help please reduced output on hot days

[billybee]

so if its + or - 2% at 45'c should i expect to lose 10% thata 20x 0.53% ish over that temp range.

 

[billybee]

i carnt really call them losses just dont get above 2450w on hot days and because its already arrange to change the inverter, ive got my fingers crossed that its the panels kicking to much amp out for the inverter and by uping the inverter that it also ups the reduced peak output by the same %. i will post when i get some results either way. if nothing changes then its back to asun for an expernation of them on why ther claiming the temps we've had shouldnt effect the peak out put. as they told me there tested and used in italy with no reported power drops and its hotter there than here.

 

[sambotc]

They obviously know something that everybody else doesn't then, and bearing in mind they have temperature coefficients printed on their spec sheet, i'd say they are not telling the truth.

 

[FB.]

Today was a great day to see the temperature phenomenon.
It was about 20'C, no cooling benefit of any breeze and a mixture of sunny spells and cloud.

There were cloudy spells with generation being just a trickle, and when the sun came out power soared to 3.5kW. Then gradually the power output declined (as the panels got hotter) and settled around 3.0kW. Then a cloud would block the sun again, power would drop to 700W again, the panels cooled, the sun came out again and the power jumped back up to 3.5kW.

So I reckon that I was seeing a 15% loss of power output due to temperature.

The power-derating temperature coefficient of my panels is 0.43% per degree Celsius. So a rise of 35 degrees in panel temperature would explain the 15% drop in power output.

With ambient temperature around 20'C, the panels would appear to have been reaching 55'C after being in strong direct sun for many minutes.

 

[billybee]

well i agree there, the only other thing is on cold days i offtern get the same diffrence out of the last 21 days from 4 to 10kw production ive been out performed on 17 days by upto 23% but in saying that i have beaten him 4 times so even though were 10km apart weather could play some part may be cloudy here and raining there. thanks for the help anyway

 

[billybee]

i'm not an expert like the members on here, but today here in durham has been simler, i dont no what size system you have so dont know if your 3.5 is the size off your system but mine 3.0kw and both the inverter and panel have maxed on occasion at 109% output and today i never got above 80% peak. i do fully understand the maths involved (i did ask for a-sun panels but am i little disappointed that this coefficent was not expained as a 0.09 diffrence per degree is a lot over 30 degrees) but its not enough for the overall diffrence. there has to be more than just that. and the biggest diffrence on the two systems is the size of the inverter.

sorry and he's also running a 4kw inverter with 3.3kws of panels witch i'm being advised against. lol

 

[billybee]

Today was a great day to see the temperature phenomenon.
It was about 20'C, no cooling benefit of any breeze and a mixture of sunny spells and cloud.

There were cloudy spells with generation being just a trickle, and when the sun came out power soared to 3.5kW. Then gradually the power output declined (as the panels got hotter) and settled around 3.0kW. Then a cloud would block the sun again, power would drop to 700W again, the panels cooled, the sun came out again and the power jumped back up to 3.5kW.

So I reckon that I was seeing a 15% loss of power output due to temperature.

The power-derating temperature coefficient of my panels is 0.43% per degree Celsius. So a rise of 35 degrees in panel temperature would explain the 15% drop in power output.

With ambient temperature around 20'C, the panels would appear to have been reaching 55'C after being in strong direct sun for many minutes.

the heat thing with what youve said above i can understand and agree with, cool down power up heat up power goes down and if that was happerning and mine was going up after some clould great, but mine never go back past the same output once it hits 2450 thats is best for that day (hot days) half an hour clould and it will drop but within minutes of clould clearing back to 2450 again and thats it.

 

[FB.]

well i agree there, the only other thing is on cold days i offtern get the same diffrence out of the last 21 days from 4 to 10kw production ive been out performed on 17 days by upto 23% but in saying that i have beaten him 4 times so even though were 10km apart weather could play some part may be cloudy here and raining there. thanks for the help anyway

Does your roof have the exact same slope, and the exact same facing?

