BOILER SERVICING -- Cleaning.

[slpjslpj]

Hi all,

Can a registered heating engineer perhaps chip in on this as well?

I found an older thread on this, but it's closed for discussion.

I fully understand that a safety inspection and a safety check certificate, is an entirely separate thing, and does not involve maintenance or repair of the boiler, unless something must be done to the boiler, in order to make it safe and operate properly. Rather, I am talking about an annual maintenance and service, separate to a safety inspection, that aims to ensure as much as possible that the boiler works properly, and as much as it is possible to do so, aims to prevent faults before they occur, or prevent them developing and getting worse, to the extent that the boiler finally stops working.

From my reading it seems that the word "service", can mean different things, depending who you ask. I assumed that it would always include cleaning, when the annual service is carried out. However I'm struggling to find a definitive answer.

My question is, ---
Should a combination boiler be cleaned internally, when it is 'serviced'? What should be cleaned, and why?

And I am referring to the boiler itself and it's wiring, not the internal pipework or plumbing.

Thank you all in advance.

 

[Octopus]

Best you post this on the plumbers forum!

 

[slpjslpj]

Hi Murdoch,

It's more of an electrical question than a plumbing question.

 

[davesparks]

Is it a gas, oil or electric boiler?

 

[snowhead]

My question is, ---
Should a combination boiler be cleaned internally, when it is 'serviced'? What should be cleaned, and why?

And I am referring to the boiler itself and it's wiring, not the internal pipework or plumbing.

The answer to that question is easy.
The minimum that should be done by the person carrying out the service on a gas appliance is to follow the manufacturers specific instructions for the model of boiler concerned.
Anything they do above and beyond that is for them to decide at the time.

As an example a random boiler manual, servicing starts at section 10;
https://www.baxi.co.uk/-/media/webs...mbi_installation_and_service_manual.pdf?la=en

 

[The Ghost]

Look at your contract. As for cleaning, what is there to clean? Why is it you ask anyway? An electrician can't go inside a boiler unless he is gas safe. The only thing you may be able to clean is a magnafilter or some similar item. But not usually included with a service. As I understand it, the annual service is to ensure safety.

 

[slpjslpj]

Hi,
The boiler is gas fired.

Thanks for that link to the Baxi instructions Snowhead, and for the answer that the manufactures instructions should be followed.

Very few service routines that I've looked at from a number of companies, seem to mention cleaning at all, and some engineers don't even think the burners should be cleaned every year.

There is a specific reason I'm asking. Electronics are sensitive to very small current flows. Excessive dust build up (dust that itself can become damp via condendsation) on the wiring and components on the circuit boards in the boiler, can cause the boiler exhibit faults. And as far as I can find, I'm yet to find a service engineer that thinks this dust should be removed during a service.

So I thought I'd ask on here to see what others think, particularly with respect to cleaning dust off the circuit boards and associated wiring.

 

[slpjslpj]

Actually it is my understanding that an electrician can do certain work inside a boiler cover, but NOT anything that involves gas, and they can't change the main circuit board, because that would involve checking/resetting the gas burner pressure. And that comes from the GasSafe Register website. "who-can-legally-work-on-a-gas-appliance-factsheet".

But I'm not asking about that. I assume that a Gas service engineer these days is also qualified in Electrics and to some extent electronics too.

Yes, I have indeed read the service contracts, and they are vaugue to say the least.

Also, an annual service, is a distinct item separate to a safety check. One is a safety inspection, and one is service.

It may be the case that a certificate can't be granted because the appliance isn't safe, because it requires a service or a repair. But if on inspection only, all the test results are as they should be, then there won't be a requirement for a service, in order to issue a pass for safety. But that does not mean the boiler does not need a service.
I thought servicing is as much about prevention as it is about fixing faults, and that's certainly how they are advertised and sold.

 

[davesparks]

I assume that a Gas service engineer these days is also qualified in Electrics and to some extent electronics too.

The person who services a domestic boiler almost definitely won’t be an engineer, they’ll be a plumber who is qualified and registered to do gas work. They will probably advertise themselves as being engineers as it’s not a protected title so anyone can call themselves such.
And they are very rarely qualified in electrics and quite often haven’t got a clue about even the very basics of electrical work.

 

[slpjslpj]

Hi davesparks,

I confess I haven't followed what qualifications someone registered to service a boiler has to have. I know they have to have gas qualifications. But I assumed --- ( especially with all the latest fairly strict regulations around electrical installation, electrical regulations for secial situations such as a gas appliance(boiler) installed in a bathroom for example, and with modern applicances having so much more sophistacted electrical wiring, control, and electronics built into then ), ---- that the 'engineer' would have a pretty good knowledge of the electrical side of things too in order to be able to service it properly.

I guess that's a pretty bad assumption to make then. It's depressing to think some of the people servicing things like modern central heating boilers, don't actually understand fully how they work.

 

[PEG]

Hi,i agree with Daves sad assessment,and i am,an engineer (getting all Sparticus,now...)

Almost all gas boilers,will require at least an inspection,if not a physical cleaning,of the burner chamber,which will require careful removal,and careful and certified re-fitting,of sealing plates.

