Loop in at ceiling rose or switch?

[Risteard]

I'll see if I can find the IET notes for the pre- AM2 with diagram. off to walk the dog now though.

Cheers.

I presume you're referring to the NET (National Electrotechnical Training). Unless I'm missing something I can't see the connection between the IEE and the AM2.

 

[Octopus]

51 entries - wow.

Either way, IMHO, is appropriate - it generally depends on the design of the house, circuit, etc

Personally I perfer hiding JB's under yards of insulation material along with GU10 down lights, omitting identifying the switch cables properly, ignoring IP rating rules in bathrooms, etc, etc.


JOKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Lucas]

I genuinly can't see the advantage of Looping at the rose instead of the switch. Looping at the rose mean's you're spending more time working overhead and at a difficult angle which nobody like's doing.

Looping at the switch is miles better IMHO, if you've got a fault its at a comfortable height and if you ever have to add an outside light just a single cable chase up above the switch and you're there. You don't have to worry about get multiple cables to the light. Also, how many times in a loft are the door's relativly close to the loft hatch? Switche's are generally next to the door. Mean's you only have to worry about getting one cable out to the centre of each room which can be a complete pain in a small loft when you have to get two cable's out to the rose and it save's time, you're in the loft shorter because everything is close to the entry hatch. Started rambling at the end but it makes sense to me lol.

 

[llywelyn111]

I loop in at either switch or fitting, all depends on what is easier for the type of lights that are being installed. When downlights or doing outside lights are installed I always loop in at the switch.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

I presume you're referring to the NET (National Electrotechnical Training). Unless I'm missing something I can't see the connection between the IEE and the AM2.

yes. NET, not IEE. My mistake there. still. it's a National endorsement for the method.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Hager's New Sollysta White Moulded and Grid Wiring Accessories - Electrical Industry Installation News and Information Portal: e-lec.org

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I would have thought either method is acceptable as both employ barriers and enclosures as a means of basic protection.....

 

[cjp1]

I would have thought either method is acceptable as both employ barriers and enclosures as a means of basic protection.....

agreed I use what ever method is best suited to what is being installed .

 

[GLENNSPARK]

agreed I use what ever method is best suited to what is being installed .

And...in the case of a new install (17th)....additional protection by RCD........

 

[Deleted member 9648]

What electronic devices, and would you need a neutral at every switch in the installation?? I think not to be honest!! I don't have anything against having a neutral at the switch position, but ONLY when a neutral is needed. I would never and have never looped through switches as a matter of course. To-date, i have never seen any official body either showing wiring diagrams or describing switch looped lighting circuits or in any other way endorsing such a wiring scheme.

If you take that line Eng54 lighting using T/E cable would be impossible other than using joint boxes. Neutrals at switches not allowed because they are not required?...Well permanant lives are not required at a light,so presumably you do not approve of looping in at lights either?...which leaves only the JB method.

The fact is neutrals used to be frowned on at switches....but nobody has ever been able to give a reason why. For that reason common sense has prevailed and neutrals at switches are just as valid as any other method.

 

[D Skelton]

For downlights I almost always use the JB method. I would imagine that in most cases that would be the easiest way to do it?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Well as long as all non-maintainence free joints are accessible...then...for me its good......

 

[D Skelton]

Yeah, always accesible through the first downlight hole.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Yeah, always accesible through the first downlight hole.

Unlike this bloody house we have been goin to recently.....believe me there were joint boxes in places you would not have thought possible.....we ended up virtually rewiring the gaf and all the client thought was needed origionally was a new ring for the kitchen....the further into the job we got ...the more JBs we found and they just kept on coming....and coming....and coming....at least 20-25 at last count......and all in inaccessible places too....didn`t comply with owt ...that un...........

 

[nickblake]

If the manufacturers made light fittings and there connections big enough to get cables into then it would be at the rose , when doing wall lights if you put n the feeds and switch wires to the fittings then there is a very high possability of a screw through a cable due to the size of the fixing brackets etc it is in this scenario where i will use switch feed, i dont like doing it but i do , when the whole installation is switch feed and you need to add another light then you have a problem identifying which is the live no always easy to do with a volt stick as they are unreliable and will light if there is induced voltage , i have had to do it a few time where the installation is switch feed so much easier with rose feeds , so ceiling rose to me ,as for the question in hand to use less cable would be ceiling feed as youll only have one drop to the light switch not 3 so less cable will be used ,for thiose intrestsed the only recognised maintainance free JB of connection will be marked MF just for the info that

 

[Engineer54]

If you take that line Eng54 lighting using T/E cable would be impossible other than using joint boxes. Neutrals at switches not allowed because they are not required?...Well permanant lives are not required at a light,so presumably you do not approve of looping in at lights either?...which leaves only the JB method.

The fact is neutrals used to be frowned on at switches....but nobody has ever been able to give a reason why. For that reason common sense has prevailed and neutrals at switches are just as valid as any other method.

