BOILER SERVICING -- Cleaning.

[chris murphy]

Hello Peter,

What a coincidence regarding my error in addressing You as `Pete` in the previous message.

I am definitely a proponent of regular Servicing and although I have never worked as a `Boiler Engineer` carrying out Servicing and Repairs I have always Serviced my own Boiler and Boilers for Family members and good Friends.

The first Gas Boiler that I installed in my existing Home was a Potterton Netaheat Electronic [Cast Iron Heat Exchanger with large waterways] - that Boiler was never run without there being a `double dose` of Fernox MB1 Corrosion Inhibitor in the Heating system and I Serviced it correctly every year.

That Boiler was still working perfectly well after 29 years and would probably have lasted another 10 if I had not installed a new Boiler in a different position during some Building works to reconfigure my Home`s layout - although most `Parts` such as the Gas Control Valve are no longer available unless `second hand` and found online.

I had to replace the Netaheat`s Gas Control Valve after about 24 years as it started making a vibration noise and I replaced the PCB / Spark Generator / Flame Monitor after about 26 years.

About every 5 years I also made a point of Draining the Heating system - refilling with a `Cleansing chemical` - various manufacturers - Fernox / Sentinel / Grace Dearborn etc. - running the Heating for a couple of days - then Draining the system and Flushing with clean water - then refilling adding 2 x 4 Litres of Fernox MB1 Corrosion Inhibitor.

Because of doing that regularly from when the system was installed I know that my Home`s Heating system Boiler / Radiators and Pipework is as clean as it could be.

Although as a Heating Engineer / Gas Engineer `professionally` I was a proponent of `Energy Efficiency` and we had to pass an Exam on this back in about 2004 prior to Condensing Boilers being specified as the ONLY approved Gas Boilers to be in- I was in no hurry to install a Condensing Boiler in my own Home while my Potterton Netaheat Electronic was `working perfectly` - although `very inefficient` in terms of Energy Efficiency.

The new Boiler that I installed is a Baxi Boiler [ Baxi / Potterton are from the same Manufacturer / Company] with a Cast Iron Heat Exchanger and average sized waterways [for a modern cast iron heat exchanger] I doubt very much that I will have anything like 24 plus years before I have to replace a `Major component` !

If You do replace your Boiler with a Worcester or any other Boiler that has anything like a 10 or 5 year Warranty you MUST familiarise yourself with the exact `Terms & Conditions`.

Can I assume that you are aware that the Warranty is dependant on `Correct Installation` [including Flushing the Heating system] and Yearly Documented Servicing.

To adhere to the terms of the Warranty I would strongly advise that you should use the Manufacturers authorised Service Engineers and obtain yearly Invoices that actually detail the Servicing in writing.

You cannot have `Too much proof` that you have adhered to the Terms & Conditions of the 10 year Warranty.

Regards,

Chris

 

[chris murphy]

Hello again Peter,

I had a few problems when writing and posting my previous message - I kept being interrupted by a Forum Error message which did not specify what the `Error` was - and although I tried to ensure that all I wrote was posted I have noticed a slight omission in one of the paragraphs - some words are missing - here is how the paragraph should have read - the missing words are in Blue text:

Although as a Heating Engineer / Gas Engineer `professionally` I was a proponent of `Energy Efficiency` and we had to pass an Exam on this back in about 2004 prior to Condensing Boilers being specified as the ONLY approved Gas Boilers to be installed in the UK - I was in no hurry to install a Condensing Boiler in my own Home while my Potterton Netaheat Electronic was `working perfectly` - although `very inefficient` in terms of Energy Efficiency.

Regards,

Chris

 

[static zap]

Hello again Peter,

I had a few problems when writing and posting my previous message - I kept being interrupted by a Forum Error message which did not specify what the `Error` was

Were you checking ..your post with
More-Options , Preview Button ?
(Double clicking Back-page ..seems to do it for me )
(Once I have a greyed-out-Entry to go to in Reply box !)

 

[slpjslpj]

Hi Chris,

I guess that illustrates the important points. If you know what you are doing, and do it properly, you can make any well designed and made machine last a very long time. And when it does have a fault, if you can get the parts, you can repair it. Almost indefinitely -- up to the point of "Trigger's broom". New head and new handle, but the broom is years old. .

Good point. I hadn't studied the terms and conditions of a new boiler with a 10 year warranty. It may be that the install cost is low, but the required service regime pushes the price up. That being the case, subject to parts, my old boiler may be worth keeping, as I expect to sell the house within the next few years anyway. I'll have to look more closely at the full costs involved, and if it is the case that I'd end up paying for a repair in the warranty period, because it's almost impossible to adhere to the terms and conditions.

