Personally when a client insists on a top spec job, which is pretty big i charge by the day until job complete and payment due end of every week. talk it iver with the client and give him a rough time frame, and stippilate if he does change anything mid course (they always do) it will obviously take longer. and if he dosnt get the right gear its on his head if you have wait. hope this helps mate good luck on the job.
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once again accordfire I am happy to have guys like you who care for guys like me and give out advice which is relevant.
Just a question, what would you charge for chasing out one channel. This would give me an idea of the price as I can multiply this by the total number of chases.
Always happy to help.
Generally I'd price it at around two metres an hour - in your typical brick/breeze. Depending on the job, I'd price at around one metre an hour in concrete (and an hour a day to cover the cost of changing/sharpening chisels).
As a poster below says, it's work for a lad, who should be in a day ahead of you to open at least that amount of chasing to let me get on. So you could, I guess take the cost of a lad for a day, and add a margin for overhead (say you've 300m of chase in brick, divide by 16 = 18 3/4 days, plus 20% for the "human" effect (slowing down, flagging) = 22.5 days. So charge your lad's rate x 22.5 and then add a profit margin - say 35%, which will allow room for issues, room for a small bonus (specially after all that chasing lol) - so if you're paying your lad £80 a day, then you'll run £80 * 22.5 = £1800, plus 35% profit margin = £630 + £1800 = £2430 = cost of £8.10 per metre - which is cheaper than the first method of 2m per hour - which is the rate you'd want if you're going to do all the chase work too (brave!).
Don't forget to include for capping on your parts list (or to charge for it as part of the "labour" element - I would also say, don't forget to add for your fixings, and so forth too.
Um, Shamaca? Sorry you're going - if that's how ya feel.
The point was, I believe, that people couldn't really understand what you were saying. Or trying to.
Where on earth did you get that idea from?
Good points - and exactly why you need to make sure you agree the work to be done up front, in detail. You need to have the customer sign a contract/agreement, that outlines your terms for all these eventualities.
There's a procedure we follow for every job we do, from I don't know, an extra socket outlet, to a national multi-site fit out programme.
From initial enquiry, we do a specification, or scope of work (essentially a site visit or from plans), to identify exactly what it is the customer wants or needs.
We then submit this to the customer for approval and signature of agreement. With that goes out standard t&Cs, plus a list of what we DON'T do in that scope - e.g. making good, redecoration, redesign, specialist access (unless priced for because we knew we would definitely need it), work outside of normal hours, waiting, and so on.
We also make it clear that we're happy to price for any or all of these things too, and will vary the quote in writing to that effect if requested. We then amend the specification so that everybody remains dead clear on what's to be done.
Together with this comes a one page quotation, which includes the general terms of business - the price, when we expect to deliver, what we include (bill of quantities), how we expect to be paid, what we do for delays, non-supply of materials (whether they supply or we do, different rules, but covered), and so on.
Customer will then send us back our signed request to work form, with his Purchase Order (we only work commercials). At this point, we have explicit written agreement to a clearly defined work project, and everyone knows where we stand in respect of pretty well any eventuality.
When, as often happens, a variation comes up - either because during install we find we can't do something a particular way because of one reason or another (our design excepting), or because of the customer wanting extra, we revise the specification with an insert to account the additional work, and quote it up front, get the signature, and the PO, and get the work done.
On final completion, we hand over an "as fitted" specification - which show the job as it completed. I've yet to see a project over and above the simplest of add-on jobs have an as fitted spec look the same as the initial quoted spec.
Sure, it's a lot of paperwork, and for a lot of jobs we use shortform versions of what we do to minimise this, but, on the whole that extra paperwork has paid off when it comes to satisfaction on the customer's part, and getting us paid. There are, like everyone, a couple of exceptions to that rule, but ironially, the major job we've had issues getting paid on, was one that was agreed and compelted outside the scope of our (now) mandatory paperwork process.
It's worth spending the time in the detail, and building up templates to cover these kind of things.
Generic term, my friend - light fitting, socket, switch, fcu, you name it.
Easy way of building up labour timing on a quote - so you know it takes you say half an hour a light fitting, then a point is half an hour - you have ten light fittings, you know that's roughly five hours of labour. Etc.
Discuss Help me pricing a job. in the Business Related area at ElectriciansForums.net
A
andekoch
be very clear on your scope and charge for extras. i have a clear scope sheet showing the point (lights, switches, sockets etc) per room. On a recent job, 3 bed house, the client scope called for 80 points and by the end of the job he had added 27 points and wanted to know why the final price was 25% higher than the original estimate and why it was taking soooo much longer. when I showed him the original estimate sheet, which he had, plus the requests for extras and the total of 107, he quickly agreed to pay only 25% more (since he had asked for 33% more points). what I am saying is if it can so easily grow that much on a 'small' job it is very likely to grow on your job.
once again accordfire I am happy to have guys like you who care for guys like me and give out advice which is relevant.
Just a question, what would you charge for chasing out one channel. This would give me an idea of the price as I can multiply this by the total number of chases.