My system is 3.75kWp (Kinve KV250-60M) and 3.6 inverter (Power One Aurora PVI3600 indoor model - in a cool downstairs utility room).
However, the 3.5kW output dropping (-15%) to 3.0kW as the panels got hot in strong sun is the main point I was making. The actual size of the system wasn't so important as the percentage drop-off in generation as the panels got hot.
System faces East-South-East on an unshaded 40-degree pitched roof.
Readings showing the above fluctuations and temperature degradation were around 10am-12noon.

 

[FB.]

the heat thing with what youve said above i can understand and agree with, cool down power up heat up power goes down and if that was happerning and mine was going up after some clould great, but mine never go back past the same output once it hits 2450 thats is best for that day (hot days) half an hour clould and it will drop but within minutes of clould clearing back to 2450 again and thats it.

Then it sounds as if a shadow is cast across one or more of your panels, and the whole panel goes offline until much later in the day, when the sun has gone behind the panels or is much weaker.
A whole panel can be shut down with just a few cells shaded (if they happen to be just in the right places). So if you have two panels with some shaded cells, your maximum generation could be down from 3.0kW to 2.5kW.
However, although a panel can shut down with just a few cells shaded, it does depend on which cells.
I previously posted a sketch of the typical layout of bypass diodes, which I will repost here - just one cell shaded in each third of the panel will effectively take that subsection of the panel out of production:

 

[moggy1968]

or a dodgy panel?

 

[Earthstore]

or a dodgy panel?

That makes real sense, if a cell or two is over heating then it could be shutting down the panel as it warms up in bright sunlight, maybe time for a thermal imiging camera to see if there are any "hot spots".

 

[billybee]

to answer some questions
roof pitch is ni on the same possibly a degree or two diffrent. according to what he told me we facing within a degree or two the same way. its not the drop thats my concirn its that it doesnt get high enough to drop (hot days) going of the inverter size and panel i'm loosing more like 20% of my peak and going of what the inverter and panels have peaked at could be over 25%. to get a drop you need a peak.
i do get a shadow i think early morning as the top string is always lower than the bottom for an hour or so. but if its shading or faualty panels i would expect one string to be better than the other later in the day. after about 10am and for the times i get 2450 (hot days) both strings are on 8 amps and about 1200w. so if its a faulty panel there must be 2 one on each string.
i know nothing about thermal camers, i'm changing the inverter next week and if that doesnt work will have to put a thermiter on the roof to check temps. sounds possibly heat is the problem. but its the way they react.
could we be looking at vaultage from the panels. mine is about 560v (inverter) and ive noticed a system with a sunnyboy inverter has much better outputs on hot days, sunny boys 700v also the eversolar i'm compairing with can run at 680v.
thanks all

 

[moggy1968]

to answer some questions
. but if its shading or faualty panels i would expect one string to be better than the other later in the day. after about 10am and for the times i get 2450 (hot days) both strings are on 8 amps and about 1200w. so if its a faulty panel there must be 2 one on each string.
thanks all

unlikely I would say, but then,I've seen unlikely before!
The only thing that deviastes me away from temperature is the consistency of the top reading. Otherwise I would say yep, 99% sure it's temp.

 

[Gavin A]

to answer some questions
roof pitch is ni on the same possibly a degree or two diffrent. according to what he told me we facing within a degree or two the same way. its not the drop thats my concirn its that it doesnt get high enough to drop (hot days) going of the inverter size and panel i'm loosing more like 20% of my peak and going of what the inverter and panels have peaked at could be over 25%. to get a drop you need a peak.
i do get a shadow i think early morning as the top string is always lower than the bottom for an hour or so. but if its shading or faualty panels i would expect one string to be better than the other later in the day. after about 10am and for the times i get 2450 (hot days) both strings are on 8 amps and about 1200w. so if its a faulty panel there must be 2 one on each string.
i know nothing about thermal camers, i'm changing the inverter next week and if that doesnt work will have to put a thermiter on the roof to check temps. sounds possibly heat is the problem. but its the way they react.
could we be looking at vaultage from the panels. mine is about 560v (inverter) and ive noticed a system with a sunnyboy inverter has much better outputs on hot days, sunny boys 700v also the eversolar i'm compairing with can run at 680v.
thanks all

