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I suspect that this is exactly the response that the DECC are after.
If it goes anywhere near 9p then you can forget a solar industry altogether, never mind 'rent a roof'.
S
Funny, as thats exactly the response i gave to someone else a day or so ago who said a similar thing to what I have just written! I completely agree with both of you on your points. The problem is, the longer it goes on, the less good it does for everyone. Its costing the tax payer, its costing people their jobs, its costing the big companies for legal cases, and come the end of it there is unlikely to be much gain to anybody?
I would love to see DECC get nailed, and for us all to come out the other side smelling of roses, but thats unlikely to be the outcome now anyway unless i'm missing something, so why bother?
It may be easy for some of you to say 'because its the principles etc' but say that to the thousands who are about too, or who have already lost their jobs in the middle of one of the worst recessions this country has seen for a very long time.
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I don't think this is feasible. If HM Government has indeed acted illegally, then it would be open to anyone to mount a challenge to the consultation...even if FOE/Solar Century/Home Sun walk away now. Illegality remains illegality regardless.
Can anyone confirm if DECC needs to consult if they are changing the FIT on April 1st or are they allowed to change on that date without consultation as it was always intended as a repricing point? If that is the case, I think DECC are probably trying to create a 'fog' between now and April 1st to keep the number of installations to a minimum in the knowledge that there is a fair chance they will have to pay out 43p's on these installs. There must be a strong possibility that all installs between now and April 1st will end up receiving the 43p for 25 years. I think the 'retrospective changes' threat from HM Government's barristers is just an empty threat. Chris Huhne has stated previously there will be no retro changes to FiT's (I'll try and find the link)...he'll be crucified if he backtracks on that.
Equally, if DECC does lose the appeal they could be hit hard by class actions from installers and, potentially more financially catastrophically, consumers.
Finally, when a lot of people are facing financial uncertainty with the accompanying stress and worry, I leave you with a Greg Barker tweet from today;
Twitter
(I'm manfully resisting any reference to a pansy)
He feels your pain.
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Meanwhile the solar industry suffers from depression, confusion and anxiety........
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Grounds for a personal injury claim, methinks.
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OP
sambotc
FFS just drop it and let everybody get on with it at 21p. It's gone past the point of doing any good other than saying 'we were right and DECC are wrong'
Financially it is of little or no benefit to even the big companies involved, HomeSun etc as by the time its all been resolved, april will be so close, there won't be enough time to mobilise work forces to make the most of a higher tariff.
Most of this is a browny point operation to show the investors in such big companies (banks and similar) that they are fighting their corner, and not letting the investments go down the pan. This no longer has anything to do with 'the solar industry' it is purely for self gain.
After all of that, DECC will not stand down from this without the last laugh, and I have seen figures of as little as 9p floating around, which will be catastrophic for even the big rent a roof companies.
Just drop the case, take it on the chin and try and hope DECC can at least learn off this all, and try and work with us, otherwise come April we will most definitely be working against each other, if we are even working at all!
Financially it is of little or no benefit to even the big companies involved, HomeSun etc as by the time its all been resolved, april will be so close, there won't be enough time to mobilise work forces to make the most of a higher tariff.
Most of this is a browny point operation to show the investors in such big companies (banks and similar) that they are fighting their corner, and not letting the investments go down the pan. This no longer has anything to do with 'the solar industry' it is purely for self gain.
After all of that, DECC will not stand down from this without the last laugh, and I have seen figures of as little as 9p floating around, which will be catastrophic for even the big rent a roof companies.
Just drop the case, take it on the chin and try and hope DECC can at least learn off this all, and try and work with us, otherwise come April we will most definitely be working against each other, if we are even working at all!
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OP
TedM
OP
Noddy67
"Just drop the case, take it on the chin and try and hope DECC can at least learn off this all"... I think they'd learn they can do what they like, when they like. There approach was entirely wrong, so I can't really see why the industry should roll over and take it.
Yes 21p could work but who says the next time the Big Six decide, or the rabid Daily Mail article appears, they won't drop it to 9p then at a moments notice. Or retrospectively change the 43p.
