Loop in at ceiling rose or switch?

S

sivoodoo

Which method would you think uses the least amont of cable, looping in at the ceiling rose or at the switch?

Regards

Si.
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
VoltzElectrical said:
View attachment 8133

sorry you'll have to tilt your poor heads but here is the image from the AM2 notes showing feed to the switch for two way and inter lighting in twin and earth.

Look I'm not here to start an argument, it's already been started! All I'm saying is, that in addition to the 'solysta' range from Hager, that it is no longer just a 'do- not' from the old school boys, but a legitimate variation to traditional methods with it's own merits and need to be considered when designing lighting systems. There is nothing in the regs that says you can't have neutral at a switch, you just can't ONLY switch the neutral. There really are no other reasons that it can't be there.

And yes, i did misread a post on here that I replied hastily to so apologies for that. Must learn to read more carefully (lol, note to self!).

Thanks all.
Click to expand...


Were all guilty of doing that!! ..lol!!

Well i can't honestly see the point of that diagram, it's not showing a switch loop system, it just shows the going to the first switch!! Maybe for ease and clarity of the diagram? Not sure why they brought the sw/line running back thru the other switch boxes either!! lol!!
And this you say, is drawn up by the IET?? Dear God!!! lol!!!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
to be honest my sentiments were as your own when I saw it. But you don't argue when they're the ones taking the money off you to assess you do you? I only posted this in answer to the wider debate, most fueled recently by a heated thread (was it even closed?) about neutrals at switches. This is the score, I'm a young entry to the profession, educated to degree level (not in engineering) but interested in intelligent debate. I don't make the rules. I came into the game being shown the feed to the switch method and have seen it signed off time and again. Only in time gained with other sparks to come up against this resistance to the first practice I was shown. now, years later, I've seen all sorts of methods, and I've done the 17th. Having recently read threads on this contentious topic and sat my AM2, and reading the electricians monthly publications I thought I would add (the business') two-penneth worth in the hope that clever old boys would see past the old accepted ways and embrace the new ways based on sound reason.

Regards.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
VoltzElectrical said:
to be honest my sentiments were as your own when I saw it. But you don't argue when they're the ones taking the money off you to assess you do you? I only posted this in answer to the wider debate, most fueled recently by a heated thread (was it even closed?) about neutrals at switches. This is the score, I'm a young entry to the profession, educated to degree level (not in engineering) but interested in intelligent debate. I don't make the rules. I came into the game being shown the feed to the switch method and have seen it signed off time and again. Only in time gained with other sparks to come up against this resistance to the first practice I was shown. now, years later, I've seen all sorts of methods, and I've done the 17th. Having recently read threads on this contentious topic and sat my AM2, and reading the electricians monthly publications I thought I would add (the business') two-penneth worth in the hope that clever old boys would see past the old accepted ways and embrace the new ways based on sound reason.

Regards.
Click to expand...

I'm not having a pop at you Voltz, as i have stated many times before, i have no problem taking a neutral to the switch, but if and only if there is a need for that neutral to be there. I have never seen any need for looping thru switches, i've seen plenty of instances where it has been, and those back boxes were always Full of unnecessary joints/connectors, especially when it wasn't just a straightforward 1 way/1gang switch.

So no thank you, you younger sparks can do whatever you want to do as far as looping thru switches, I for one will not, it has been and will continue to be a bad practice in my book.
As i said before i've never seen anything official endorsing this method, i've also never seen any publication of any merit showing or endorsing switch looping either. Best i think to agree to disagree on this one.... lol!!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
cheers then '54. Sometimes, the 'agree to disagree is the best approach and I salute your steadfast approach. Im sure I would learn a lot from you on a job (seriously now, no tongue in cheek). It's a diverse world out there and as long as we're not working dangerously then there is no harm done accepting different working practices. The only harm done is when people can't accept (for no good reason i.e. a regulatory stipulation) that other working practices exist and stick dogmatically to their own ways when other ways could be better and won't open their minds to learning from other people.