You mention flushing. Actually I think one of my radiators needs flushing. I've bled it repeatedly, but it gets hot at the top, and remains quite cool in the bottom section, to a few inches up. It's on the ground floor. 7ft long and 16 inches tall. I'm wondering if the bottom is partly clogged. It's not that old, so when the warm weather gets here I'm going to take if off and put a hose pipe on it. I've also looked at chemical flushing, but there seems to be a variety of opinion. Some say only a professional power flush works, whilst others say adding your own chemicals will work. What's the truth? To me, the power flush sounds good, but it's expensive. Whereas the chemicals you can use yourself are a lot cheaper, so I think it may be worth a try with that first.

What's the opinion here?

Thanks

 

[chris murphy]

Hi Chris,

I guess that illustrates the important points. If you know what you are doing, and do it properly, you can make any well designed and made machine last a very long time. And when it does have a fault, if you can get the parts, you can repair it. Almost indefinitely -- up to the point of "Trigger's broom". New head and new handle, but the broom is years old. .

Good point. I hadn't studied the terms and conditions of a new boiler with a 10 year warranty. It may be that the install cost is low, but the required service regime pushes the price up. That being the case, subject to parts, my old boiler may be worth keeping, as I expect to sell the house within the next few years anyway. I'll have to look more closely at the full costs involved, and if it is the case that I'd end up paying for a repair in the warranty period, because it's almost impossible to adhere to the terms and conditions.

You mention flushing. Actually I think one of my radiators needs flushing. I've bled it repeatedly, but it gets hot at the top, and remains quite cool in the bottom section, to a few inches up. It's on the ground floor. 7ft long and 16 inches tall. I'm wondering if the bottom is partly clogged. It's not that old, so when the warm weather gets here I'm going to take if off and put a hose pipe on it. I've also looked at chemical flushing, but there seems to be a variety of opinion. Some say only a professional power flush works, whilst others say adding your own chemicals will work. What's the truth? To me, the power flush sounds good, but it's expensive. Whereas the chemicals you can use yourself are a lot cheaper, so I think it may be worth a try with that first.

What's the opinion here?

Thanks

Hello again Peter,

Thanks for your comments on what I wrote about my Potterton Netaheat Electronic Boiler - I liked the reminder about `Triggers Broom` - I remember it being very amusing.

If I were going to be selling my House in the next couple of years and I had a 20 year old Boiler I would probably not replace it unless I had to because it malfunctioned and was `not economically viable to repair` / parts were obsolete.

But although I am not generally a pessimist I would expect that when it did `Breakdown` it would be during the Coldest weather / at the most inconvenient time !

With regard to `Flushing` - I would definitely recommend a `DIY Clean & Flush` if You are able to do it yourself - before even considering a `PowerFlush`.

Please ensure that You buy a System Cleanser specified for Older Systems - definitely NOT an `Acidic Cleanser`.

I recommend Sentinel System Cleanser X400 or Fernox F3 - here is a link to a Sentinel webpage related to their Cleansing Chemicals:

How To: Choose the Right Central Heating Cleaning Chemical | Sentinel - https://www.sentinelprotects.com/uk/support/guides/how-choose-right-central-heating-cleaning-chemical

There should be `Dosing details` somewhere on that webpage - however if You see a reference to `1 Litre dose for Up to 10 Radiators` - that `guesstimate` means 10 SINGLE panel Radiators = approximately 100 Litres of system water.

If You have Double Panel Radiators each counts as 2 Radiators for rough calculating the Dosage of the Chemical.

The cost of the System Cleanser and your time will be VERY much cheaper than even the lowest priced PowerFlush and if you feel capable it should be beneficial.

However before you try a `DIY Clean & Flush` I would recommend that You remove the Radiator that you suspect has a layer of Sludge in the bottom and try to clear most of it by using a hose - that should help to prevent most of the Sludge in that Radiator being moved around the system when the System Cleanser Chemical `loosens` the deposits.

I should mention that if most of your Radiators and Pipework are also about 20 years old there could be a possibility that `Sludge` might move from somewhere within the system and cause a circulation problem - which is why I recommend removing and flushing out the Radiator.

If that did happen you would probably either have to engage a Heating Engineer to find and clear the blockage or arrange for a PowerFlush to be done.

As I am sure that You would know when adding the Cleaning Chemical you must ensure that it gets into the circulation system - not just poured into the Heating system F&E Tank.