This is what puts it out of reach,of a DIY exercise,multiply that for a another party,multiply again,for payment.

Try and source a registered heating engiperson,who is familiar with your model of boiler,that way it will quicker,and he won't bend your panels,and shear off 3 screws,he didn't have to remove anyway...

 

[slpjslpj]

Hi peg,

Ok, thanks for that. Sounds like good advice.

 

[telectrix]

"engiperson"? .......is that a gender neutral engineer/engineeress?

 

[chris murphy]

Hi all,

Can a registered heating engineer perhaps chip in on this as well?

I found an older thread on this, but it's closed for discussion.

I fully understand that a safety inspection and a safety check certificate, is an entirely separate thing, and does not involve maintenance or repair of the boiler, unless something must be done to the boiler, in order to make it safe and operate properly. Rather, I am talking about an annual maintenance and service, separate to a safety inspection, that aims to ensure as much as possible that the boiler works properly, and as much as it is possible to do so, aims to prevent faults before they occur, or prevent them developing and getting worse, to the extent that the boiler finally stops working.

From my reading it seems that the word "service", can mean different things, depending who you ask. I assumed that it would always include cleaning, when the annual service is carried out. However I'm struggling to find a definitive answer.

My question is, ---
Should a combination boiler be cleaned internally, when it is 'serviced'? What should be cleaned, and why?

And I am referring to the boiler itself and it's wiring, not the internal pipework or plumbing.

Thank you all in advance.

Hello slpjslpj,

As other Members have stated the Servicing procedure for gas Boilers is specified in detail within the Manufacturers Installation and Servicing Instructions and in every case the Servicing details should include instructions for Cleaning both the Heat Exchanger and the Main Burner.

However I have never seen any mention of what You described regarding removal of dust from PCB`s etc. and unless there was an obvious `build up` of dust on the PCB etc. no Heating Engineer / Gas Engineer would ever even look at `Cleaning` the Electrical components.

IF You have a build up of dust on items such as the PCB and associated wiring on you Boiler I can only guess that you [or a previous owner] might have had some major Building works carried out in your Home which produced the dust that has permeated your Boiler `Electrics` which are within the Boiler casing but not in the Room Sealed [Combustion Chamber] area.

Boilers should always be covered up as much as possible with something like poly sheeting when Building work is being carried out [Boiler NOT used while covered] - especially if Angle Grinders / Disc Cutters / Kango`s etc. are being used as those Tools produce `excessive dust` - the Disc Cutters for example are not often used with Dust Extraction in my experience.


I have been a Heating Engineer / Gas Engineer for over 44 years and the only times that I have come across `Dust on the PCB` / `Boiler Electrics` was after Building works which had involved the use of the Tools described above.

As anyone who has ever had Building work done has experienced - Dust gets everywhere`.

If You do have `excessive / noticeable dust` on the Boiler PCB and associated Electrics You definitely should arrange for a Gas Safe Registered Gas Engineer / Heating Engineer to remove / vacuum it away as you are correct in thinking that `excessive dust` should not be covering the Boiler PCB and associated Electrics.

Under normal circumstances one would NOT find `excessive dust` on Boiler PCB`s and associated Electrics so a Boiler Service would not require `dust removal from the PCB and associated Electrics`.

Unless You ask for this dust removal from the Boiler PCB and `Electrics` it would never be an automatic part of the Boiler Servicing.

I hope that my comments are helpful.

Regards,

Chris

 

[slpjslpj]

Hi Chris,
Thanks for that answer, the comments are indeed helpful.

The boiler is in a bathroom, in a vented cupboard. It's been there for a considerable time, over 20 years. The inside of cupboard also gets what appears to be the same dust in it, and as you describe, I think this must have found it's way into interior of the casing. The inside of the cupboard is cleaned fairly regularly I believe, as the bottom half below the boiler is used for towels etc. The door to the cupboard is a full length louvered door, and there are side vents on cupboard wall, which allow for additional ventilation, but also make it easy for dust to enter too.

It's a very light-ish grey in colour, and definitely isnt building dust of any kind, as there hasn't been any building work or decorating of any kind done for over 10 years. My best guess now is that it's possibly talcum powder mixed with just regular house dust.

Anyway, my conern was that the dust being there indicated that the boiler may not have been serviced properly. My thinking was, if the pcb dust wasn't removed, then maybe other things weren't done either. And as I have no way of knowing how long the dust has been there, or how long it took to collect, I have no way of knowing if other aspects of the servicing haven't been done for the same length of time.

The other thread that I referenced in my first post in this thread, refers to a Survey that found a number of big name companies weren't doing boiler services properly. So me being a bit of an old cynic anyway, ----- :-

My background is electrical/electronic. If I opened up any electrical/electronic device and saw that kind and amount of dust, I'd automatically remove it, because over time, dust finds it's way into pot's and non soldered connections causing resistance, and/or if it gets damp, causes shorts.

But if as you say pcb dust removal is never usually done anyway, then I will do as you suggest, and ask specifically for it to be removed when the service is done.

Thanks again.