I've already explained in detail where your system is underperforming and what you can do about it.

replacing the inverter with a higher rated inverter will make it worse not better. The problem IS NOT the inverter limiting the output, it is a combination of your panels poor temperature coefficient plus the system being run in 2 strings of 6 panels that's right at the bottom of the efficiency range for the inverter, a problem that is compounded at higher temperatures as the string voltage also drops at higher temperatures.

this is not guess work, there's no magic involved in these systems, it's all in the data sheets for equipment you're using.

 

[billybee]

now this is what i think happens and i'm pritty sure that i'm going to be told i'm wrong but here goes.

the way my data is stored only gives watt ouput for previous days so till we get a mixed day i carnt conferm this 100%

my portable device gives me vin1 and vin2 for each you get vaults (pritty steady around 160 to 180) next amps which is always changing and lastly watts that changes with the amps.
now ive looked at it a lot and ive never seen it go past 8A on each vin so thats got to be its max, now yesterday it read 180v 8A and aprox 1200w on each line. that was my peak for the day. a couple of days ago on the mixed day my system peak for a short time at 3276w and i think the ampage peak would have had to of been 8. there is another reading which is larid witch seems to be the two combined.

so if on two days one hot peak of 2450 and one mixed 3276 and both peaks were pushing the same amps out heat must effect the ampage level. now i read somewhere before i got the system, of a guy who had an aurora and on hot days was having similer problems. i beleve he said it was a safety feature that cut the inverter production down when the ampage got to much.
so heres what i hope, the new inverter is bigger so when the drop happens i hope that rather than it cutting down to 2450 it will only drop to 2850 of corse this will only happen if its the inverter ampage and not the panels. also ive found the artical i red link below.
now my installer is being good about it, and we've agreed that if i pay the cost diffrence of the inverter and pay for the electrition he will change it. he also suggested that i put the new inverter to one string but a carnt afford it as it means scaffold again. id probably be better changing the make of inverter to an eversolar or sunny boy but thats down to cost and loosing my little potable monitor (wasnt cheep)

thanks all

info re Power-One Aurora grid inverter « Alternative Technology Assn Forums

 

[Gavin A]

the ampage you refer to is the peak ampage rating of the panels.

I'm banging my head off a brick wall here though, so I'm out of this thread, you can choose to follow my advice or just guess yourself.

 

[SibertSolar]

Put all the panels on 1 string and see what the difference is in performance.....As Gavin has suggested, if the Vmpp of the string falls below the min MPPT voltage of the inverter input then the inverter's power handling and efficiency will be impacted. It wont stop working but it will not operate at an optimum. Worth putting all panels on one string/input to verify that?.....

If that doesn't make a difference then we're back to looking at potential defect cells and/or diodes. Or you could just go ahead and change the inverter but I doubt that will help.....

 

[billybee]

i'm going to email the installer about the strings and ask why it was put onto 2 rather than one. see what he says. and take it from there. i am going to change the inverter still, as at the moment i have 12 panels (due to cost) the bigger inverter will give me the option of adding 2 more panels maybe at a later date. i will post with what happens either way if only to help with feedback. i think the problem i'll get with the strings is he'll no be keen on paying for scaffold to change them to one rather than 2 but i'll await his reply.

thanks all for the help and info.

 

[FB.]

An oversized inverter will tend to not operate at its optimum, and therefore have more DC to AC conversion losses. Each size of inverter tends to be optimal for panels of about the same rating. So by adding a bigger (more expensive?) inverter, things are likely to get worse - especially on dull days when a big inverter's internal power consumption may use up most of what the panels supply to it, resulting in little or nothing coming out as AC power.
Technically, if you add panels at a later date, you're supposed to get whatver FiT is being paid at the time, on a pro-rata basis. Your total installed capacity and declared net capacity will also no longer match your MCS certificate and not be what was originally approved by the DNO and your FiT provider - and I hear that some DNO's are looking to further reduce what is allowed to be installed on a property without consulting them.