S
shamaca
sorry. i think forums are for people to have say?up to person to disided?
p.s. iam not a secutery?c.u. not worth my time.
p.s. iam not a secutery?c.u. not worth my time.
G
Giovanni
£3500! Is that the first months payment?! Not a chance!
G
Giovanni
£3500!!!! Is that the first months payment?!?! You have to wonder!
A
accordfire
Always happy to help.
Generally I'd price it at around two metres an hour - in your typical brick/breeze. Depending on the job, I'd price at around one metre an hour in concrete (and an hour a day to cover the cost of changing/sharpening chisels).
As a poster below says, it's work for a lad, who should be in a day ahead of you to open at least that amount of chasing to let me get on. So you could, I guess take the cost of a lad for a day, and add a margin for overhead (say you've 300m of chase in brick, divide by 16 = 18 3/4 days, plus 20% for the "human" effect (slowing down, flagging) = 22.5 days. So charge your lad's rate x 22.5 and then add a profit margin - say 35%, which will allow room for issues, room for a small bonus (specially after all that chasing lol) - so if you're paying your lad £80 a day, then you'll run £80 * 22.5 = £1800, plus 35% profit margin = £630 + £1800 = £2430 = cost of £8.10 per metre - which is cheaper than the first method of 2m per hour - which is the rate you'd want if you're going to do all the chase work too (brave!).
Don't forget to include for capping on your parts list (or to charge for it as part of the "labour" element - I would also say, don't forget to add for your fixings, and so forth too.
A
accordfire
Um, Shamaca? Sorry you're going - if that's how ya feel.
The point was, I believe, that people couldn't really understand what you were saying. Or trying to.
- Reaction score
- 1,512
Where on earth did you get that idea from?
A
accordfire
1
1shortcircuit
This is a great thread and there are some very informative posts
One thing I would like to ask is, if the builder is managing the project then how much more work is going to be going on in the property whilst you are on site?
I have been working in a property recently that has thrown up challenges involving working alongside other tradespeople who have no respect for what it is you are doing and certainly don't treat your cable with the care that you know it needs. This could create a massive headache when it comes to IR testing.
Silly little things like not being able to get into rooms due to other works will certainly keep you mentally tested. Probably best to keep a log of exactly what you have done or more importantly, what you were unable to do.
Is the property going to be lived in or is the owner vacating the premises whilst the work is carried out? You could end up finding that the amount of items that need moving could add up to days as opposed to hours in labour.
I wish you good luck in your bid and hope you walk away with a nice little sum in your pocket too
1shortcircuit
One thing I would like to ask is, if the builder is managing the project then how much more work is going to be going on in the property whilst you are on site?
I have been working in a property recently that has thrown up challenges involving working alongside other tradespeople who have no respect for what it is you are doing and certainly don't treat your cable with the care that you know it needs. This could create a massive headache when it comes to IR testing.
Silly little things like not being able to get into rooms due to other works will certainly keep you mentally tested. Probably best to keep a log of exactly what you have done or more importantly, what you were unable to do.
Is the property going to be lived in or is the owner vacating the premises whilst the work is carried out? You could end up finding that the amount of items that need moving could add up to days as opposed to hours in labour.
I wish you good luck in your bid and hope you walk away with a nice little sum in your pocket too
1shortcircuit
A
accordfire
This is a great thread and there are some very informative posts
One thing I would like to ask is, if the builder is managing the project then how much more work is going to be going on in the property whilst you are on site?
I have been working in a property recently that has thrown up challenges involving working alongside other tradespeople who have no respect for what it is you are doing and certainly don't treat your cable with the care that you know it needs. This could create a massive headache when it comes to IR testing.
Silly little things like not being able to get into rooms due to other works will certainly keep you mentally tested. Probably best to keep a log of exactly what you have done or more importantly, what you were unable to do.
Is the property going to be lived in or is the owner vacating the premises whilst the work is carried out? You could end up finding that the amount of items that need moving could add up to days as opposed to hours in labour.
I wish you good luck in your bid and hope you walk away with a nice little sum in your pocket too
1shortcircuit
Good points - and exactly why you need to make sure you agree the work to be done up front, in detail. You need to have the customer sign a contract/agreement, that outlines your terms for all these eventualities.
There's a procedure we follow for every job we do, from I don't know, an extra socket outlet, to a national multi-site fit out programme.
From initial enquiry, we do a specification, or scope of work (essentially a site visit or from plans), to identify exactly what it is the customer wants or needs.
We then submit this to the customer for approval and signature of agreement. With that goes out standard t&Cs, plus a list of what we DON'T do in that scope - e.g. making good, redecoration, redesign, specialist access (unless priced for because we knew we would definitely need it), work outside of normal hours, waiting, and so on.
We also make it clear that we're happy to price for any or all of these things too, and will vary the quote in writing to that effect if requested. We then amend the specification so that everybody remains dead clear on what's to be done.
Together with this comes a one page quotation, which includes the general terms of business - the price, when we expect to deliver, what we include (bill of quantities), how we expect to be paid, what we do for delays, non-supply of materials (whether they supply or we do, different rules, but covered), and so on.
