Loop in at ceiling rose or switch?

[D Skelton]

For downlights I almost always use the JB method. I would imagine that in most cases that would be the easiest way to do it?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Well as long as all non-maintainence free joints are accessible...then...for me its good......

 

[D Skelton]

Yeah, always accesible through the first downlight hole.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Yeah, always accesible through the first downlight hole.

Unlike this bloody house we have been goin to recently.....believe me there were joint boxes in places you would not have thought possible.....we ended up virtually rewiring the gaf and all the client thought was needed origionally was a new ring for the kitchen....the further into the job we got ...the more JBs we found and they just kept on coming....and coming....and coming....at least 20-25 at last count......and all in inaccessible places too....didn`t comply with owt ...that un...........

 

[nickblake]

If the manufacturers made light fittings and there connections big enough to get cables into then it would be at the rose , when doing wall lights if you put n the feeds and switch wires to the fittings then there is a very high possability of a screw through a cable due to the size of the fixing brackets etc it is in this scenario where i will use switch feed, i dont like doing it but i do , when the whole installation is switch feed and you need to add another light then you have a problem identifying which is the live no always easy to do with a volt stick as they are unreliable and will light if there is induced voltage , i have had to do it a few time where the installation is switch feed so much easier with rose feeds , so ceiling rose to me ,as for the question in hand to use less cable would be ceiling feed as youll only have one drop to the light switch not 3 so less cable will be used ,for thiose intrestsed the only recognised maintainance free JB of connection will be marked MF just for the info that

 

[Engineer54]

If you take that line Eng54 lighting using T/E cable would be impossible other than using joint boxes. Neutrals at switches not allowed because they are not required?...Well permanant lives are not required at a light,so presumably you do not approve of looping in at lights either?...which leaves only the JB method.

The fact is neutrals used to be frowned on at switches....but nobody has ever been able to give a reason why. For that reason common sense has prevailed and neutrals at switches are just as valid as any other method.

Absolute rubbish!! And who said anything about neutrals not being allowed at switches? Your making things up as you go along. As for commonsense, who the hell wants to open up a switch plate to find it full of cables bunched up with connectors galore?? If it meant keeping unwanted and certainly unneeded cables out of switch back boxes then your right, i'd certainly plumb for using modern day types of JB's over looping in switch boxes. Can't see how you could get around wiring a multiple down-lighter installation without the use of JB's anyway, no matter what looping method you used....

Let's get this straight, it's the looping thru switches that i have a problem with, NOT having a neutral connection at the switch, when it's Needed...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

you can even wire 2 way switching using a 3 core switch to switch via the 3 plate and just break into the switched live there (at the 3 plate)

 

[GLENNSPARK]

And...shunt the live feed across at the switches (2 gang) and bring a 2 core back to the 3 plate where you would use a connector block...for wall lights.........

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Absolute rubbish!! And who said anything about neutrals not being allowed at switches? Your making things up as you go along. As for commonsense, who the hell wants to open up a switch plate to find it full of cables bunched up with connectors galore?? If you loop through a switch you will have one connector for the neutrals per circuit. If it meant keeping unwanted and certainly unneeded cables out of switch back boxes then your right, i'd certainly plumb for using modern day types of JB's over looping in switch boxes. Can't see how you could get around wiring a multiple down-lighter installation without the use of JB's anyway, no matter what looping method you used......Take the feed through the switch and loop to each light...two or possibly three cables at the switch and two maximum at each light

Let's get this straight, it's the looping thru switches that i have a problem with, NOT having a neutral connection at the switch, when it's Needed...And you have never given a satisfactory reason why,other than the wad of wires you seem to think is inevitable,but if you work it out,is actually not.

.......

E54...I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and considerable useful input into this forum...but on this I am afraid it is you talking rubbish,not me.

 

[D Skelton]

Personally, I think you both have very valid points. I guess its as others have stated in that it all depends on the situation. Mind you, not that I have any experience of doing it but I'd imagine clipping three cables into every switch chase instead of one could become very tedious.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Personally, I think you both have very valid points. I guess its as others have stated in that it all depends on the situation. Mind you, not that I have any experience of doing it but I'd imagine clipping three cables into every switch chase instead of one could become very tedious.