Absolute rubbish!! And who said anything about neutrals not being allowed at switches? Your making things up as you go along. As for commonsense, who the hell wants to open up a switch plate to find it full of cables bunched up with connectors galore?? If it meant keeping unwanted and certainly unneeded cables out of switch back boxes then your right, i'd certainly plumb for using modern day types of JB's over looping in switch boxes. Can't see how you could get around wiring a multiple down-lighter installation without the use of JB's anyway, no matter what looping method you used....

Let's get this straight, it's the looping thru switches that i have a problem with, NOT having a neutral connection at the switch, when it's Needed...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

you can even wire 2 way switching using a 3 core switch to switch via the 3 plate and just break into the switched live there (at the 3 plate)

 

[GLENNSPARK]

And...shunt the live feed across at the switches (2 gang) and bring a 2 core back to the 3 plate where you would use a connector block...for wall lights.........

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Absolute rubbish!! And who said anything about neutrals not being allowed at switches? Your making things up as you go along. As for commonsense, who the hell wants to open up a switch plate to find it full of cables bunched up with connectors galore?? If you loop through a switch you will have one connector for the neutrals per circuit. If it meant keeping unwanted and certainly unneeded cables out of switch back boxes then your right, i'd certainly plumb for using modern day types of JB's over looping in switch boxes. Can't see how you could get around wiring a multiple down-lighter installation without the use of JB's anyway, no matter what looping method you used......Take the feed through the switch and loop to each light...two or possibly three cables at the switch and two maximum at each light

Let's get this straight, it's the looping thru switches that i have a problem with, NOT having a neutral connection at the switch, when it's Needed...And you have never given a satisfactory reason why,other than the wad of wires you seem to think is inevitable,but if you work it out,is actually not.

.......

E54...I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and considerable useful input into this forum...but on this I am afraid it is you talking rubbish,not me.

 

[D Skelton]

Personally, I think you both have very valid points. I guess its as others have stated in that it all depends on the situation. Mind you, not that I have any experience of doing it but I'd imagine clipping three cables into every switch chase instead of one could become very tedious.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Personally, I think you both have very valid points. I guess its as others have stated in that it all depends on the situation. Mind you, not that I have any experience of doing it but I'd imagine clipping three cables into every switch chase instead of one could become very tedious.

Yep...it isn`t just about whats going on behind the switch front......its getting the cables there (and back) n all in any semblance of order............

 

[Engineer54]

So ....no containment at the down-lighters for the building wire loops, ...really, ...OK , lol!!!

At a single 1 way one gang maybe, but that's not always the case is it, especially in hallways/porches etc!! The last thread on this subject someone actually posted a photo of a switch looped switch, it looked as if you would need to force the dammed switch plate back into the box. So not my imagination at all!!

What you may call a satisfactory answer, is not necessarily anyone else's! I think i've made my position just about as clear as i can, if you don't agree that's fine too. I'm not telling you how to wire anything, you've been in this game long enough to decide that for yourself.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So ....no containment at the down-lighters for the building wire loops, ...really, ...OK , lol!!!

At a single 1 way one gang maybe, but that's not always the case is it, especially in hallways/porches etc!! The last thread on this subject someone actually posted a photo of a switch looped switch, it looked as if you would need to force the dammed switch plate back into the box. So not my imagination at all!!

What you may call a satisfactory answer, is not necessarily anyone else's! I think i've made my position just about as clear as i can, if you don't agree that's fine too. I'm not telling you how to wire anything, you've been in this game long enough to decide that for yourself.

Just to add my twopenneth here eng before bedtime......we often find it can get a bit congested behind switch fronts.....so just go for a deeper box................

 

[topquark]

I thought lupins were plants, but then my gardenin ain't up to much either

 

[Engineer54]

Just to add my twopenneth here eng before bedtime......we often find it can get a bit congested behind switch fronts.....so just go for a deeper box................

And very good advice too!! But then, ....just how often do you see electricians these days spending more time chopping out for those deeper boxes?? Not very often is it!!!!

 

[Lucas]

I almost always fit a 35mm box. I've easily managed to fit 8 cables (2* feed's, 3* switch lives and 3 3core's) into a single 35mm backbox no trouble, dress it in all neatly and it will push in like a dream

 

[Engineer54]

I almost always fit a 35mm box. I've easily managed to fit 8 cables (2* feed's, 3* switch lives and 3 3core's) into a single 35mm backbox no trouble, dress it in all neatly and it will push in like a dream

A perfect example!! I Rest my case!! lol!!!

 

[D Skelton]

I almost always fit a 35mm box. I've easily managed to fit 8 cables (2* feed's, 3* switch lives and 3 3core's) into a single 35mm backbox no trouble, dress it in all neatly and it will push in like a dream

Way too much like hard work for me! How on earth do you contain 8 cables in a chased out wall? Must be a right old mission!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

So ....no containment at the down-lighters for the building wire loops, ...really, ...OK , lol!!!

At a single 1 way one gang maybe, but that's not always the case is it, especially in hallways/porches etc!! The last thread on this subject someone actually posted a photo of a switch looped switch, it looked as if you would need to force the dammed switch plate back into the box. So not my imagination at all!!