I think what they'll 'learn' from this is that if you f*ck about with peoples livelihoods they should expect a fight.
Yes this is frustrating but I'm sure that's a part of their plan to wear people down. It doesn't mean it's right.
As someone said earlier in the string, going from carbon to green wasn't going to be cheap, and if the @G don't sort themselves out all the 43p incentives will be for nothing as they decimate the industry.
Yes 21p could work but who says the next time the Big Six decide, or the rabid Daily Mail article appears, they won't drop it to 9p then at a moments notice. Or retrospectively change the 43p.
I think what they'll 'learn' from this is that if you f*ck about with peoples livelihoods they should expect a fight.
Yes this is frustrating but I'm sure that's a part of their plan to wear people down. It doesn't mean it's right.
As someone said earlier in the string, going from carbon to green wasn't going to be cheap, and if the @G don't sort themselves out all the 43p incentives will be for nothing as they decimate the industry.
- Reaction score
- 723
I suspect that this is exactly the response that the DECC are after.
- Reaction score
- 723
If it goes anywhere near 9p then you can forget a solar industry altogether, never mind 'rent a roof'.
OP
sambotc
Funny, as thats exactly the response i gave to someone else a day or so ago who said a similar thing to what I have just written! I completely agree with both of you on your points. The problem is, the longer it goes on, the less good it does for everyone. Its costing the tax payer, its costing people their jobs, its costing the big companies for legal cases, and come the end of it there is unlikely to be much gain to anybody?
I would love to see DECC get nailed, and for us all to come out the other side smelling of roses, but thats unlikely to be the outcome now anyway unless i'm missing something, so why bother?
It may be easy for some of you to say 'because its the principles etc' but say that to the thousands who are about too, or who have already lost their jobs in the middle of one of the worst recessions this country has seen for a very long time.
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- Reaction score
- 723
I understand completely, Sambotc.
However, standing back from the fight now would be a victory for the government which is far more than just about principles. It's the thin end of the wedge (God, I sound like a Daily Mail 'source').
The result of a government victory would be:
The power for them to act irresponsibly (illegally?) again - possibly even to retrospectively cut FITs.
Complete loss of confidence in government commitment to green energy - with long reaching and devastating results. Going green won't come cheap so you had better make sure you have got consumer confidence on your side.
Lastly, but not leastly, the burning knowledge that we sat back and let them get on with it.
However, standing back from the fight now would be a victory for the government which is far more than just about principles. It's the thin end of the wedge (God, I sound like a Daily Mail 'source').
The result of a government victory would be:
The power for them to act irresponsibly (illegally?) again - possibly even to retrospectively cut FITs.
Complete loss of confidence in government commitment to green energy - with long reaching and devastating results. Going green won't come cheap so you had better make sure you have got consumer confidence on your side.
Lastly, but not leastly, the burning knowledge that we sat back and let them get on with it.
OP
sambotc
It's an awkward one, and I totally agree with you on all points. Without sounding like I am contradicting myself on my earlier post, I wouldn't suggest walking away literally. More so, strike a deal that may suppress the current uncertainty in the industry and allow the cogs to start turning again, whilst implementing further legal contracts between DECC and their involvement in such funding. As said in one of the articles linked in this topic:
"...the suggestion is deeply concerning; that banks do not believe the government will treat the FIT like a bond-like income stream it is supposed to be, and expect the government to intervene and change the FIT again in the future. This bodes very badly for the green deal and renewable heat incentive if it is true"
The fact is as we all know, DECC were too slow to react and once they did, it was with a knee-jerk reaction. There is little gain to come out of the court case directly, but policies could be put in place to stop this re-occuring, regardless of the appeal outcome. Damage has already been done on both sides, so why not strike a line under it and start working together to ensure both DECC and the solar industry as a whole get a result everyone benefits from, and start moving forward.
"...the suggestion is deeply concerning; that banks do not believe the government will treat the FIT like a bond-like income stream it is supposed to be, and expect the government to intervene and change the FIT again in the future. This bodes very badly for the green deal and renewable heat incentive if it is true"
The fact is as we all know, DECC were too slow to react and once they did, it was with a knee-jerk reaction. There is little gain to come out of the court case directly, but policies could be put in place to stop this re-occuring, regardless of the appeal outcome. Damage has already been done on both sides, so why not strike a line under it and start working together to ensure both DECC and the solar industry as a whole get a result everyone benefits from, and start moving forward.