If you have an Feed & Expansion Tank - you will need to drain off enough water from the system to ensure that the Chemical when poured into the F&E Tank and the water turned back on [Tank Mains supply] completely enters the circulation pipework.

After running the Heating system / Cleansing Chemical for the recommended period of time - perhaps 5 - 7 days the system must be fully drained down and then carry out a couple of `Fill and Drains` - filling the system - running for perhaps an Hour / until Hot and draining down again.

Each time that you do that please ensure that the Boiler is NOT HOT before you introduce cold water back into the system - i.e. IF you drain the system while Hot you must definitely NOT start refilling for the `Fill & Drain` while the Boiler Heat Exchanger is still Hot.

You might get Members comments about my `Instructions` regarding that one would not usually run a Boiler / System that did not have a system Corrosion Inhibitor added - however on your 20 year old Boiler it would not have any detrimental effect for a couple of Hours regarding for example `an additional build up of limescale within the Heat Exchanger` would not occur.

The Sentinel X400 and Fernox F3 Cleansers are also available in a `Mastic type tube` for `Injecting` into a Radiator vent or with an adaptor into a Combi / Sealed system Filling Loop connection - there is usually a `premium` on the price for that convenience which adds up if for example 3 tubes are required.

I hope that this information / my opinions are useful Peter - it would be great to see an Update from you perhaps later in the Year after you have tried Cleaning and Flushing your Heating system.

Please excuse the Bold and Red sections - those comments are VERY Important and I need to emphasise them not just for You but for other / future readers.

Regards,

Chris

 

[chris murphy]

Were you checking ..your post with
More-Options , Preview Button ?
(Double clicking Back-page ..seems to do it for me )
(Once I have a greyed-out-Entry to go to in Reply box !)

Hello static zap,

Thanks for your reply.

No - I was just writing my message - You might have noticed that my replies have been VERY long - I thought when the Error messages began that there had been a `Text Limit` imposed but as I was able to close the Error message and continue I realised that was not the case - however as I got about 6 or 8 of them during typing my message something must have been triggering the Error messages.

Thanks again for you interest.

Regards,

Chris

 

[chris murphy]

Hello again Peter,

Thanks for your comments on what I wrote about my Potterton Netaheat Electronic Boiler - I liked the reminder about `Triggers Broom` - I remember it being very amusing.

If I were going to be selling my House in the next couple of years and I had a 20 year old Boiler I would probably not replace it unless I had to because it malfunctioned and was `not economically viable to repair` / parts were obsolete.

But although I am not generally a pessimist I would expect that when it did `Breakdown` it would be during the Coldest weather / at the most inconvenient time !

With regard to `Flushing` - I would definitely recommend a `DIY Clean & Flush` if You are able to do it yourself - before even considering a `PowerFlush`.

Please ensure that You buy a System Cleanser specified for Older Systems - definitely NOT an `Acidic Cleanser`.

I recommend Sentinel System Cleanser X400 or Fernox F3 - here is a link to a Sentinel webpage related to their Cleansing Chemicals:

How To: Choose the Right Central Heating Cleaning Chemical | Sentinel - https://www.sentinelprotects.com/uk/support/guides/how-choose-right-central-heating-cleaning-chemical

There should be `Dosing details` somewhere on that webpage - however if You see a reference to `1 Litre dose for Up to 10 Radiators` - that `guesstimate` means 10 SINGLE panel Radiators = approximately 100 Litres of system water.

If You have Double Panel Radiators each counts as 2 Radiators for rough calculating the Dosage of the Chemical.

The cost of the System Cleanser and your time will be VERY much cheaper than even the lowest priced PowerFlush and if you feel capable it should be beneficial.

However before you try a `DIY Clean & Flush` I would recommend that You remove the Radiator that you suspect has a layer of Sludge in the bottom and try to clear most of it by using a hose - that should help to prevent most of the Sludge in that Radiator being moved around the system when the System Cleanser Chemical `loosens` the deposits.

I should mention that if most of your Radiators and Pipework are also about 20 years old there could be a possibility that `Sludge` might move from somewhere within the system and cause a circulation problem - which is why I recommend removing and flushing out the Radiator.

If that did happen you would probably either have to engage a Heating Engineer to find and clear the blockage or arrange for a PowerFlush to be done.

As I am sure that You would know when adding the Cleaning Chemical you must ensure that it gets into the circulation system - not just poured into the Heating system F&E Tank.

If you have an Feed & Expansion Tank - you will need to drain off enough water from the system to ensure that the Chemical when poured into the F&E Tank and the water turned back on [Tank Mains supply] completely enters the circulation pipework.

