To work live or not??

[alarm man]

i would have thought working live in a place like a hospital would be valid,but only by qualified people with the right ppe and training and those fancy million volt tool kits,ive seen nedl work live in a factory after vandals had smashed the meter and fuses off,they had all the kit and the second man was there with a stick to push him off if it all went wrong(i was gonna say pull him off,but i can hear tittering at the back already) was very interesting to watch,but there were trained to do it,the reason for it was they said they cant switch it all off as would affect production for the surrounding factories.

 

[cagedanimal2010]

i hope this job has been done by now!!!

 

[Engineer54]

I have two observations to make, one relating to the OP, and one on hospital emergencey supplies.

1/ Apart from making a means of entry to these 3 phase distribution boards, what will you be working live on?? The tails for the adjacent CU will be connected to the dead side of a CB or fuse carrier that just leaves the neutral and CPC conections!!! Why would you need to kill power to the 3PH DB?? That work should be well within the realms of a competent electrician, ....Surely!!!

2/ Hospital essential emergency supplies operate at a higher level than local distribution boards, any failure on downstream DB's will not initiate any change-over. Contrary to popular believe here, there are ''Few'' areas in hospitals that will be covered by UPS systems. General ward areas will most certainly not be so covered.

The areas of that will have UPS systems, will be generally limited to operating theatres, cesarean delivery rooms, specialised medical rooms, central blood bank area, etc... There maybe also be small essential appliance based UPS modules scattered about as required.

 

[maslg]

Hii with regards to live working you need to look at electricity at works act 1989 with regards to working safely ,there are 16 regulations refering to low voltage system which state the precautions that have to be in place to work on live systems i.e. adequate light,space,and acces. Hospitial require a (ups) uninterupted power supply therefore you may require a permit to work.

and dont forget ventilation,at the end of the day if Scudd does his own risk assessment and feel he could harm himself or anyone else then he should not work live its his call regaurdless of what any regulations states.Regulations are there for giudance.

 

[Knobhead]

I think E54 you’ve hit on the nub of the matter, “competency” to carry out a task. One of the first things I was shown was how to protect cables when drilling in to a live DB, it’s not rocket science.

Some very old boards I would be dubious about but I’ve not seen a 200A open frame board for 20+ years and we had plenty of them. But again if you knew what you were doing they were no problem. I used to enjoy working on them, but then you all know I’m MAD

View attachment 7787

 

[Des 56]

I cant ever remember switching off a bus bar chamber to terminate a cable until the final connections were needed,silly me I know

Its amazing what protection a piece of plyboard shoved in and 1mm single strapped diagonally across the cover fixing holes can provide to the mindset, it provides a mental block against poking your fingers in where they shouldn't go

I know the post will get panned by the H+S freaks,but that was the reality of expectations

 

[Engineer54]

I cant ever remember switching off a bus bar chamber to terminate a cable until the final connections were needed,silly me I know

Its amazing what protection a piece of plyboard shoved in and 1mm single strapped diagonally across the cover fixing holes can provide to the mindset, it provides a mental block against poking your fingers in where they shouldn't go

I know the post will get panned by the H+S freaks,but that was the reality of expectations

Talking of bus bar chambers, i wonder what the H&S would have to say about drilling them live for new cable bolt connections. I've had to do that in the past, albeit with supervision, ie, a guy with a decent sized lump of wood, just in case so to speak!! As you say Des, that was part and parcel of the real world of expectations of electricians, ....and i was still training at the time!! lol!!

 

[netblindpaul]

OK, but is the rest correct?

I believe it is Tony

 

[netblindpaul]

There is nothing wrong with or in your descriptive post Tony, including the term ''MV''. Which just about every institution, Engineer, Supplier, Contracting company etc, involved in this area in the UK refers this voltage band as, ....so it's far from ''end of story!!'' It's not our problem that our BS system is 30 years out of date with everyone else.

As for the students just coming into our profession, most will have no dealings whatsoever with anything over 1KV. Those that are interested will ask, and can be correctly informed. Blindly ignoring the fact that this is an international recognised voltage band is nonsense. As is the failure of our BS system still holding on to LV and HV, when no-body else that is involved in this industry area is, in the UK!!! All it achieves is to cause ignorance and confusion all round!!