 

[chris murphy]

Hello again,

I completely understand your concerns about Dust on the PCB and associated Electrical components - especially as You have a background in Electrical / Electronics but I have to advise you that although I would try to remove any `excessive dust` that I either saw within a Gas Boiler / Gas Appliance or was made aware of - the fact that this has not been done on your Boiler is not a definite indicator that the Appliance has NOT been Serviced correctly.

As I mentioned in my previous message - a Gas Engineer / Heating Engineer would not be looking for dust on the PCB or associated Electrical components.

Your Boiler Cupboard description sounds like it might be acting like a `Dust Extractor` - actually pulling in dust from the rest of your Home - the full height Louvre door and additional side vents combined with the Heat convection produced by the Boiler could be causing `excessive dust` to enter the cupboard and then to enter the section of the Boiler casing where the PCB and associated Electrical components are located.

However as I am sure that You know - a Boiler which is 20 years old fitted in a cupboard will need the cupboard Ventilated even if it is `Room Sealed` - that is to Cool the Compartment / Cupboard to prevent the Boiler overheating the Air space which in turn could cause the Combustion Chamber seals to degrade and cause the products of combustion to enter the Room / Home - and that overheating of the Cupboard / within the Boiler casing could also create an environment temperature which could be higher than the Electrical components are designed to operate in.

The minimum amount of `Compartment ventilation` will have been specified in the Installation Instructions and that must not ever be reduced.

Boilers that are NOT `Room Sealed` - i.e. `Open Flued` and installed in a `Compartment` / Cupboard require Combustion ventilation and `Cooling ventilation`.

Again the minimum amount of ventilation at Low Level [Combustion ventilation] and High Level [Cooling ventilation] will have been specified in the Installation Instructions and very importantly the Ventilation MUST NOT ever be reduced below the specified minimum requirements as that could easily create a VERY Dangerous situation if there was not enough Combustion ventilation / Cooling ventilation.

Although I made the comments about the Louvre door and side vents possibly creating a `Dust Extractor` [dust being drawn into the cupboard] in combination with the Heat convection caused by the Heat produced by the Boiler I must caution You to NOT alter the Louvre door / ventilation without taking advice from the Gas Safe Registered Gas Engineer / Heating Engineer who you engage to do the next Boiler Service.

With regard to Gas Appliances not being Serviced correctly - Which Magazine [now online ?] carried out a Survey on this across the UK 2 or 3 years ago and the results were `frightening` !

I think that I remember a figure of only `3 out of 10` Boiler Engineers completed the minimum items that is necessary for a correct Service !

I tried to attach a `Boiler Service list` from Which that I believe was produced with `informal advice` from Gas Safe - it is intended to list the minimum checks - it is not a comprehensive Servicing schedule - and it does not even mention the use of a Combustion Analyser - however I could not upload it - I kept getting an Error message.

You should be able to find it online if you are interested.

Some of the details above may not apply to your Boiler - it is probably not `Open Flued` - but for possible future readers of this thread I wanted to just mention those points.

Good Luck in getting the Dust removed from your Boiler`s PCB and associated `Electrics` during the next and possibly future Services.

Regards,

Chris

 

[slpjslpj]

Hi Chris,
Sorry, I should have specified the boiler is RSF. I should also have added that the cupbpoard was installed around the boiler, after the boiler was installed, and was constructed to specifications over and above the minimum required by the manufacturer, as advised by the then Corgi engineer ( Corgi or whatever it was back then) who installed the boiler. A few years later, a BG engineer when he serviced the boiler, suggested the addition of additional side vents. He said it probably wasn't neccessary and that the cupboard was vell vented, but he thought it was a good idea to add one anyway. So I did.

I think your right about the cupboard pulling in dust. Which is why it needs cleaning regularly probably. It gets cleaned with attention to cleaning the slats in the louvre door to keep them free from dust. It hadn't occured to me, until I became aware of it, that the same dust might be getting into the boiler interior; -- But actually I think now with hindsight, that it's pretty obvious it would be. Assuming as I was that the wiring and pcb would always be cleaned of dust, I wondered just how well the rest of the boiler was being serviced. Now that I'm aware that most if not all engineers wouldn't remove the dust, I'm much less concerned about the servicing of the rest of the boiler.

However, that said, I did see that list of minimum service items, and I also read the results of the survey carried out by "which" in 2016.
Getting the Best Boiler Service - Which? - https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/boilers/article/getting-the-best-boiler-service

Given that those boiler services were carried out by the reputable big names, that's bad enough. But it wasn't that long ago, and one wonders just how much things have changed as a result. And since then, albeit anecdotal, it is very easy to find numerous customer reviews and comments, as recently as 24/36 hours ago,about extremely poor services and repairs, and even apparent blatant lies about what the servicing company claims to have done, -- up to the point of fabricating faults that seemingly can't be rectified, in order to sell a replacement boiler. Of course some of those customer reviews will be enturely false, and even malicious for one reason or another. But I'm of the opinion that they are not all wrong or unfair. Hence I'll admit to my thinking -- rightly or wrongly, -- being influenced to some extent by that survey and those results.

