Loop in at ceiling rose or switch?

[sivoodoo]

Which method would you think uses the least amont of cable, looping in at the ceiling rose or at the switch?

Regards

Si.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Part P, eh? Welcome to the begining of the end of a once proud trade.

is that the best comment you can add? Step up to the plate new boy with something intelligent or....

 

[Engineer54]

View attachment 8133

sorry you'll have to tilt your poor heads but here is the image from the AM2 notes showing feed to the switch for two way and inter lighting in twin and earth.

Look I'm not here to start an argument, it's already been started! All I'm saying is, that in addition to the 'solysta' range from Hager, that it is no longer just a 'do- not' from the old school boys, but a legitimate variation to traditional methods with it's own merits and need to be considered when designing lighting systems. There is nothing in the regs that says you can't have neutral at a switch, you just can't ONLY switch the neutral. There really are no other reasons that it can't be there.

And yes, i did misread a post on here that I replied hastily to so apologies for that. Must learn to read more carefully (lol, note to self!).

Thanks all.

Were all guilty of doing that!! ..lol!!

Well i can't honestly see the point of that diagram, it's not showing a switch loop system, it just shows the going to the first switch!! Maybe for ease and clarity of the diagram? Not sure why they brought the sw/line running back thru the other switch boxes either!! lol!!
And this you say, is drawn up by the IET?? Dear God!!! lol!!!

 

[VoltzElectrical]

to be honest my sentiments were as your own when I saw it. But you don't argue when they're the ones taking the money off you to assess you do you? I only posted this in answer to the wider debate, most fueled recently by a heated thread (was it even closed?) about neutrals at switches. This is the score, I'm a young entry to the profession, educated to degree level (not in engineering) but interested in intelligent debate. I don't make the rules. I came into the game being shown the feed to the switch method and have seen it signed off time and again. Only in time gained with other sparks to come up against this resistance to the first practice I was shown. now, years later, I've seen all sorts of methods, and I've done the 17th. Having recently read threads on this contentious topic and sat my AM2, and reading the electricians monthly publications I thought I would add (the business') two-penneth worth in the hope that clever old boys would see past the old accepted ways and embrace the new ways based on sound reason.

Regards.

 

[Engineer54]

to be honest my sentiments were as your own when I saw it. But you don't argue when they're the ones taking the money off you to assess you do you? I only posted this in answer to the wider debate, most fueled recently by a heated thread (was it even closed?) about neutrals at switches. This is the score, I'm a young entry to the profession, educated to degree level (not in engineering) but interested in intelligent debate. I don't make the rules. I came into the game being shown the feed to the switch method and have seen it signed off time and again. Only in time gained with other sparks to come up against this resistance to the first practice I was shown. now, years later, I've seen all sorts of methods, and I've done the 17th. Having recently read threads on this contentious topic and sat my AM2, and reading the electricians monthly publications I thought I would add (the business') two-penneth worth in the hope that clever old boys would see past the old accepted ways and embrace the new ways based on sound reason.

Regards.

I'm not having a pop at you Voltz, as i have stated many times before, i have no problem taking a neutral to the switch, but if and only if there is a need for that neutral to be there. I have never seen any need for looping thru switches, i've seen plenty of instances where it has been, and those back boxes were always Full of unnecessary joints/connectors, especially when it wasn't just a straightforward 1 way/1gang switch.

So no thank you, you younger sparks can do whatever you want to do as far as looping thru switches, I for one will not, it has been and will continue to be a bad practice in my book.
As i said before i've never seen anything official endorsing this method, i've also never seen any publication of any merit showing or endorsing switch looping either. Best i think to agree to disagree on this one.... lol!!

 

[D Skelton]

Is there any such endorsement for the looping at light method?

Tin hat on

 

[VoltzElectrical]

cheers then '54. Sometimes, the 'agree to disagree is the best approach and I salute your steadfast approach. Im sure I would learn a lot from you on a job (seriously now, no tongue in cheek). It's a diverse world out there and as long as we're not working dangerously then there is no harm done accepting different working practices. The only harm done is when people can't accept (for no good reason i.e. a regulatory stipulation) that other working practices exist and stick dogmatically to their own ways when other ways could be better and won't open their minds to learning from other people.

Your contributions are thoughtful, respectful, and are borne in mind. i may need you sometime for further enlightenment.

