Is there any way of getting the PEFC if you only have the Ze?

[Guest55]

Suffice to say that Guitarist has 1 Friend mentioned in his Profile, & I do not have to go a million miles to see why 1shortcircuit came in straight away to criticise me after Guitarist. The concept of cyber bullying is not a new phenomenon.

This is a forum, the purpose of which is to promote critical thinking, meaningful problem solving & knowledge construction, take your cyber bullying elsewhere. I will decide what will do me good, it is not for anyone to make that decision for me.

I have found the responses from other members highly interesting & I found the one posted by Guitarist, did not do anything for me. That response correlated with some of the others that Guitarist has posted in other threads, in that they tend to have a low interest value, & tend to rant, the others did not. There was a world of difference between what MarkieSparkie wrote & the rant that came from Guitarist.

Youre coming across as a real jerk pal.
You started a thread and asked a question.
It was answered in the second post and everyone should have gone home happy.
You like to use long-winded lingo in otherwise empty tedious posts.
As internet trolls go youre small change so go jog on.

 

[mtfpuk2011]

This.was in.the.2391 on.the 9th this.month.why warry should have reaulta.by the 12th.October if worse come worse.re sit.ir

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2

 

[ipf]

This.was in.the.2391 on.the 9th this.month.why warry should have reaulta.by the 12th.October if worse come worse.re sit.ir

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2

Grammer and spelling ? 'Full stop' to that too. Never seen such small sentences.

 

[mtfpuk2011]

Yh well.I.have dixscler so.I sat 2391 and just wate see what happens

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[1shortcircuit]

Suffice to say that Guitarist has 1 Friend mentioned in his Profile, & I do not have to go a million miles to see why 1shortcircuit came in straight away to criticise me after Guitarist. The concept of cyber bullying is not a new phenomenon.

This is a forum, the purpose of which is to promote critical thinking, meaningful problem solving & knowledge construction, take your cyber bullying elsewhere. I will decide what will do me good, it is not for anyone to make that decision for me.

I have found the responses from other members highly interesting & I found the one posted by Guitarist, did not do anything for me. That response correlated with some of the others that Guitarist has posted in other threads, in that they tend to have a low interest value, & tend to rant, the others did not. There was a world of difference between what MarkieSparkie wrote & the rant that came from Guitarist.

I think you have suffered another confusion here Ashley.

The use of emoticons and symbols such as :thumbsup or Good Luck should not be taken in a negative way. I have based my post on posts that you have made in not only this thread but I went to the effort of browsing previous posts in other threads to confirm my suspicion.

If you feel that my post is irrelevant and the post such as MarkieSparkie's is useful and you understand then that is superb, perhaps I judged you wrong? Perhaps I didn't? Who cares? I was actually trying to offer some critique and remind you that learning to walk before you run is a wise move. If you choose to disregard this that too is completely cool. I am most certainly not going to lose any sleep over it my friend.

I wish you luck with your understanding of the basics of the trade and sincerely wish you all the best on understanding the more difficult areas too. I hope you do well and pass your course:thumbsup

PS I am a big boy and do not need the assistance of/feel the need to attack/defend any member whether they be on my friends list in my profile or not.

F***ing Dime Bar!!!!

 

[reefagrim]

I have to say i have assessed over 1500 electricians in their competence in their ablilty to test and i would say i found some good some shocking and some average. Ofa all of then that are trained electricians it was obvious that so many became lazy in their thinking of the test it be came a chore and after much prompting answers were given which i wanted to hear. the regs and assoicated GN books have the relevent infomation that you need and yes it can be confusing sometimes depends on the teacher or the back ground of the learner actually learning. of what i have read (and i did type a error i missed a o.o oops smack on the wrist) i have not only seen the question answered in many examples but also the " why " this is information that has been given freely and what you do not think is relevent to the question of the 2391 exam actually is ! it the whole point of it. maybe you should ask why have you been given the questions in the first place or a copy of the exam they want you to pass!! but any one person can test i can teach my 6 year old the correct proceedure and method but he will not understand the "why" of what he has done . i would say anyone who has been as fortunate to have such a deeply explained answer given by experienced and competent persons wouldnt be so negative.

 

[Guitarist]

Suffice to say that Guitarist has 1 Friend mentioned in his Profile, & I do not have to go a million miles to see why 1shortcircuit came in straight away to criticise me after Guitarist. The concept of cyber bullying is not a new phenomenon.

This is a forum, the purpose of which is to promote critical thinking, meaningful problem solving & knowledge construction, take your cyber bullying elsewhere. I will decide what will do me good, it is not for anyone to make that decision for me.

I have found the responses from other members highly interesting & I found the one posted by Guitarist, did not do anything for me. That response correlated with some of the others that Guitarist has posted in other threads, in that they tend to have a low interest value, & tend to rant, the others did not. There was a world of difference between what MarkieSparkie wrote & the rant that came from Guitarist.