I do still though think that dust on electronic circuits should be removed. A modern device is chock full of electronics these days. Boilers are modern electronic devices as much as they are fossil fuel burners. The current flows in electronic devices can be as low as in the order of milli and pico amps. As well as insulating or creating shorts, dust can also cause static voltages that can easily induce current flows that can disrupt how electronic devices behave. But perhaps they now have a 'sealed' container around the more sensitive electrical/electronic parts, that prevents the ingress of dust. Or the designs are such as to negate the potential effects of dust, better connectors, and joints etc. So it may not be an issue at all.

I also recognise another aspect to this. Whilst my boiler is over 20 years old, I read that today I would be extremely lucky to get the same life from a modern boiler. That can't be because it's not possible to create a boiler with a 20 year minimum life expectancy. If true, it must be because they are not intended to last that long. Also, as with many items, servicing is expensive, and service intervals are being extended and even eliminated as much as possible. Some modern devices are even self servicing and repairing. I can well imagine modern boilers becoming 'intelligent' devices that 'self service' in the future. And maybe modern boiler service routines already include/anticipate this. The future robot in this, probably won't be a visiting android as such. It will quite possibly be a device built into the boiler, that monitors, services and repairs, on a real time ongoing basis.

I don't have a modern boiler, so maybe I need an 'old' engineer. lol.

 

[chris murphy]

Hello Pete,

Thanks for your reply and for describing the effects that Dust can have on PCB`s and other Electrical components and wiring connections.

I am sure that the information will have been `New` / unthought-of by most Members regarding the possible detrimental effects on `Boiler Electrics` and that would also apply to most Heating Engineers / Gas Engineers apart from those who had actually experienced `excessive dust ingress` on Boilers.

As I described in an earlier message to You that would usually have occurred when Building work had been carried out at the property using Angle Grinders / Disc Cutters / Kango`s etc. and the Boiler had not been `wrapped` / covered up - as should other Gas appliances.

Even then if they realised that the Dust should be removed from the PCB etc. they would almost certainly not know the exact `Electrical reasons` why that should be done - as You described - and some Boiler Engineers would be reluctant to be `poking a vacuum cleaner nozzle into the Electrics`.

I would be very interested to hear a conversation between You and a Boiler Manufacturer Technical Department Engineer about this subject - I wonder if they would know the detrimental effects that Dust can cause on PCB`s and other Electrical components / connections ?

However as I mentioned in a previous message - under normal circumstances `excessive dust on Boiler Electrical components` is not something that Boiler Engineers / Gas Engineers find during Servicing - so perhaps the subject has never been encountered enough to have been brought to their attention ?

With regard to getting your Boiler Serviced correctly - unfortunately I am sure that the Which Survey does reflect exactly what happens - hardly any / if any Gas Engineer / Boiler Engineer ever carry's out a Service following the Manufacturers Servicing Instructions exactly - they / their Company do not allow enough time for the various tasks to be done - including items to be checked / removed & cleaned / refitted.

Too much reliance is now put onto the use of Combustion Analysers / Flue Gas Analysers with many Companies specifying that if the Analyser results are within the parameters of `Efficient / Safe Combustion` then NO `Cleaning` / dismantling of the Boiler is required - that is NOT a `Service`.

However - Boiler Manufacturers do NOT state that - their Servicing Instructions should be followed with every item attended to - this sometimes requires the Engineer to have washers which are specified to be replaced when for example the Main Burner is removed for cleaning - most of the time they do not have the `Burner pipe union washer` [not manufacturers description] so they don`t remove the Burner for cleaning - not removing the Burner almost certainly means that the Heat exchanger would also not be cleaned.

That would be either because there was not enough room within the Combustion chamber [Burner not removed] or because they did not want to clean the Heat Exchanger above the Burner.

Condensing Boilers have so many Electronic components that there are now far more `parts` to malfunction than there were in Boilers that were manufactured pre 2004 - whatever the Manufacturers state about `reliability` modern Boilers are definitely more susceptible to Breakdown and often the `Parts` are far more expensive than parts for pre 2004 Boilers.

I would recommend You / all Members try to get your Boiler Manufacturer`s own / accredited Service & Repair Engineers to Service or Repair your Boiler - NOT a Company from Yellow Pages or online adverts.

Although they would have a certain amount of Services and Repairs to carry out in the day I feel that there should be a more `Professional approach` from them as the Manufacturers representatives - and more specific knowledge of your Boiler - and for Repairs there should be no `Fit it and hope` approach to diagnosing the fault - also I would hope that they had quicker access to any Parts required ?

I hope that I have been of some help with my messages Pete - Good Luck with your Boiler I hope that it gives you many more years of Heating & Hot Water.

Regards,

Chris

 

[chris murphy]

Hello again slpjslpj,

Sorry for addressing You as `Pete` in my last message.

I was corresponding with a friend - Pete - just before writing my message to you and accidentally wrote `Hello Pete` to begin my message to You.

Regards,

Chris

 

[slpjslpj]

Hi Chris,

Actually my name is peter so a bit of a coincidence there.