Until then, goodnight and godbless.

regards.

 

[Engineer54]

Is there any such endorsement for the looping at light method?

Tin hat on

Pick up any publication of any merit, such as the various electrician guides and installation practices that are available, discussing or showing lighting circuits diagrams.

 

[D Skelton]

I would say that they are mere examples or diagrams, not endorsements.

For the record, I don't loop at switches, I'm just playing devils advocate.

 

[Engineer54]

I would say that they are mere examples or diagrams, not endorsements.

For the record, I don't loop at switches, I'm just playing devils advocate.

Your probably right, but at least they never use (as far as i have seen) switch looping in their examples!! lol!! Which could in a weird way, be seen as a form of endorsing a particular method over another. ...lol!!!!

 

[ian.settle1]

"There goes yet another nail into the coffin of our industry!! "

Not really.

Its safer, fact.

Most electrocutions occur when a DIYer switches off the switch and removes his ceiling rose believing it is dead "but I switched it off!" he says. Zap.

Its so much more logical to have the neutral at the switch. Turn of the switch and the light is dead, unless of course the missus comes in a switches it back on.

I think my first question is a bit daft anyway. It would all depend on the circuit arangements, I was just wondering and thought there may be a magical equation

Regards

Si

Just go's to show that they are not competant to do electrical work.

 

[Risteard]

I'll see if I can find the IET notes for the pre- AM2 with diagram. off to walk the dog now though.

Cheers.

I presume you're referring to the NET (National Electrotechnical Training). Unless I'm missing something I can't see the connection between the IEE and the AM2.

 

[Octopus]

51 entries - wow.

Either way, IMHO, is appropriate - it generally depends on the design of the house, circuit, etc

Personally I perfer hiding JB's under yards of insulation material along with GU10 down lights, omitting identifying the switch cables properly, ignoring IP rating rules in bathrooms, etc, etc.


JOKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Lucas]

I genuinly can't see the advantage of Looping at the rose instead of the switch. Looping at the rose mean's you're spending more time working overhead and at a difficult angle which nobody like's doing.

Looping at the switch is miles better IMHO, if you've got a fault its at a comfortable height and if you ever have to add an outside light just a single cable chase up above the switch and you're there. You don't have to worry about get multiple cables to the light. Also, how many times in a loft are the door's relativly close to the loft hatch? Switche's are generally next to the door. Mean's you only have to worry about getting one cable out to the centre of each room which can be a complete pain in a small loft when you have to get two cable's out to the rose and it save's time, you're in the loft shorter because everything is close to the entry hatch. Started rambling at the end but it makes sense to me lol.

 

[llywelyn111]

I loop in at either switch or fitting, all depends on what is easier for the type of lights that are being installed. When downlights or doing outside lights are installed I always loop in at the switch.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

I presume you're referring to the NET (National Electrotechnical Training). Unless I'm missing something I can't see the connection between the IEE and the AM2.

yes. NET, not IEE. My mistake there. still. it's a National endorsement for the method.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Hager's New Sollysta White Moulded and Grid Wiring Accessories - Electrical Industry Installation News and Information Portal: e-lec.org

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I would have thought either method is acceptable as both employ barriers and enclosures as a means of basic protection.....

 

[cjp1]

I would have thought either method is acceptable as both employ barriers and enclosures as a means of basic protection.....

agreed I use what ever method is best suited to what is being installed .

 

[GLENNSPARK]

agreed I use what ever method is best suited to what is being installed .

And...in the case of a new install (17th)....additional protection by RCD........

 

[Deleted member 9648]

What electronic devices, and would you need a neutral at every switch in the installation?? I think not to be honest!! I don't have anything against having a neutral at the switch position, but ONLY when a neutral is needed. I would never and have never looped through switches as a matter of course. To-date, i have never seen any official body either showing wiring diagrams or describing switch looped lighting circuits or in any other way endorsing such a wiring scheme.

If you take that line Eng54 lighting using T/E cable would be impossible other than using joint boxes. Neutrals at switches not allowed because they are not required?...Well permanant lives are not required at a light,so presumably you do not approve of looping in at lights either?...which leaves only the JB method.

The fact is neutrals used to be frowned on at switches....but nobody has ever been able to give a reason why. For that reason common sense has prevailed and neutrals at switches are just as valid as any other method.