 

[sambotc]

billybee, I strongly suggest you listen to the advise of the above posters, they do this day in day out and know their stuff. With all due respect you seem to have convinced yourself you know what the problem is but it doesn't make much sense.

You've been given the advise, it's up to you whether or not you take it on board, but arguing the facts with very credible installers and designers is not going to do you any favours, and your installers are obviously not aware of the facts that have been outlined in the above.

I'm off to un subscribe as its clogging up my inbox!

 

[billybee]

thanks for the help, and sorry if you think i was arguing with the facts, i fully agree that i'm looseing that against the system at least 2% due to heat factors and my panels being a bit naff lol. and also some more looses due to 2 strings. i already had relized that an over sized inverter could cost me some performance and am made to fell worse now knowing i'm comparing against a system with an oversized inverter (700w) so i do realise the only way of improving is changing to 1 string (dont no how much diffrence) and blowing my panels up and getting better ones lol. so i have taken all your advice and am contacting my installer now to discuse the options. and trying to add more panels at a later date is also a no go going of the advice. so thanks you have all beeen very helpful and informative.

 

[Simpsod1]

Hi Billybee

I have a fairly similar system to you - Powerone PVI3000out and 13 250w suntech panels in 2 strings

Have you noted the temp reading on the inverter when the power drops??

I have noted that as soon as the inverter temp reaches circa 54c the output power drops from 3300w to 2450w - the inverter display will also change from Tinv to TBoost.

Hope this Helps

Dave

thanks for the help, and sorry if you think i was arguing with the facts, i fully agree that i'm looseing that against the system at least 2% due to heat factors and my panels being a bit naff lol. and also some more looses due to 2 strings. i already had relized that an over sized inverter could cost me some performance and am made to fell worse now knowing i'm comparing against a system with an oversized inverter (700w) so i do realise the only way of improving is changing to 1 string (dont no how much diffrence) and blowing my panels up and getting better ones lol. so i have taken all your advice and am contacting my installer now to discuse the options. and trying to add more panels at a later date is also a no go going of the advice. so thanks you have all beeen very helpful and informative.

 

[billybee]

massive massive help so is the 54c on the inverter the temp of the panels. is that what its telling you.

ive also relooked at the systems ive compaired with and on closer looking everyone one here was spot on with the heat situation as all the 4 system ar droping down to 85% of the max panel output on hot days weather the inverter is over or undersized. mines a bit worse at about 82%.

Hi Billybee

I have a fairly similar system to you - Powerone PVI3000out and 13 250w suntech panels in 2 strings

Have you noted the temp reading on the inverter when the power drops??

I have noted that as soon as the inverter temp reaches circa 54c the output power drops from 3300w to 2450w - the inverter display will also change from Tinv to TBoost.

Hope this Helps

Dave

 

[FB.]

Are you able to post-up the voltage (and ampage and wattage) of each string of panels?
If you have a dud panel, or a dud section of a panel, it ought to show up in the voltage.

For example, I have two arrays and the data a few minutes ago (cloudy) was:


Array 1:
8 panels, 232 Volts (8 x 29.0V per panel)
2.5 Amps

Array 2:
7 panels, 201 Volts (7 x 28.7V per panel)
2.5 Amps

If array 2 had a dud panel, it'd be running at 170-175 Volts (6panels x 29V) and obvious that there was a problem.

 

[billybee]

6 panels 165.1 (27.5)

6 panels 162.6 (77)

raing heavy, but its heat no heat and poor panels in heat. i will be keeping the inverter i have and looking at the string situation i think.