I'm pretty sure manufacturers must know all there is to know about the effects of dust or anything else that could alter the electrical characteristics in and around the pcbs. But I guess it must be the case as you say, that experience has mostly proven dust for example, not to have been a problem. Otherwise I assume there would definitely be a section in the service manuals that specifically states that dust and dirt should be removed from the pcbs and other areas where it could cause a problem.

That said, I wonder how many pcbs may have been replaced, because a fault was traced to them, but that fault was in fact due to dirt causing stray current flow or poor connections? If nobody removes the dust and or cleans connections before replacing the circuit boards, then unless the boards are returned to a w/shop for testing, and are instead thrown away, nobody knows if a board really needed replacing.

You mention that a lot of services, are in fact just tests at various points, and not real services at all. And that's interesting, because I've read numerous comments in various places, that say if you don't have your bolier serviced, it won't last very long. But you can imagine a situation where a new boiler is installed. Every year for 15/20 years, an annual 'service' is performed, that consists of tests and inspection only. Every year the tests meet the specs in the manual, and nothing else is ever done to the boiler, except maybe every few years someone cleans the burners. I actually know someone with an old boiler, -- not sure of the brand -- that's also over 20 years old. I think it's been serviced (whatever that entailed) only a couple/three times. It's never broken down and it's still going. Maybe that's pretty rare, and maybe just very lucky. But maybe it also lends some credence to those who say things like, "don't fix it until it breaks". And maybe that's why some services consist of little more than just testing and inspection.

But maybe, if a boiler was serviced properly and fully, and to the manufacturers instructions, maybe instead of lasting 15/20 years, they'd last 30 years. Not something the industry might welcome, as they'd sell fewer boilers. Of course, new technology is a good reason to renew a boiler as they are more efficient and cheaper to run in fuel terms, and I guess also the environment has to be taken into account too.

Personally I like to have things regularly serviced, because I've always liked to get the longest possible life out of things. Hopefully, it's been money well spent. But I am going to change who does the annual service. Instead of a contract with large company, in future I'm going to use a local chap with many years experience and an old school approach.

Hopefully my boiler will keep going for a good while yet. But just so I'd know the costs, I got a quote to replace the boiler. It seems that for a little over 2000 quid, I can get a new Worcester installed, that comes with a full 10 years warranty. I'd assume that if it's warrantied for 10 years, I should get a considerable bit more than that from it. So when my boiler does finally start showing faults, I guess that will be the way to go. Either that, or move to the deep south of Spain and live in the Sun. .

Thanks again.

 

[chris murphy]

Hello Peter,

What a coincidence regarding my error in addressing You as `Pete` in the previous message.

I am definitely a proponent of regular Servicing and although I have never worked as a `Boiler Engineer` carrying out Servicing and Repairs I have always Serviced my own Boiler and Boilers for Family members and good Friends.

The first Gas Boiler that I installed in my existing Home was a Potterton Netaheat Electronic [Cast Iron Heat Exchanger with large waterways] - that Boiler was never run without there being a `double dose` of Fernox MB1 Corrosion Inhibitor in the Heating system and I Serviced it correctly every year.

That Boiler was still working perfectly well after 29 years and would probably have lasted another 10 if I had not installed a new Boiler in a different position during some Building works to reconfigure my Home`s layout - although most `Parts` such as the Gas Control Valve are no longer available unless `second hand` and found online.

I had to replace the Netaheat`s Gas Control Valve after about 24 years as it started making a vibration noise and I replaced the PCB / Spark Generator / Flame Monitor after about 26 years.

About every 5 years I also made a point of Draining the Heating system - refilling with a `Cleansing chemical` - various manufacturers - Fernox / Sentinel / Grace Dearborn etc. - running the Heating for a couple of days - then Draining the system and Flushing with clean water - then refilling adding 2 x 4 Litres of Fernox MB1 Corrosion Inhibitor.

Because of doing that regularly from when the system was installed I know that my Home`s Heating system Boiler / Radiators and Pipework is as clean as it could be.

Although as a Heating Engineer / Gas Engineer `professionally` I was a proponent of `Energy Efficiency` and we had to pass an Exam on this back in about 2004 prior to Condensing Boilers being specified as the ONLY approved Gas Boilers to be in- I was in no hurry to install a Condensing Boiler in my own Home while my Potterton Netaheat Electronic was `working perfectly` - although `very inefficient` in terms of Energy Efficiency.

The new Boiler that I installed is a Baxi Boiler [ Baxi / Potterton are from the same Manufacturer / Company] with a Cast Iron Heat Exchanger and average sized waterways [for a modern cast iron heat exchanger] I doubt very much that I will have anything like 24 plus years before I have to replace a `Major component` !

If You do replace your Boiler with a Worcester or any other Boiler that has anything like a 10 or 5 year Warranty you MUST familiarise yourself with the exact `Terms & Conditions`.

Can I assume that you are aware that the Warranty is dependant on `Correct Installation` [including Flushing the Heating system] and Yearly Documented Servicing.

To adhere to the terms of the Warranty I would strongly advise that you should use the Manufacturers authorised Service Engineers and obtain yearly Invoices that actually detail the Servicing in writing.

You cannot have `Too much proof` that you have adhered to the Terms & Conditions of the 10 year Warranty.