Your contributions are thoughtful, respectful, and are borne in mind. i may need you sometime for further enlightenment.

Until then, goodnight and godbless.

regards.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
D Skelton said:
I would say that they are mere examples or diagrams, not endorsements.

For the record, I don't loop at switches, I'm just playing devils advocate.
Click to expand...

Your probably right, but at least they never use (as far as i have seen) switch looping in their examples!! lol!! Which could in a weird way, be seen as a form of endorsing a particular method over another. ...lol!!!!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
sivoodoo said:
"There goes yet another nail into the coffin of our industry!! "

Not really.

Its safer, fact.

Most electrocutions occur when a DIYer switches off the switch and removes his ceiling rose believing it is dead "but I switched it off!" he says. Zap.

Its so much more logical to have the neutral at the switch. Turn of the switch and the light is dead, unless of course the missus comes in a switches it back on.

I think my first question is a bit daft anyway. It would all depend on the circuit arangements, I was just wondering and thought there may be a magical equation :)

Regards

Si
Click to expand...

Just go's to show that they are not competant to do electrical work.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
51 entries - wow.

Either way, IMHO, is appropriate - it generally depends on the design of the house, circuit, etc

Personally I perfer hiding JB's under yards of insulation material along with GU10 down lights, omitting identifying the switch cables properly, ignoring IP rating rules in bathrooms, etc, etc.


JOKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I genuinly can't see the advantage of Looping at the rose instead of the switch. Looping at the rose mean's you're spending more time working overhead and at a difficult angle which nobody like's doing.

Looping at the switch is miles better IMHO, if you've got a fault its at a comfortable height and if you ever have to add an outside light just a single cable chase up above the switch and you're there. You don't have to worry about get multiple cables to the light. Also, how many times in a loft are the door's relativly close to the loft hatch? Switche's are generally next to the door. Mean's you only have to worry about getting one cable out to the centre of each room which can be a complete pain in a small loft when you have to get two cable's out to the rose and it save's time, you're in the loft shorter because everything is close to the entry hatch. Started rambling at the end but it makes sense to me lol.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I loop in at either switch or fitting, all depends on what is easier for the type of lights that are being installed. When downlights or doing outside lights are installed I always loop in at the switch.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Engineer54 said:
What electronic devices, and would you need a neutral at every switch in the installation?? I think not to be honest!! I don't have anything against having a neutral at the switch position, but ONLY when a neutral is needed. I would never and have never looped through switches as a matter of course. To-date, i have never seen any official body either showing wiring diagrams or describing switch looped lighting circuits or in any other way endorsing such a wiring scheme.
Click to expand...

If you take that line Eng54 lighting using T/E cable would be impossible other than using joint boxes. Neutrals at switches not allowed because they are not required?...Well permanant lives are not required at a light,so presumably you do not approve of looping in at lights either?...which leaves only the JB method.

The fact is neutrals used to be frowned on at switches....but nobody has ever been able to give a reason why. For that reason common sense has prevailed and neutrals at switches are just as valid as any other method.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
D Skelton said:
Yeah, always accesible through the first downlight hole.
Click to expand...
Unlike this bloody house we have been goin to recently.....believe me there were joint boxes in places you would not have thought possible.....we ended up virtually rewiring the gaf and all the client thought was needed origionally was a new ring for the kitchen....the further into the job we got ...the more JBs we found and they just kept on coming....and coming....and coming....at least 20-25 at last count......and all in inaccessible places too....didn`t comply with owt ...that un...........
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
If the manufacturers made light fittings and there connections big enough to get cables into then it would be at the rose , when doing wall lights if you put n the feeds and switch wires to the fittings then there is a very high possability of a screw through a cable due to the size of the fixing brackets etc it is in this scenario where i will use switch feed, i dont like doing it but i do , when the whole installation is switch feed and you need to add another light then you have a problem identifying which is the live no always easy to do with a volt stick as they are unreliable and will light if there is induced voltage , i have had to do it a few time where the installation is switch feed so much easier with rose feeds , so ceiling rose to me ,as for the question in hand to use less cable would be ceiling feed as youll only have one drop to the light switch not 3 so less cable will be used ,for thiose intrestsed the only recognised maintainance free JB of connection will be marked MF just for the info that
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
wirepuller said:
If you take that line Eng54 lighting using T/E cable would be impossible other than using joint boxes. Neutrals at switches not allowed because they are not required?...Well permanant lives are not required at a light,so presumably you do not approve of looping in at lights either?...which leaves only the JB method.

