the paydays we've ever had rolled into one, and the gut instinct is to win that job, no matter what - effectively, to go out and impress. We can handle it, we can take anything on. Those are the jobs that end up doing us.
In this particular case, though, it's a perfect example of where taking the approach of bringing the right guys in and realising your own limitations is what really makes the job. I think it feels like a dent in our pride and skill sometimes when someone turns round and says "Use a designer" - because it sounds like a challenge to our own expertise. It isn't though, and the smart money knows that.
What you're doing is buying in an insurance, firstly - you've got somewhere to go if it all goes pear shaped. Secondly, you're taking away the headache of this guy changing his mind half way through the lighting design - and you suddenly realise that what you've done so far isn't going to work on 1mm T&E and that you now need to rip it all out and start again with 2.5 CSA, for example. Thirdly, you're buying in the confidence to get on site and get the job done without worrying about doing calcs on the fly, wondering if you'll actually have capacity at the DB, because you've added an extra ring final along the way, or had a change of lighting scheme.
You're also removing headaches of so many other things, and ultimately, for a fixed price, you get a design that's calculated to work, removes all the guess work, is certificated on someone else's buck, and that you can walk away from, knowing you've installed to the Standard, and hence have a safe job that works.
Professional design also gives you another set of eyes on the job - it highlights things we all miss of our quotes - maybe only a few Henley blocks, or a reel or two of cable, but the real key here is that you can go to your customer and tell him up front - he's spending say £10k on materials, and know that you're not going back to him in a month saying you need to spend another 4k on more "bits". You look better as a result. You look like you're in charge, and know what you're doing, because you do.
By doing this, you can also accurately define your time scales too - because you know the total extent of what you've got to do. Again, guess work removed. The only challenge now is making sure your runs are as you thought they might be.
Where your ability to do the calculations comes in is when the customer asks for extras (as they almost always do) - you'll KNOW what you've got spare, where you can add those extras in and what the pitfalls are - because you know exactly what you started with.
Other than that, the thing that gets highlighted in a job like this is contractual.
You're now in a position to say this is the job I'm doing, with these materials, and it will take this amount of time.
From that you have a far better chance of covering your rear, and putting in terms that work to your advantage - like staged payments, like extra time for delays, like remembering not to guarantee parts you haven't supplied, and like knowing the limitations of the original job, and hence what is extra and chargeable.
This way, no matter how long the job, you'll come out of it profitable, and covered - you're not thinking it'll only take a couple of weeks, and the guy will hand over £10k or whatever no problem at the end - you're covering him and you as you go.
I say well done you - Mad Spark - and ask away - pretty well everyone here is happy to help if they can.
A
accordfire
What are you typing on? A calculator?
Seriously - spaces, punctuation, Capital Letters - they all make things a little more readable.
For the record, clients are normally happiest when you DO jump in over your head, screw the price up in their favour, and give 'em the world for nothing.
Not sure where you got the notion that anyone was pricing the job without seeing, as the guy said right at the start, "I went to see a job this afternoon...."
I don't think IQ was the only one that doesn't really get what it is you're adding to this thread. What's going on stage got to do with anything?
Personally when a client insists on a top spec job, which is pretty big i charge by the day until job complete and payment due end of every week. talk it iver with the client and give him a rough time frame, and stippilate if he does change anything mid course (they always do) it will obviously take longer. and if he dosnt get the right gear its on his head if you have wait. hope this helps mate good luck on the job.
A
andekoch
be very clear on your scope and charge for extras. i have a clear scope sheet showing the point (lights, switches, sockets etc) per room. On a recent job, 3 bed house, the client scope called for 80 points and by the end of the job he had added 27 points and wanted to know why the final price was 25% higher than the original estimate and why it was taking soooo much longer. when I showed him the original estimate sheet, which he had, plus the requests for extras and the total of 107, he quickly agreed to pay only 25% more (since he had asked for 33% more points). what I am saying is if it can so easily grow that much on a 'small' job it is very likely to grow on your job.
once again accordfire I am happy to have guys like you who care for guys like me and give out advice which is relevant.
Just a question, what would you charge for chasing out one channel. This would give me an idea of the price as I can multiply this by the total number of chases.
S
shamaca
sorry. i think forums are for people to have say?up to person to disided?
p.s. iam not a secutery?c.u. not worth my time.
p.s. iam not a secutery?c.u. not worth my time.
G
Giovanni
£3500! Is that the first months payment?! Not a chance!
G
Giovanni
£3500!!!! Is that the first months payment?!?! You have to wonder!
A
accordfire
Always happy to help.
Generally I'd price it at around two metres an hour - in your typical brick/breeze. Depending on the job, I'd price at around one metre an hour in concrete (and an hour a day to cover the cost of changing/sharpening chisels).
As a poster below says, it's work for a lad, who should be in a day ahead of you to open at least that amount of chasing to let me get on. So you could, I guess take the cost of a lad for a day, and add a margin for overhead (say you've 300m of chase in brick, divide by 16 = 18 3/4 days, plus 20% for the "human" effect (slowing down, flagging) = 22.5 days. So charge your lad's rate x 22.5 and then add a profit margin - say 35%, which will allow room for issues, room for a small bonus (specially after all that chasing lol) - so if you're paying your lad £80 a day, then you'll run £80 * 22.5 = £1800, plus 35% profit margin = £630 + £1800 = £2430 = cost of £8.10 per metre - which is cheaper than the first method of 2m per hour - which is the rate you'd want if you're going to do all the chase work too (brave!).
Don't forget to include for capping on your parts list (or to charge for it as part of the "labour" element - I would also say, don't forget to add for your fixings, and so forth too.
A
accordfire
Um, Shamaca? Sorry you're going - if that's how ya feel.
The point was, I believe, that people couldn't really understand what you were saying. Or trying to.
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Where on earth did you get that idea from?
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