Tony's descriptive post is correct E54 as you say.
However it is not just the UK standards that are out of kilter with the rest of the world, it is our statute laws as well.
We get enough problems explaining to people that 400/415 volts is Low Voltage let alone bringing in a term that is not included in any UK standards, or UK legislation.
You know I understand your terms, as does Tony and many others.
I still though believe that as this is a UK based forum, and I have been told quite forcefully recently that my posts were unhelpful and insulting to other members for even suggesting that they were perhaps doing something that there should not be any confusion wrt using the correct terminology as detailed in UK law & standards.

 

[netblindpaul]

There are many of a certain age who have worked live, for shame!

Thing is now it is frowned upon, just like updated regs books we have to move with the tide.

One reason for it is the reduced competence of those being trained now, so they have to reduce the risks.
Training now is not what it was.

One comment on the hospital works.

When I work at my one of my local hospitals in their DB's I am not allowed to do my own isolation, nor even open the DB cover!
Their electrical engineer comes along, we test, we isolate, we test, he locks off, issues a ptw then we work.
Following this the process is reversed.
SO as far as working live in a board goes, in my local area no chance!

 

[jaresquire]

Added some em lighting in a commercial unit recently. They're a heavily IT based company and were running their servers and network kit off the office ring, the whole db having a global 30mA RCD. Not so worried about working a live db but tripping that RCD!

 

[Engineer54]

There are many of a certain age who have worked live, for shame!

Thing is now it is frowned upon, just like updated regs books we have to move with the tide.

One reason for it is the reduced competence of those being trained now, so they have to reduce the risks.
Training now is not what it was.

One comment on the hospital works.

When I work at my one of my local hospitals in their DB's I am not allowed to do my own isolation, nor even open the DB cover!
Their electrical engineer comes along, we test, we isolate, we test, he locks off, issues a ptw then we work.
Following this the process is reversed.
SO as far as working live in a board goes, in my local area no chance!

That's fair enough Paul, if that's the Hospital Engineers procedures, then you follow them full stop!! It's a shame there isn't a National hospital code of practice, relating to working procedures, then everyone would know exactly where they stand. But alas it seems that every Hospital Engineer/manager has his own idea on these matters...

 

[netblindpaul]

Thing is E54 there is!
HTM's there are several relevant 00, & 06-01 & 02 come to mind, but there are a couple more IIRC.

 

[Guest123]

When I work at my one of my local hospitals in their DB's I am not allowed to do my own isolation, nor even open the DB cover!
Their electrical engineer comes along, we test, we isolate, we test, he locks off, issues a ptw then we work.
Following this the process is reversed.
SO as far as working live in a board goes, in my local area no chance!

All sounds very familiar Paul.

 

[Engineer54]

Thing is E54 there is!
HTM's there are several relevant 00, & 06-01 & 02 come to mind, but there are a couple more IIRC.

Perhaps someone should inform the Hospital Engineer at the OP's hospital then, as the electrician has been clearly told to work on the DB in a ''Live'' condition!!!

 

[jaresquire]

I work live sometimes on my own contracts due to my own laziness and liking decent lighting and a kettle working. I would not ask or even want anybody working for me to do the same and I would not do so if subbing to another company. The point of my earlier post is that while you would be very unlucky to be injured or die, it is extremely easy to cause a shutdown with almost any working.
Or maybe it's just me that does that?

 

[netblindpaul]

jaresquire,
You do realise that if you get injured doing this even though you are perhaps "the boss" or even a sole trader, if you survive HSE may well prosecute you for contravention of statue law!

 

[jaresquire]

Am well aware of the law, just a bit wild in my second childhood unk:

 

[ADW666]

Carrying out any work whilst 'live' will be against the electricity at work regs and so a shut down should and could be arranged.

Wrong! The EAWR Regs state the work should be "not Live" where pratical to do so, if it isnt practical, live working is permitted.

 

[Risteard]

Wrong! The EAWR Regs state the work should be "not Live" where pratical to do so, if it isnt practical, live working is permitted.

Not as simple as that. Not only must it be unreasonable in all the circumstances to work dead, it must ALSO be reasonable in all the circumstances to work live, and further precautions MUST be taken.