 

[Simpsod1]

P-out : Measured instant output power
The second line of the display shows the higher of two temperatures:T-inv: inverter heatsink temperature​

T-boost: heatsink temperature

massive massive help so is the 54c on the inverter the temp of the panels. is that what its telling you.

ive also relooked at the systems ive compaired with and on closer looking everyone one here was spot on with the heat situation as all the 4 system ar droping down to 85% of the max panel output on hot days weather the inverter is over or undersized. mines a bit worse at about 82%.

 

[billybee]

what is this t-vin and t-boost and what does it mean, could it be the inverter telling you panels are to hot or is it the iverter telling us its to hot. obvisally we both experance the same problem on hot days and its when t-boost kicks in.

 

[FB.]

6 panels 165.1 (27.5)

6 panels 162.6 (77)

raing heavy, but its heat no heat and poor panels in heat. i will be keeping the inverter i have and looking at the string situation i think.

So the voltage of each of the panels is very close between the two strings (27.5 v 27.1V).

The panels are operating close enough to their maximum power voltage (which varies with the weather conditions, but is in the high-20's).

I do note, though, that the Aurora 3000 string tool suggests that strings of 7 or 8 panels would be most optimal (probably due to string voltage).
Link here:
Power-One String Tool

Certainly the data sheets for the PVI-3600 which I have, says that it increasingly loses efficiency the further the string voltage is below 200V or above 530V. Generally speaking, below 200Volt, for the PVI-3600, a 10V drop equates to a 5% loss of inverter efficiency.
So you can see that my 7-string only just avoids dropping into the area where the voltage is a bit low and therefore less efficient.

It may be, therefore, that the modern trend for a few big panels is making problems with optimum voltage, or a greater effect on the whole string if one panel is shaded - for example 15x200W with one shaded panel is 6.7% loss of performance per shaded panel, but 12x250W is 8.3% loss of performance per shaded panel.
15x200W panels would run around 450Volts (or 210-240V if in two strings), whereas 12x250W panels would run around 360Volts as one string (or 180Volts if split into two strings and possibly failing to meet the optimum input voltage).

 

[FB.]

So basically you may be underperforming other systems because your panel strings are running below the optimum input voltage for your inverter, whereas other systems may be better matched.
In fairness, though, it isn't always possible to perfectly optimise due to each installation being unique and using the parts available at the time.

 

[billybee]

thanks for that its going into the hands of power one to look at.

thanks all

 

[ktech]

We had quite a few customers ask about the performance on higher temperature days and put an article together to explain: Solar and higher temperatures

 

[billybee]

very helpful info indeed, and well explaned. if i had known this info i would have probabley pushed me towards a diffrent panel. and there no dobt that heat on the panels are playing a big part in my reduced peaks on hot days. but as has been explaned also the two strings doesnt help and probably as someone said earlyer the t-boost thing that cuts the inverter down may be adding to the looses, but its in the hands of power one to look at this issue more. the info on here has been a big help and i hope future panel buyers can see your info so there more ready for this sinario as it was a bit of a shock.

 

[Gavin A]

what is this t-vin and t-boost and what does it mean, could it be the inverter telling you panels are to hot or is it the iverter telling us its to hot. obvisally we both experance the same problem on hot days and its when t-boost kicks in.

those are the temperatures at the heat sink on the inverter. I believe they need to be showing 70 degrees before derating occurs

automatic power limitation control based on internal temperature monitoring to avoid overheating (heat sink temperature ≤70°C [158°F]).

One point on this though is that if the efficiency is 3-4% lower than peak, then this means there is 3-4% more power being converted to heat, which means that at 3000W input, there's an extra 100W or so of heat being generated in the inverter, which does make it far more likely than usual that the inverter will overheat and derate because of it.

so running it in single string mode could also resolve this issue if it is an issue here.

 

[Gary K]

I believe the power 1 inverters use heatsinks and cooling fins rather than an internal fan so it would do no harm to get a large fan blowing on the inverter from early before it gets warm so to limit the heat build up. It may help. The inverter is not mounted in an enclosed space or warm loft is it?