Regards,

Chris

 

[chris murphy]

Hello again Peter,

I had a few problems when writing and posting my previous message - I kept being interrupted by a Forum Error message which did not specify what the `Error` was - and although I tried to ensure that all I wrote was posted I have noticed a slight omission in one of the paragraphs - some words are missing - here is how the paragraph should have read - the missing words are in Blue text:

Although as a Heating Engineer / Gas Engineer `professionally` I was a proponent of `Energy Efficiency` and we had to pass an Exam on this back in about 2004 prior to Condensing Boilers being specified as the ONLY approved Gas Boilers to be installed in the UK - I was in no hurry to install a Condensing Boiler in my own Home while my Potterton Netaheat Electronic was `working perfectly` - although `very inefficient` in terms of Energy Efficiency.

Regards,

Chris

 

[static zap]

Hello again Peter,

I had a few problems when writing and posting my previous message - I kept being interrupted by a Forum Error message which did not specify what the `Error` was

Were you checking ..your post with
More-Options , Preview Button ?
(Double clicking Back-page ..seems to do it for me )
(Once I have a greyed-out-Entry to go to in Reply box !)

 

[slpjslpj]

Hi Chris,

I guess that illustrates the important points. If you know what you are doing, and do it properly, you can make any well designed and made machine last a very long time. And when it does have a fault, if you can get the parts, you can repair it. Almost indefinitely -- up to the point of "Trigger's broom". New head and new handle, but the broom is years old. .

Good point. I hadn't studied the terms and conditions of a new boiler with a 10 year warranty. It may be that the install cost is low, but the required service regime pushes the price up. That being the case, subject to parts, my old boiler may be worth keeping, as I expect to sell the house within the next few years anyway. I'll have to look more closely at the full costs involved, and if it is the case that I'd end up paying for a repair in the warranty period, because it's almost impossible to adhere to the terms and conditions.

You mention flushing. Actually I think one of my radiators needs flushing. I've bled it repeatedly, but it gets hot at the top, and remains quite cool in the bottom section, to a few inches up. It's on the ground floor. 7ft long and 16 inches tall. I'm wondering if the bottom is partly clogged. It's not that old, so when the warm weather gets here I'm going to take if off and put a hose pipe on it. I've also looked at chemical flushing, but there seems to be a variety of opinion. Some say only a professional power flush works, whilst others say adding your own chemicals will work. What's the truth? To me, the power flush sounds good, but it's expensive. Whereas the chemicals you can use yourself are a lot cheaper, so I think it may be worth a try with that first.

What's the opinion here?

Thanks

 

[chris murphy]

Hi Chris,

I guess that illustrates the important points. If you know what you are doing, and do it properly, you can make any well designed and made machine last a very long time. And when it does have a fault, if you can get the parts, you can repair it. Almost indefinitely -- up to the point of "Trigger's broom". New head and new handle, but the broom is years old. .

Good point. I hadn't studied the terms and conditions of a new boiler with a 10 year warranty. It may be that the install cost is low, but the required service regime pushes the price up. That being the case, subject to parts, my old boiler may be worth keeping, as I expect to sell the house within the next few years anyway. I'll have to look more closely at the full costs involved, and if it is the case that I'd end up paying for a repair in the warranty period, because it's almost impossible to adhere to the terms and conditions.

You mention flushing. Actually I think one of my radiators needs flushing. I've bled it repeatedly, but it gets hot at the top, and remains quite cool in the bottom section, to a few inches up. It's on the ground floor. 7ft long and 16 inches tall. I'm wondering if the bottom is partly clogged. It's not that old, so when the warm weather gets here I'm going to take if off and put a hose pipe on it. I've also looked at chemical flushing, but there seems to be a variety of opinion. Some say only a professional power flush works, whilst others say adding your own chemicals will work. What's the truth? To me, the power flush sounds good, but it's expensive. Whereas the chemicals you can use yourself are a lot cheaper, so I think it may be worth a try with that first.

What's the opinion here?

Thanks

Hello again Peter,

Thanks for your comments on what I wrote about my Potterton Netaheat Electronic Boiler - I liked the reminder about `Triggers Broom` - I remember it being very amusing.

If I were going to be selling my House in the next couple of years and I had a 20 year old Boiler I would probably not replace it unless I had to because it malfunctioned and was `not economically viable to repair` / parts were obsolete.

But although I am not generally a pessimist I would expect that when it did `Breakdown` it would be during the Coldest weather / at the most inconvenient time !

With regard to `Flushing` - I would definitely recommend a `DIY Clean & Flush` if You are able to do it yourself - before even considering a `PowerFlush`.

Please ensure that You buy a System Cleanser specified for Older Systems - definitely NOT an `Acidic Cleanser`.

I recommend Sentinel System Cleanser X400 or Fernox F3 - here is a link to a Sentinel webpage related to their Cleansing Chemicals:

How To: Choose the Right Central Heating Cleaning Chemical | Sentinel - https://www.sentinelprotects.com/uk/support/guides/how-choose-right-central-heating-cleaning-chemical

There should be `Dosing details` somewhere on that webpage - however if You see a reference to `1 Litre dose for Up to 10 Radiators` - that `guesstimate` means 10 SINGLE panel Radiators = approximately 100 Litres of system water.