The fact is neutrals used to be frowned on at switches....but nobody has ever been able to give a reason why. For that reason common sense has prevailed and neutrals at switches are just as valid as any other method.
Click to expand...

Absolute rubbish!! And who said anything about neutrals not being allowed at switches? Your making things up as you go along. As for commonsense, who the hell wants to open up a switch plate to find it full of cables bunched up with connectors galore?? If it meant keeping unwanted and certainly unneeded cables out of switch back boxes then your right, i'd certainly plumb for using modern day types of JB's over looping in switch boxes. Can't see how you could get around wiring a multiple down-lighter installation without the use of JB's anyway, no matter what looping method you used....

Let's get this straight, it's the looping thru switches that i have a problem with, NOT having a neutral connection at the switch, when it's Needed...
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
you can even wire 2 way switching using a 3 core switch to switch via the 3 plate and just break into the switched live there (at the 3 plate)
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
And...shunt the live feed across at the switches (2 gang) and bring a 2 core back to the 3 plate where you would use a connector block...for wall lights.........
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Engineer54 said:
Absolute rubbish!! And who said anything about neutrals not being allowed at switches? Your making things up as you go along. As for commonsense, who the hell wants to open up a switch plate to find it full of cables bunched up with connectors galore?? If you loop through a switch you will have one connector for the neutrals per circuit. If it meant keeping unwanted and certainly unneeded cables out of switch back boxes then your right, i'd certainly plumb for using modern day types of JB's over looping in switch boxes. Can't see how you could get around wiring a multiple down-lighter installation without the use of JB's anyway, no matter what looping method you used......Take the feed through the switch and loop to each light...two or possibly three cables at the switch and two maximum at each light

Let's get this straight, it's the looping thru switches that i have a problem with, NOT having a neutral connection at the switch, when it's Needed...And you have never given a satisfactory reason why,other than the wad of wires you seem to think is inevitable,but if you work it out,is actually not.
Click to expand...
.......

E54...I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and considerable useful input into this forum...but on this I am afraid it is you talking rubbish,not me.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0 Downvote
Personally, I think you both have very valid points. I guess its as others have stated in that it all depends on the situation. Mind you, not that I have any experience of doing it but I'd imagine clipping three cables into every switch chase instead of one could become very tedious.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
D Skelton said:
Personally, I think you both have very valid points. I guess its as others have stated in that it all depends on the situation. Mind you, not that I have any experience of doing it but I'd imagine clipping three cables into every switch chase instead of one could become very tedious.
Click to expand...
Yep...it isn`t just about whats going on behind the switch front......its getting the cables there (and back) n all in any semblance of order............
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
So ....no containment at the down-lighters for the building wire loops, ...really, ...OK , lol!!!

At a single 1 way one gang maybe, but that's not always the case is it, especially in hallways/porches etc!! The last thread on this subject someone actually posted a photo of a switch looped switch, it looked as if you would need to force the dammed switch plate back into the box. So not my imagination at all!!

What you may call a satisfactory answer, is not necessarily anyone else's! I think i've made my position just about as clear as i can, if you don't agree that's fine too. I'm not telling you how to wire anything, you've been in this game long enough to decide that for yourself.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Engineer54 said:
So ....no containment at the down-lighters for the building wire loops, ...really, ...OK , lol!!!