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OP
finchy
This is all very distracting the biggest concern it the C Rating ! yes it was wrong the government did what they did but that's life. One main lesson in business is to adapt and get on with it, personally I need to earn money and live a happy life. We could argue this for months if not years in the mean time what are we supposed to do !
We didn't rip customers off or operate rent-a-roof schemes so we don't have the treasure chest to spend on legal action.
We didn't rip customers off or operate rent-a-roof schemes so we don't have the treasure chest to spend on legal action.
OP
moggy1968
absolutely. If we roll over now come April the industry is done for anyway, because the C rating will, without a shadow of doubt, kill the industry stone dead. It is a return to the system we had under the grant where it cost so much to get your home improved to qualify for the grant it wasn't worth it. How many solar installs did you see before April 2010?
Also bear in mind the court case wasn't just bought by the industry. There are QUANGOS, NGOs and charities involved as well.
Also bear in mind the court case wasn't just bought by the industry. There are QUANGOS, NGOs and charities involved as well.
OP
TMGL
I don't think this is feasible. If HM Government has indeed acted illegally, then it would be open to anyone to mount a challenge to the consultation...even if FOE/Solar Century/Home Sun walk away now. Illegality remains illegality regardless.
Can anyone confirm if DECC needs to consult if they are changing the FIT on April 1st or are they allowed to change on that date without consultation as it was always intended as a repricing point? If that is the case, I think DECC are probably trying to create a 'fog' between now and April 1st to keep the number of installations to a minimum in the knowledge that there is a fair chance they will have to pay out 43p's on these installs. There must be a strong possibility that all installs between now and April 1st will end up receiving the 43p for 25 years. I think the 'retrospective changes' threat from HM Government's barristers is just an empty threat. Chris Huhne has stated previously there will be no retro changes to FiT's (I'll try and find the link)...he'll be crucified if he backtracks on that.
Equally, if DECC does lose the appeal they could be hit hard by class actions from installers and, potentially more financially catastrophically, consumers.
Finally, when a lot of people are facing financial uncertainty with the accompanying stress and worry, I leave you with a Greg Barker tweet from today;
(I'm manfully resisting any reference to a pansy)
He feels your pain.
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OP
moggy1968
I also think it's a delaying tactic.
He really does have a face you feel the need to slap!!
He really does have a face you feel the need to slap!!
OP
sambotc
Yes Greg Barker is definitely a pansy
OP
Somecamel
We've been told all week that they would decide in the morning if they would give DECC permission to appeal and if allowed they would hear the case in the afternoon.
How has it taken a whole day to discuss as to whether or not to allow them to appeal!! This is a farce.
Really sad to see some of other companies I've met on twitter laying off staff, in fact a larger company near to me laid off 16 people this week.
Decisions need to be made now as to whether I bother continuing in this industry- The way we have been treated is appalling.
How has it taken a whole day to discuss as to whether or not to allow them to appeal!! This is a farce.
Really sad to see some of other companies I've met on twitter laying off staff, in fact a larger company near to me laid off 16 people this week.
Decisions need to be made now as to whether I bother continuing in this industry- The way we have been treated is appalling.
OP
sambotc
Without a doubt a delay tactic, which makes me wonder why the decision wasn't made today even though we were all told there would be?
The EPC was mentioned during the consultation, but as they still haven't announced the results of the consultation it is presumption as to whether or not this will be included in the April change as far as I know?
The EPC was mentioned during the consultation, but as they still haven't announced the results of the consultation it is presumption as to whether or not this will be included in the April change as far as I know?
OP
TedM
Someone made a great comment on Twitter - that the judges were delaying while waiting for a psychiatric report on Barker before passing judgement.
OP
FB.
Meanwhile the solar industry suffers from depression, confusion and anxiety........
OP
FB.
Grounds for a personal injury claim, methinks.
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