What you may call a satisfactory answer, is not necessarily anyone else's! I think i've made my position just about as clear as i can, if you don't agree that's fine too. I'm not telling you how to wire anything, you've been in this game long enough to decide that for yourself.

You've lost me there E'.....maybe I'm having a blonde moment but you'll have to elaborate.

 

[Lucas]

A perfect example!! I Rest my case!! lol!!!

Like I said, dress it in neatly and it will fit in like a dream, take your time and it will be no trouble at all, go at it like a bull in a china shop and you will struggle dressing it back.

The switch in question was on a landing with 2 2way's for up and down, a 3core for a fan and 3 switch lines. All you have added into that switch instead of taking the feed into the rose is 3 extra cables (Feed and Fan) Still would of been 5 cables there regardless, 3 more isn't going to make to much difference. I use 1mm 3core anyway so I've got more play dressing it in. Id much rather work at switch height doing it than working above head at a pendant with aching arm's and a creaking neck!

 

[UNG]

And very good advice too!! But then, ....just how often do you see electricians these days spending more time chopping out for those deeper boxes?? Not very often is it!!!!

All part of the de skilling in the industry these days it seems most are too proud to chop out for boxes or do the meanial bits of installation work in our trade

 

[jase]

So ....no containment at the down-lighters for the building wire loops, ...really, ...OK , lol!!!

At a single 1 way one gang maybe, but that's not always the case is it, especially in hallways/porches etc!! The last thread on this subject someone actually posted a photo of a switch looped switch, it looked as if you would need to force the dammed switch plate back into the box. So not my imagination at all!!

What you may call a satisfactory answer, is not necessarily anyone else's! I think i've made my position just about as clear as i can, if you don't agree that's fine too. I'm not telling you how to wire anything, you've been in this game long enough to decide that for yourself.

3G switch with feed in, feed out, switch line 1 switch line 2 switch line 3 and a 3 c to another 1 g switch somewhere for a 2 way == still only one 6 way wago block for 5 neutrals.

 

[jase]

And very good advice too!! But then, ....just how often do you see electricians these days spending more time chopping out for those deeper boxes?? Not very often is it!!!!

i always chase out 35mm boxes for all single boxes, gives me the scope to use feed in feed out on switches if i like and also is a better depth box for fuse spurs in kitchens where you have got 3 2.5mm in the boxes, i also use 47mm boxes for shaver points and cooker switches/outlets.

 

[Engineer54]

3G switch with feed in, feed out, switch line 1 switch line 2 switch line 3 and a 3 c to another 1 g switch somewhere for a 2 way == still only one 6 way wago block for 5 neutrals.

So you have 5 neutrals sitting behind a wall switch plate and proud of it no doubt too!!... I suppose we should forget about all the other cores filling up the back box! haha!!!

i always chase out 35mm boxes for all single boxes, gives me the scope to use feed in feed out on switches if i like and also is a better depth box for fuse spurs in kitchens where you have got 3 2.5mm in the boxes, i also use 47mm boxes for shaver points and cooker switches/outlets.

If that's right what your telling us here , you are one of the very, very few that would chop in 35 and 47mm back boxes as a normal course of installation. Though it would still not make it right in my mind, to use a switch looped system...

 

[jase]

If that's right what your telling us here , you are one of the very, very few that would chop in 35 and 47mm back boxes as a normal course of installation. Though it would still not make it right in my mind, to use a switch looped system...[/QUOTE]


if you are not using 35 or 47mm boxes then you are squashing 3 x 2.5mm for a fuse spur into a 25mm box? or 6mm's into what? a 25mm box too??????

 

[Engineer54]

Thought we were talking about ''Loop in at ceiling rose or switch'' So what are you on about here??

 

[dingodeano]

Ive read through this thread and my fifty pence is this...
When i do a new install from scratch i loop in at the ceiling roses or light fitting. if there is a couple of lights to go outside at end of the lighting circuit i am not adverse to looping those in at the switch and straight out the wall in fact i would be happy too.
I have no problem with anyone doing their whole install looping at every switch.. but i cant say i like the thought of going and make an addition (another light and switch) on a lighting circuit looped at every switch.

 

[Fin170]

Preferably to the switch

Easier to wire
Easier on the light fittings
Less time up the ladder (Health and safety?)
"I've changed my mind"
In most cases easier to add an additional light to that switch (all though you have feeds above and at the switch for future....who knows)?

 

[Dave 85]

As with all these type of debates we seem to have one party arguing in favour of whichever course is most logical for the job its being applied to and the other party arguing that, it should be done the way its always been done because thats the way its always been done and progress is bad, and the industry, the poor old industry doesn't like it.......
yawn.........

Me?
If its a bog standard rewire with single pendant per room I'll loop the pendant. Downlights, kitchens, bathrooms etc I nearly always feed the switch. Why? Because I prefer to work on something at chest height than something above my head. Easier on the arms. And I dont enjoy trying to get 6 cables into a JB that needs to fit through a 70mm hole. Its slower. Time is money.