I'm really not sure how you can accuse me of being a "cyber-bully" when I merely ask that you show the members on this forum some gratitude, rather than keep arguing with them about basic knowledge. I very much resent that accusation.
It is people like you on this forum that make a lot of us think "why bother?"
As for "ranting"? Hmmm....
All of us on here give our knowledge freely and to help other electricians who genuinely need help (and occasionally DIY'ers too).
Anyway, I wish you all the best and hope that with enough help on the forum you will be able to learn some of the basics of our profession.

 

[Ashley2]

If you feel that my post is irrelevant and the post such as MarkieSparkie's is useful and you understand then that is superb, perhaps I judged you wrong?ng Dime Bar!!!!

The input that MarkieSparkie bought to this topic, I really enjoyed, & I am sure that you are as capable as him, in this respect, so please do not perceive my comments in this regard. If my perception, in terms of what I wrote after your post, is wrong, relating to the profile issue, then I apologise.

 

[1shortcircuit]

in terms of what I wrote after your post, is wrong, relating to the profile issue, then I apologise.

Absolutely no need to apologise in my opinion. Everyone has an opinion and I am far from always being right.

One thing for sure, I won't be losing sleep over anything posted on a forum

MarkieSparkie's posts are always VERY informative but often the content goes way over my head as I'm more of a small words/pictures man lol

:thumbsup

 

[spark 68]

As always there will be differences of opinion.

I was always taught to use the Ze {measured} +(R1+R2) {again measured} and record the calculated results method.

The reason my mentor taught me this method, was if your calculated (two measured results added together) complied, then any parallel paths which lowered the Zs was a bonus, but not guaranteed.
You were actually measuring and calculating the worst case results, which were likely (but not guaranteed) to be better in reality, so if your results complied they could only get better, this he said was proper testing and proving compliance.
Likewise if you just measured your Zs, things could change later leaving you with a non compliant circuit.

On my own jobs I do the two measurements and calculate method and record this result, but still check the measured Zs just to double check that everything is ok.

I have worked on sites where they have wanted the actual measured Zs, but on the other hand I have been boll*cked on yet another site (same firm, different gaffer) where my Zs has been lower than the Ze (due to parallel paths), so it seems you cannot win, as always he who pays the piper calls the tune.

 

[Ashley2]

Absolutely no need to apologise in my opinion. Everyone has an opinion.

Thank you for your response. And with reference to my initial query, my conversation with D Skelton was spot on, he put me right & I could have kicked myself for having lost that aspect:

D Skelton: (8). “PEFC is calculated using voltage and Ze only, forget the info about the 100A protective device because it seems to be confusing you and throwing you off”.

My response was:
Ashley2: (11). Yes, its not the 100A protective device, its the Icn value, "& for the majority of applications the prospective fault current at the terminals should not exceed this value". It is ohms law, KISS should be the motto in 2391.

The above remark was in response to my input into the exam question, namely that I should have kept it simple, in terms of answering this part, & I should have kept to Ohms law, instead of gallivanting into other areas. As far as I was concerned the matter had been concluded, thanks to D Skelton & IQelectrical.

 

[D Skelton]

As always there will be differences of opinion.

I was always taught to use the Ze {measured} +(R1+R2) {again measured} and record the calculated results method.

The reason my mentor taught me this method, was if your calculated (two measured results added together) complied, then any parallel paths which lowered the Zs was a bonus, but not guaranteed.
You were actually measuring and calculating the worst case results, which were likely (but not guaranteed) to be better in reality, so if your results complied they could only get better, this he said was proper testing and proving compliance.
Likewise if you just measured your Zs, things could change later leaving you with a non compliant circuit.

On my own jobs I do the two measurements and calculate method and record this result, but still check the measured Zs just to double check that everything is ok.

I have worked on sites where they have wanted the actual measured Zs, but on the other hand I have been boll*cked on yet another site (same firm, different gaffer) where my Zs has been lower than the Ze (due to parallel paths), so it seems you cannot win, as always he who pays the piper calls the tune.

I agree 100%. When determining Zs, I believe calculation is always best because like you said, you are working out what the Zs would be in the worst case scenario with no parallel paths.

When working out PEFC however, I was always taught that measurement is best because you want to include all the parallel paths to find out what the worst case scenario is.

 

[spark 68]

When working out PEFC however, I was always taught that measurement is best because you want to include all the parallell paths to find out what the worst case scenario is.

Agreed,
:yes:

 

[D Skelton]

my conversation with D Skelton was spot on, he put me right

thanks to D Skelton & IQelectrical.

In future, there is a little 'Thanks' button at the bottom left hand corner of every post. Just tap that if you wanna say thanks to someone for writing a helpful and informative post

In all seriousness though I'm glad you finally grasped the concept, when I first started studying I found things hard to grasp, hell I'd even go as far to say that most of us on here find one or more things hard to understand still. We all have our weaknesses and we're all still learning however one thing I've noticed that seperates the men from the boys in this game is that the men still have a keen interest in learning about our work no matter how experienced they are. The boys however know it all already (or at least think they do)! So my advice is never give up your quest for more knowledge! The hungrier you are for it, the more seriously you will be taken IMHO.

I'd also agree with the KISS acronym, one sure way of getting yourself in a right old mess in this line of work is overthinking things! We've all done it!