If You have Double Panel Radiators each counts as 2 Radiators for rough calculating the Dosage of the Chemical.

The cost of the System Cleanser and your time will be VERY much cheaper than even the lowest priced PowerFlush and if you feel capable it should be beneficial.

However before you try a `DIY Clean & Flush` I would recommend that You remove the Radiator that you suspect has a layer of Sludge in the bottom and try to clear most of it by using a hose - that should help to prevent most of the Sludge in that Radiator being moved around the system when the System Cleanser Chemical `loosens` the deposits.

I should mention that if most of your Radiators and Pipework are also about 20 years old there could be a possibility that `Sludge` might move from somewhere within the system and cause a circulation problem - which is why I recommend removing and flushing out the Radiator.

If that did happen you would probably either have to engage a Heating Engineer to find and clear the blockage or arrange for a PowerFlush to be done.

As I am sure that You would know when adding the Cleaning Chemical you must ensure that it gets into the circulation system - not just poured into the Heating system F&E Tank.

If you have an Feed & Expansion Tank - you will need to drain off enough water from the system to ensure that the Chemical when poured into the F&E Tank and the water turned back on [Tank Mains supply] completely enters the circulation pipework.

After running the Heating system / Cleansing Chemical for the recommended period of time - perhaps 5 - 7 days the system must be fully drained down and then carry out a couple of `Fill and Drains` - filling the system - running for perhaps an Hour / until Hot and draining down again.

Each time that you do that please ensure that the Boiler is NOT HOT before you introduce cold water back into the system - i.e. IF you drain the system while Hot you must definitely NOT start refilling for the `Fill & Drain` while the Boiler Heat Exchanger is still Hot.

You might get Members comments about my `Instructions` regarding that one would not usually run a Boiler / System that did not have a system Corrosion Inhibitor added - however on your 20 year old Boiler it would not have any detrimental effect for a couple of Hours regarding for example `an additional build up of limescale within the Heat Exchanger` would not occur.

The Sentinel X400 and Fernox F3 Cleansers are also available in a `Mastic type tube` for `Injecting` into a Radiator vent or with an adaptor into a Combi / Sealed system Filling Loop connection - there is usually a `premium` on the price for that convenience which adds up if for example 3 tubes are required.

I hope that this information / my opinions are useful Peter - it would be great to see an Update from you perhaps later in the Year after you have tried Cleaning and Flushing your Heating system.

Please excuse the Bold and Red sections - those comments are VERY Important and I need to emphasise them not just for You but for other / future readers.

Regards,

Chris

 

[chris murphy]

Were you checking ..your post with
More-Options , Preview Button ?
(Double clicking Back-page ..seems to do it for me )
(Once I have a greyed-out-Entry to go to in Reply box !)

Hello static zap,

Thanks for your reply.

No - I was just writing my message - You might have noticed that my replies have been VERY long - I thought when the Error messages began that there had been a `Text Limit` imposed but as I was able to close the Error message and continue I realised that was not the case - however as I got about 6 or 8 of them during typing my message something must have been triggering the Error messages.

Thanks again for you interest.

Regards,

Chris

 

[chris murphy]

Hello again Peter,

Thanks for your comments on what I wrote about my Potterton Netaheat Electronic Boiler - I liked the reminder about `Triggers Broom` - I remember it being very amusing.

If I were going to be selling my House in the next couple of years and I had a 20 year old Boiler I would probably not replace it unless I had to because it malfunctioned and was `not economically viable to repair` / parts were obsolete.

But although I am not generally a pessimist I would expect that when it did `Breakdown` it would be during the Coldest weather / at the most inconvenient time !

With regard to `Flushing` - I would definitely recommend a `DIY Clean & Flush` if You are able to do it yourself - before even considering a `PowerFlush`.

Please ensure that You buy a System Cleanser specified for Older Systems - definitely NOT an `Acidic Cleanser`.

I recommend Sentinel System Cleanser X400 or Fernox F3 - here is a link to a Sentinel webpage related to their Cleansing Chemicals:

How To: Choose the Right Central Heating Cleaning Chemical | Sentinel - https://www.sentinelprotects.com/uk/support/guides/how-choose-right-central-heating-cleaning-chemical

There should be `Dosing details` somewhere on that webpage - however if You see a reference to `1 Litre dose for Up to 10 Radiators` - that `guesstimate` means 10 SINGLE panel Radiators = approximately 100 Litres of system water.

If You have Double Panel Radiators each counts as 2 Radiators for rough calculating the Dosage of the Chemical.

The cost of the System Cleanser and your time will be VERY much cheaper than even the lowest priced PowerFlush and if you feel capable it should be beneficial.

However before you try a `DIY Clean & Flush` I would recommend that You remove the Radiator that you suspect has a layer of Sludge in the bottom and try to clear most of it by using a hose - that should help to prevent most of the Sludge in that Radiator being moved around the system when the System Cleanser Chemical `loosens` the deposits.

I should mention that if most of your Radiators and Pipework are also about 20 years old there could be a possibility that `Sludge` might move from somewhere within the system and cause a circulation problem - which is why I recommend removing and flushing out the Radiator.