Customer will then send us back our signed request to work form, with his Purchase Order (we only work commercials). At this point, we have explicit written agreement to a clearly defined work project, and everyone knows where we stand in respect of pretty well any eventuality.
When, as often happens, a variation comes up - either because during install we find we can't do something a particular way because of one reason or another (our design excepting), or because of the customer wanting extra, we revise the specification with an insert to account the additional work, and quote it up front, get the signature, and the PO, and get the work done.
On final completion, we hand over an "as fitted" specification - which show the job as it completed. I've yet to see a project over and above the simplest of add-on jobs have an as fitted spec look the same as the initial quoted spec.
Sure, it's a lot of paperwork, and for a lot of jobs we use shortform versions of what we do to minimise this, but, on the whole that extra paperwork has paid off when it comes to satisfaction on the customer's part, and getting us paid. There are, like everyone, a couple of exceptions to that rule, but ironially, the major job we've had issues getting paid on, was one that was agreed and compelted outside the scope of our (now) mandatory paperwork process.
It's worth spending the time in the detail, and building up templates to cover these kind of things.
A
andy
what is classed as a point
A
accordfire
Generic term, my friend - light fitting, socket, switch, fcu, you name it.
Easy way of building up labour timing on a quote - so you know it takes you say half an hour a light fitting, then a point is half an hour - you have ten light fittings, you know that's roughly five hours of labour. Etc.
- Reaction score
- 77
accord, sounds like you generate alot of paperwork, which is no bad thing. You and your customer know exactly where you are at the start. I'd be interested to know if you use any specialized software for all this? I myself use a combination of spreadsheets and word documents, but it can become very clunky.
L
lloyd1980
Hi guys.
I am in the middle of pricing something similar - talk about a lot of work!!
8 bedroom guest house, all with en-suite, owners flat, kitchen, utility, heating, huge breakfast/dining room. reception area, 2 patios with lighting/heating. car park lighting, up lighting for building and trees front and rear with outside sockets, new 3 phase supply, 3 zone fire alarm and emergency lighting,all cat5e data points and TV points
am designing the installation before I can price it.
I am going to price it per point, have split the installation up and intend to have a mini C/U per bedroom and owners flat, and a CU in middle floor corridor and upper reception corridor system - allowing local isolation without affecting too much else, also saving looong cable runs back to DB.
Client is buying materials,flat plate nickel everywhere, chandeliers etc wants a fixed price on labour only,
Have printed a list of exactly what, in each room he has asked me to fit
(and therefore price for) which he will need to agree.
He has agreed to stage payments on the labour and a drawn up contract will be signed by both parties before commencing work.
I have also stipulated that any delay , addition, variation, or hold up from the initial agreed spec, which creates extra time being added onto the overall priced installation time, is chargeable at my normal hourly rate.
I have also stipulated I accept no responsibility for damaged/ missing materials if he gets them delivered in bulk and dumped on site with all the other trades that will be there, I have also made clear that as he is sourcing the materials then his guarantee is with the wholesaler on the purchased items and any snags where fittings etc fail, my time is chargeable when attending to these.
.....phew!!!
I think I have covered all my bases so far, can anyone think of anything else I need to consider.
I am getting my price to him this week, the work starts in march time.
On another note, Ill prob need a couple of sparks as labour so if any of you are interested then let me know ( all dependant on me winning it of course!!)
wish me luck :s !!
I am in the middle of pricing something similar - talk about a lot of work!!
8 bedroom guest house, all with en-suite, owners flat, kitchen, utility, heating, huge breakfast/dining room. reception area, 2 patios with lighting/heating. car park lighting, up lighting for building and trees front and rear with outside sockets, new 3 phase supply, 3 zone fire alarm and emergency lighting,all cat5e data points and TV points
am designing the installation before I can price it.
I am going to price it per point, have split the installation up and intend to have a mini C/U per bedroom and owners flat, and a CU in middle floor corridor and upper reception corridor system - allowing local isolation without affecting too much else, also saving looong cable runs back to DB.
Client is buying materials,flat plate nickel everywhere, chandeliers etc wants a fixed price on labour only,
Have printed a list of exactly what, in each room he has asked me to fit
(and therefore price for) which he will need to agree.
He has agreed to stage payments on the labour and a drawn up contract will be signed by both parties before commencing work.
I have also stipulated that any delay , addition, variation, or hold up from the initial agreed spec, which creates extra time being added onto the overall priced installation time, is chargeable at my normal hourly rate.
I have also stipulated I accept no responsibility for damaged/ missing materials if he gets them delivered in bulk and dumped on site with all the other trades that will be there, I have also made clear that as he is sourcing the materials then his guarantee is with the wholesaler on the purchased items and any snags where fittings etc fail, my time is chargeable when attending to these.
.....phew!!!
I think I have covered all my bases so far, can anyone think of anything else I need to consider.
I am getting my price to him this week, the work starts in march time.
On another note, Ill prob need a couple of sparks as labour so if any of you are interested then let me know ( all dependant on me winning it of course!!)
wish me luck :s !!
Last edited:
L
lloyd1980
inbox sorted - thanks
Last edited by a moderator:
D
DurhamSparky
hey lloyd you had any run ins with plasterers lately!!
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