Main supply to fire alarm panel

[Ian1981]

what is everyone's opinion about fire alarm supply's to the main panel.
Im of the understanding that the mains is part of the integral fire alarm system, thus should be of a different colour for identification to the other building wiring normally red.
I have a colleague at work who disagrees and every chance he gets he's installed the mains in standard twin & earth or if needed LSOH cable.
Cheers.

 

[Leesparkykent]

what is everyone's opinion about fire alarm supply's to the main panel.
Im of the understanding that the mains is part of the integral fire alarm system, thus should be of a different colour for identification to the other building wiring normally red.
I have a colleague at work who disagrees and every chance he gets he's installed the mains in standard twin & earth or if needed LSOH cable.
Cheers.

The guy I use to design/commission makes us use red.

 

[westward10]

No it doesn't need to be red but it should be fire resistant or installed in such a manner to provide fire resistance as prescribed in BS5839-1. The use of thermoplastic cables would generally not meet the requirements.

 

[Leesparkykent]

just found this bit of info that someone has quoted from BS5839

Recommendations for mains power supplies
The following recommendations are applicable to the low voltage mains supply to the system.

NOTE 1 This supply should be regarded as an integral part of the fire alarm system, particularly for the purpose of certification
of the system (see Clause 41), regardless of whether the electrical installation within the building is provided by the organization
responsible for installation of the fire alarm system.

"All fire alarm cables should be of a single, common colour that is not used for cables of general electrical services in the building, to enable these cables to be distinguished from those of other circuits."
NOTE 13 The colour red is preferred.

 

[Ian1981]

I keep asking to see a copy of bs 5839 from my company to cross reference as I'm reluctant to buy it myself as I like to keep away from fire alarm installs.

 

[Ian1981]

just found this bit of info that someone has quoted from BS5839

Recommendations for mains power supplies
The following recommendations are applicable to the low voltage mains supply to the system.

NOTE 1 This supply should be regarded as an integral part of the fire alarm system, particularly for the purpose of certification
of the system (see Clause 41), regardless of whether the electrical installation within the building is provided by the organization
responsible for installation of the fire alarm system.

"All fire alarm cables should be of a single, common colour that is not used for cables of general electrical services in the building, to enable these cables to be distinguished from those of other circuits."
NOTE 13 The colour red is preferred.

Yeah I've got a screenshot on my phone of this.
However is it final or just a recommendation?

 

[Leesparkykent]

Yeah I've got a screenshot on my phone of this.
However is it final or just a recommendation?

@tazz would be the man in the know......Haven't seen him about for a while but tagging him in this post might notify him

 

[LankyWill]

Im with Lee. Our local council dictates the colour in our area, they have chosen red for fire alarm installations to separate the fire alarm from the normal building supplies. Strange that the council has a say but we have a massive contract with them so were not falling out over a cable colour

 

[GMES]

Red FP according to my fire alarm Designer, I have got 5839 in the office but I don't like anybody on here enough to drive there and look at it.

 

[Flanders]

Red fp 200 or MI , should be fed from the main panel,not a sub board and I also believe it should not be 30ma rcd protected (not sure if thats a reg or just guidance).

 

[westward10]

Rcd protection is not advised however conditions or BS7671 may require it.

 

[Ian1981]

Yeah I've got a screenshot on my phone of this.
However is it final or just a recommendation?

If I hav

Red fp 200 or MI , should be fed from the main panel,not a sub board and I also believe it should not be 30ma rcd protected (not sure if thats a reg or just guidance).

i think non rcd is preferred but if it has to be 30mA for additional protection purposes buried in a wall especially with metal construction then an rcbo isn't too bad as it's individually protected.

 

[Leesparkykent]

FP 200 gold or FP plus can be installed without additional protection.

 

[Ian1981]

FP 200 gold or FP plus can be installed without additional protection.

Does the foil count as earthed metal protection then as would swa on armoured cable?
I'm aware bs 7671 gives examples of the types of British standard cables which can be used , I'll have a look tomorrow.

 

[Leesparkykent]

This explains it better than I can

Fire alarm cables for use in thin walls or partitions - http://www.voltimum.co.uk/articles/fire-alarm-cables-use-thin-walls-or-partitions-0

Basically because it meets the nail penetration test the same as BS8436 cable but also BS8436 cable can only be installed without additional protection if buried in a wall<50mm etc if its on a type b breaker/RCBO

http://www.napitonline.com/downloads/CP 3 08 P 11-12 BS 8436 Cables.pdf

 

[GMES]

We could always ask @westward10 what it says in the Best practice guide.

 

[Ian1981]

This explains it better than I can

Fire alarm cables for use in thin walls or partitions - http://www.voltimum.co.uk/articles/fire-alarm-cables-use-thin-walls-or-partitions-0

Basically because it meets the nail penetration test the same as BS8436 cable but also BS8436 cable can only be installed without additional protection if buried in a wall<50mm etc if its on a type b breaker/RCBO

http://www.napitonline.com/downloads/CP 3 08 P 11-12 BS 8436 Cables.pdf

Nice advice lee.
That's why I come on the forum cheers

 

[Ian1981]

We could always ask @westward10 what it says in the Best practice guide.

I'm saying nowt

 

[tazz]

Supply to a fire alarm panel needs to be wired in Enhanced fire proof cable. T & E or basic FP200 is against the regs. Enhanced cables include Piro, Armored or FP200 Enhanced. Colour is not important unless requested in the specification, personally I would recommend white FP or black Armored, to identify the cable is being used for 230v, preventing confusion with red loop or zone cables. A double pole, lockable fused spur should also be used local to the control panel.

 

[Ian1981]

Supply to a fire alarm panel needs to be wired in Enhanced fire proof cable. T & E or basic FP200 is against the regs. Enhanced cables include Piro, Armored or FP200 Enhanced. Colour is not important unless requested in the specification, personally I would recommend white FP or black Armored, to identify the cable is being used for 230v, preventing confusion with red loop or zone cables. A double pole, lockable fused spur should also be used local to the control panel.

If supply to panel is installed in Enhanced fire proof cable , would it go down as a departure on the eic as this cable is not covered by bs 7671?

 

[Ian1981]

If supply cable to panel is installed in Enhanced fire proof cable , would it go down as a departure on the eic as this cable is not covered by bs 7671?

 

[westward10]

If supply to panel is installed in Enhanced fire proof cable , would it go down as a departure on the eic as this cable is not covered by bs 7671?

See Regs 560.8.1 and 560.10

 

[Ian1981]

See Regs 560.8.1 and 560.10

Fair comment

 

[telectrix]

deleted

 

[telectrix]

See Regs 560.8.1 and 560.10

SWOT !

 

[hightower]

Useful tip, if you join your local library you should get an online account. As well as being able to read books and magazines online, you should get access to British Standards Online and you can get the fire regs there.

For those who can't be bothered to sign up with their library, Drop me a PM - if you're a long standing member on here who I have built up a trust for, I may be able to help you out.

 

[tazz]

The cable is cover by both BS5839 part 1 and BS7671, and should be tested and recorded as any other cable installed. This also goes for zone/loop cables and any bell/sounder cables.