 

[Gavin A]

I believe the power 1 inverters use heatsinks and cooling fins rather than an internal fan so it would do no harm to get a large fan blowing on the inverter from early before it gets warm so to limit the heat build up. It may help. The inverter is not mounted in an enclosed space or warm loft is it?

they have internal fans inside the sealed unit to blow the warm air onto the heat sink / away from the components, but not external fans to blow air over the heat fins.

An external fan in the wrong position could even make things worse by preventing the convection air circulation (the chimney effect) from working properly and drawing air across the heat fins if it was positioned badly.

If the internal temperature is 54, then I don't see that this is going to be causing it to derate, unless Power-One are giving out duff information, though it does seem warmer than would be ideal for the lifespan of the components.

 

[billybee]

I believe the power 1 inverters use heatsinks and cooling fins rather than an internal fan so it would do no harm to get a large fan blowing on the inverter from early before it gets warm so to limit the heat build up. It may help. The inverter is not mounted in an enclosed space or warm loft is it?

yes its mointed in a loft bedroom, i didnt want it there as one its my daughters bedroom and two she has a pet ferret and we learned quickly that it wouldnt leave it a lone, so i had to build a ventilate box round it as well. i did bring up the t-boost issue with power one and there engernier said it wouldnt get hot enough to derate but i noticed the t-boost and temp once in may when looking at the display when it was down on peak.

this is the earlyer post i got. and it does sound the same as im getting but could be heat on panels same as mine.

Hi Billybee

I have a fairly similar system to you - Powerone PVI3000out and 13 250w suntech panels in 2 strings (these have a slightly better Temperature Coefficient than a-sun)

Have you noted the temp reading on the inverter when the power drops??

I have noted that as soon as the inverter temp reaches circa 54c the output power drops from 3300w to 2450w - the inverter display will also change from Tinv to TBoost.

Hope this Helps

Dave


i dont no why it changes from tinv to tboost at 54' and the system power drops the online manual only gives gerneral infor on it. i do think after the advice on here that even with out this at some stage on a hot day my powers going to fall by upto 20% but wonder if this is causeing reductions to happen earlyer than the panels need be. but hopefully power one will get back to me and explane more or finding a solution. the main question i had for them was if the 3.0 fell to 2450 because of this does that mean the 3600 would fall to around 2900 when the same affect happens. sadly no answer on this. i am going to get a thomitor on my roof and the next hot day i will see how hot the roof is when i stick at 2400w.


thanks again all

​

 

[stavtoon]

Hello Billybee its my system you are comparing with and i like yourself in the early weeks of being up and running got a bit paranoid looking at other systems comparing them with mine.But later just let it get on with producing power for my household and are now enjoying EDF sending money to my bank lol.
For the other members here is my system.hilltopsolar 3.290kW | Monthly

 

[billybee]

Hello Billybee its my system you are comparing with and i like yourself in the early weeks of being up and running got a bit paranoid looking at other systems comparing them with mine.But later just let it get on with producing power for my household and are now enjoying EDF sending money to my bank lol.
For the other members here is my system.hilltopsolar 3.290kW | Monthly

probably am being paranoid a bit. but when you pay a lot for a system you want it 100% or and thanks for the info on your system the other week. and because i'm on the lower feed in tarrifs every kw counts. it might only feel like a couple of kws 50 days a year but it will add up over 25 lol. i was going to contact you and ask what data are you going off for your targets though. thanks

 

[stavtoon]

probably am being paranoid a bit. but when you pay a lot for a system you want it 100% or and thanks for the info on your system the other week. and because i'm on the lower feed in tarrifs every kw counts. it might only feel like a couple of kws 50 days a year but it will add up over 25 lol. i was going to contact you and ask what data are you going off for your targets though. thanks

PVGIS but not the climate version as i added the estimates before i found out about it.To be honest i dont take much notice of the estimates as March was 170% but it was a very unusual March even more so up here.I know what you mean about alot of money as its the kids nest egg (THEY DONT KNOW IT YET)

 

[matt25]

ktech.......... youve probably got the best solar related website ive ever seen, awesome!