At a single 1 way one gang maybe, but that's not always the case is it, especially in hallways/porches etc!! The last thread on this subject someone actually posted a photo of a switch looped switch, it looked as if you would need to force the dammed switch plate back into the box. So not my imagination at all!!

What you may call a satisfactory answer, is not necessarily anyone else's! I think i've made my position just about as clear as i can, if you don't agree that's fine too. I'm not telling you how to wire anything, you've been in this game long enough to decide that for yourself.
Click to expand...
Just to add my twopenneth here eng before bedtime......we often find it can get a bit congested behind switch fronts.....so just go for a deeper box................
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
GLENNSPARK said:
Just to add my twopenneth here eng before bedtime......we often find it can get a bit congested behind switch fronts.....so just go for a deeper box................
Click to expand...

And very good advice too!! But then, ....just how often do you see electricians these days spending more time chopping out for those deeper boxes?? Not very often is it!!!!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I almost always fit a 35mm box. I've easily managed to fit 8 cables (2* feed's, 3* switch lives and 3 3core's) into a single 35mm backbox no trouble, dress it in all neatly and it will push in like a dream
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Lucas said:
I almost always fit a 35mm box. I've easily managed to fit 8 cables (2* feed's, 3* switch lives and 3 3core's) into a single 35mm backbox no trouble, dress it in all neatly and it will push in like a dream
Click to expand...
Way too much like hard work for me! How on earth do you contain 8 cables in a chased out wall? Must be a right old mission!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Engineer54 said:
So ....no containment at the down-lighters for the building wire loops, ...really, ...OK , lol!!!

At a single 1 way one gang maybe, but that's not always the case is it, especially in hallways/porches etc!! The last thread on this subject someone actually posted a photo of a switch looped switch, it looked as if you would need to force the dammed switch plate back into the box. So not my imagination at all!!

What you may call a satisfactory answer, is not necessarily anyone else's! I think i've made my position just about as clear as i can, if you don't agree that's fine too. I'm not telling you how to wire anything, you've been in this game long enough to decide that for yourself.
Click to expand...

You've lost me there E'.....maybe I'm having a blonde moment but you'll have to elaborate.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0 Downvote
Engineer54 said:
A perfect example!! I Rest my case!! lol!!!
Click to expand...

Like I said, dress it in neatly and it will fit in like a dream, take your time and it will be no trouble at all, go at it like a bull in a china shop and you will struggle dressing it back.

The switch in question was on a landing with 2 2way's for up and down, a 3core for a fan and 3 switch lines. All you have added into that switch instead of taking the feed into the rose is 3 extra cables (Feed and Fan) Still would of been 5 cables there regardless, 3 more isn't going to make to much difference. I use 1mm 3core anyway so I've got more play dressing it in. Id much rather work at switch height doing it than working above head at a pendant with aching arm's and a creaking neck!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote

Similar threads

D
2 gang 1 way light switch wiring when adding a separate light
Replies
2
Views
163
westward10
westward10
andy_baz
DIY - Looking for advice on a re-connecting a ceiling rose loop
Replies
12
Views
1K
mainline
mainline

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Green 2 Go Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses Heating 2 Go Electrician Workwear Supplier
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

Advert

YOUR Unread Posts

Daily, weekly or monthly email

Receive a daily, weekly, or monthly email containing a digest of new and recently updated threads.

Thread Information

Title
Loop in at ceiling rose or switch?
Prefix
N/A
Forum
Australia
Start date
Last reply date
Replies
88
Unsolved
--

Thread Tags

Tags Tags
aus ceiling electricians' talk loop rose switch

Advert

Thread statistics

Created
sivoodoo,
Last reply from
Dave 85,
Replies
88
Views
21,573

Advert

TrueNAS JBOD Storage Server

Tilers | UK Tiling Forum | Tilers Forums | Find a Tiler
UK Tiling Forum by Tilers Forums UK
Plumbers Forums | Plumbing Advice | Gas Forum
Outside Play
Back
Top