Yep...it isn`t just about whats going on behind the switch front......its getting the cables there (and back) n all in any semblance of order............

 

[Engineer54]

So ....no containment at the down-lighters for the building wire loops, ...really, ...OK , lol!!!

At a single 1 way one gang maybe, but that's not always the case is it, especially in hallways/porches etc!! The last thread on this subject someone actually posted a photo of a switch looped switch, it looked as if you would need to force the dammed switch plate back into the box. So not my imagination at all!!

What you may call a satisfactory answer, is not necessarily anyone else's! I think i've made my position just about as clear as i can, if you don't agree that's fine too. I'm not telling you how to wire anything, you've been in this game long enough to decide that for yourself.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So ....no containment at the down-lighters for the building wire loops, ...really, ...OK , lol!!!

At a single 1 way one gang maybe, but that's not always the case is it, especially in hallways/porches etc!! The last thread on this subject someone actually posted a photo of a switch looped switch, it looked as if you would need to force the dammed switch plate back into the box. So not my imagination at all!!

What you may call a satisfactory answer, is not necessarily anyone else's! I think i've made my position just about as clear as i can, if you don't agree that's fine too. I'm not telling you how to wire anything, you've been in this game long enough to decide that for yourself.

Just to add my twopenneth here eng before bedtime......we often find it can get a bit congested behind switch fronts.....so just go for a deeper box................

 

[topquark]

I thought lupins were plants, but then my gardenin ain't up to much either

 

[Engineer54]

Just to add my twopenneth here eng before bedtime......we often find it can get a bit congested behind switch fronts.....so just go for a deeper box................

And very good advice too!! But then, ....just how often do you see electricians these days spending more time chopping out for those deeper boxes?? Not very often is it!!!!

 

[Lucas]

I almost always fit a 35mm box. I've easily managed to fit 8 cables (2* feed's, 3* switch lives and 3 3core's) into a single 35mm backbox no trouble, dress it in all neatly and it will push in like a dream

 

[Engineer54]

I almost always fit a 35mm box. I've easily managed to fit 8 cables (2* feed's, 3* switch lives and 3 3core's) into a single 35mm backbox no trouble, dress it in all neatly and it will push in like a dream

A perfect example!! I Rest my case!! lol!!!

 

[D Skelton]

I almost always fit a 35mm box. I've easily managed to fit 8 cables (2* feed's, 3* switch lives and 3 3core's) into a single 35mm backbox no trouble, dress it in all neatly and it will push in like a dream

Way too much like hard work for me! How on earth do you contain 8 cables in a chased out wall? Must be a right old mission!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

So ....no containment at the down-lighters for the building wire loops, ...really, ...OK , lol!!!

At a single 1 way one gang maybe, but that's not always the case is it, especially in hallways/porches etc!! The last thread on this subject someone actually posted a photo of a switch looped switch, it looked as if you would need to force the dammed switch plate back into the box. So not my imagination at all!!

What you may call a satisfactory answer, is not necessarily anyone else's! I think i've made my position just about as clear as i can, if you don't agree that's fine too. I'm not telling you how to wire anything, you've been in this game long enough to decide that for yourself.

You've lost me there E'.....maybe I'm having a blonde moment but you'll have to elaborate.

 

[Lucas]

A perfect example!! I Rest my case!! lol!!!

Like I said, dress it in neatly and it will fit in like a dream, take your time and it will be no trouble at all, go at it like a bull in a china shop and you will struggle dressing it back.

The switch in question was on a landing with 2 2way's for up and down, a 3core for a fan and 3 switch lines. All you have added into that switch instead of taking the feed into the rose is 3 extra cables (Feed and Fan) Still would of been 5 cables there regardless, 3 more isn't going to make to much difference. I use 1mm 3core anyway so I've got more play dressing it in. Id much rather work at switch height doing it than working above head at a pendant with aching arm's and a creaking neck!