If that did happen you would probably either have to engage a Heating Engineer to find and clear the blockage or arrange for a PowerFlush to be done.

As I am sure that You would know when adding the Cleaning Chemical you must ensure that it gets into the circulation system - not just poured into the Heating system F&E Tank.

If you have an Feed & Expansion Tank - you will need to drain off enough water from the system to ensure that the Chemical when poured into the F&E Tank and the water turned back on [Tank Mains supply] completely enters the circulation pipework.

After running the Heating system / Cleansing Chemical for the recommended period of time - perhaps 5 - 7 days the system must be fully drained down and then carry out a couple of `Fill and Drains` - filling the system - running for perhaps an Hour / until Hot and draining down again.

Each time that you do that please ensure that the Boiler is NOT HOT before you introduce cold water back into the system - i.e. IF you drain the system while Hot you must definitely NOT start refilling for the `Fill & Drain` while the Boiler Heat Exchanger is still Hot.

You might get Members comments about my `Instructions` regarding that one would not usually run a Boiler / System that did not have a system Corrosion Inhibitor added - however on your 20 year old Boiler it would not have any detrimental effect for a couple of Hours regarding for example `an additional build up of limescale within the Heat Exchanger` would not occur.

The Sentinel X400 and Fernox F3 Cleansers are also available in a `Mastic type tube` for `Injecting` into a Radiator vent or with an adaptor into a Combi / Sealed system Filling Loop connection - there is usually a `premium` on the price for that convenience which adds up if for example 3 tubes are required.


I hope that this information / my opinions are useful Peter - it would be great to see an Update from you perhaps later in the Year after you have tried Cleaning and Flushing your Heating system.

Please excuse the Bold and Red sections - those comments are VERY Important and I need to emphasise them not just for You but for other / future readers.

Regards,

Chris

Hello Peter,

I was rushing slightly when typing my previous message and I forgot to add this paragraph:

When You fill the Heating system finally after the `Fill / Run & Drain` Flushing [after draining the Cleansing Chemical] you must add a Corrosion Inhibitor Chemical - Sentinal or Fernox - to continue to protect the system from further Corrosion / Limescale production etc.

Dose as I mentioned for the Cleansing Chemical regarding Double Panel Radiators equating to 2 Radiators for Chemical amount rough calculation - if you get `Fernox MB1` Liquid it comes in 4 Litre containers - I recommend at least 2 x 4 Litres for the `average system` - more if your system is larger than 10 or 12 Double panel Radiators.

Introduce the Inhibitor to the F&E Tank at the start of the final filling process.

Sorry for that omission in my other message.

Regards,

Chris

 

[slpjslpj]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for that very comprehensive reply. I'll print that off and digest it.

One quick question. I see there is also an X800 vesrion that claims to do the job in a couple of hours even used manually instead of a powerflush.

Would that be safe and effective to use?

Thanks.

 

[chris murphy]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for that very comprehensive reply. I'll print that off and digest it.

One quick question. I see there is also an X800 vesrion that claims to do the job in a couple of hours even used manually instead of a powerflush.

Would that be safe and effective to use?

Thanks.

Hello again Peter,

I obviously know about the Sentinel X800 `Fast Acting` System Cleanser - but I did not mention it because I would be wary of any `Fast Acting` Chemical for use in a 20 year old Heating system.

Although it is stated in the product factsheet to not be an `Acidic Cleanser` something in the chemical causes it to be `Fast Acting`.

The problem with `Super Cleansers` - even the `Non Acidic` formulas - especially on a system that is 20 years old is that sometimes they clean too well - causing small leaks to appear where corrosion had been `sealing` the point of the leak.

I would advise You to telephone Sentinel Products Technical Helpline - the main Company number is 01928 704 330 - and ask for their opinion about using the Sentinel X800 in your 20 year old Heating system.

IF the X800 was such a `Universal Super Cleanser` / O.K. for ALL types and ages of Heating systems / `Cleans systems in as little as an Hour`- Heating Engineers would have no use for any other Sentinel Chemical Cleansers.

Of course You could `take a chance` on using the Sentinel X800 and it might work well on your Heating system and not cause any leaks.

As I previously advised - You should definitely remove the Radiator that you suspect has a layer of Sludge and try to flush it out using a Hosepipe.

I did not mention refitting it afterwards in my previous message - but you should refit the Radiator after flushing it out [and refill it] - before using the system Cleansing Chemical [whichever one you choose].

Having done that the Sludge in that Radiator will not be there to be moved around the system during the Cleansing / Filling & Draining processes.

I would be interested to see an update on what You decide to use / what Sentinel Helpline say - and perhaps after you carry out the Cleaning & Flushing etc.

Regards,

Chris

 

[telectrix]

a bit off topic, but back in the 70's and 80's, my core business was \t|V repairs. the dust that accumulated on the PCBs was massive, due to the electro static attraction with up to 25kV floating round. a soft paint brush and a vac soon sorted that. done usually with the set switched on so i could see if anything stopped working while cleaning. however, the dust rarely caused any problems.