After running the Heating system / Cleansing Chemical for the recommended period of time - perhaps 5 - 7 days the system must be fully drained down and then carry out a couple of `Fill and Drains` - filling the system - running for perhaps an Hour / until Hot and draining down again.

Each time that you do that please ensure that the Boiler is NOT HOT before you introduce cold water back into the system - i.e. IF you drain the system while Hot you must definitely NOT start refilling for the `Fill & Drain` while the Boiler Heat Exchanger is still Hot.

You might get Members comments about my `Instructions` regarding that one would not usually run a Boiler / System that did not have a system Corrosion Inhibitor added - however on your 20 year old Boiler it would not have any detrimental effect for a couple of Hours regarding for example `an additional build up of limescale within the Heat Exchanger` would not occur.

The Sentinel X400 and Fernox F3 Cleansers are also available in a `Mastic type tube` for `Injecting` into a Radiator vent or with an adaptor into a Combi / Sealed system Filling Loop connection - there is usually a `premium` on the price for that convenience which adds up if for example 3 tubes are required.


I hope that this information / my opinions are useful Peter - it would be great to see an Update from you perhaps later in the Year after you have tried Cleaning and Flushing your Heating system.

Please excuse the Bold and Red sections - those comments are VERY Important and I need to emphasise them not just for You but for other / future readers.

Regards,

Chris

Hello Peter,

I was rushing slightly when typing my previous message and I forgot to add this paragraph:

When You fill the Heating system finally after the `Fill / Run & Drain` Flushing [after draining the Cleansing Chemical] you must add a Corrosion Inhibitor Chemical - Sentinal or Fernox - to continue to protect the system from further Corrosion / Limescale production etc.

Dose as I mentioned for the Cleansing Chemical regarding Double Panel Radiators equating to 2 Radiators for Chemical amount rough calculation - if you get `Fernox MB1` Liquid it comes in 4 Litre containers - I recommend at least 2 x 4 Litres for the `average system` - more if your system is larger than 10 or 12 Double panel Radiators.

Introduce the Inhibitor to the F&E Tank at the start of the final filling process.

Sorry for that omission in my other message.

Regards,

Chris

 

[slpjslpj]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for that very comprehensive reply. I'll print that off and digest it.

One quick question. I see there is also an X800 vesrion that claims to do the job in a couple of hours even used manually instead of a powerflush.

Would that be safe and effective to use?

Thanks.

 

[chris murphy]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for that very comprehensive reply. I'll print that off and digest it.

One quick question. I see there is also an X800 vesrion that claims to do the job in a couple of hours even used manually instead of a powerflush.

Would that be safe and effective to use?

Thanks.

Hello again Peter,

I obviously know about the Sentinel X800 `Fast Acting` System Cleanser - but I did not mention it because I would be wary of any `Fast Acting` Chemical for use in a 20 year old Heating system.

Although it is stated in the product factsheet to not be an `Acidic Cleanser` something in the chemical causes it to be `Fast Acting`.

The problem with `Super Cleansers` - even the `Non Acidic` formulas - especially on a system that is 20 years old is that sometimes they clean too well - causing small leaks to appear where corrosion had been `sealing` the point of the leak.

I would advise You to telephone Sentinel Products Technical Helpline - the main Company number is 01928 704 330 - and ask for their opinion about using the Sentinel X800 in your 20 year old Heating system.

IF the X800 was such a `Universal Super Cleanser` / O.K. for ALL types and ages of Heating systems / `Cleans systems in as little as an Hour`- Heating Engineers would have no use for any other Sentinel Chemical Cleansers.

Of course You could `take a chance` on using the Sentinel X800 and it might work well on your Heating system and not cause any leaks.

As I previously advised - You should definitely remove the Radiator that you suspect has a layer of Sludge and try to flush it out using a Hosepipe.

I did not mention refitting it afterwards in my previous message - but you should refit the Radiator after flushing it out [and refill it] - before using the system Cleansing Chemical [whichever one you choose].

Having done that the Sludge in that Radiator will not be there to be moved around the system during the Cleansing / Filling & Draining processes.

I would be interested to see an update on what You decide to use / what Sentinel Helpline say - and perhaps after you carry out the Cleaning & Flushing etc.

Regards,

Chris

 

[telectrix]

a bit off topic, but back in the 70's and 80's, my core business was \t|V repairs. the dust that accumulated on the PCBs was massive, due to the electro static attraction with up to 25kV floating round. a soft paint brush and a vac soon sorted that. done usually with the set switched on so i could see if anything stopped working while cleaning. however, the dust rarely caused any problems.