Nuts for RCDs!

[Dan23584]

Has anyone else experienced other sparks going nuts for RCD's and thinking they are required for pretty much everything?

I recently did the installation at my local CEF branch and had another spark telling me I should have fitted a dual RCD board! I reminded him that the install was in trunking and conduit ( no less than 50mm issue) and also not in a domestic situation. All sockets were in The office, apart form an outside RCD socket and a couple of sockets in the warehouse that were on an rcbo ( they were near the door to outside).

He still said "well I think it's good practice to fit them in most situations for optimising protection". I just bot my tongue told him to check his regs book and went on about my merry way.

 

[Octopus]

I agree with the other sparky that its good practice to always fit RCD protection for sockets.

 

[Dan23584]

These were for computers, and not accessible by any members of the public so for use by supervised or trained people. In there H&S it covers the use and misuse of socket outlets. He was saying I should have fit a dual RCD board to protect everything!

 

[Octopus]

Hum, maybe somebody who concentrates on domestic maybe

 

[Deservices]

These were for computers, and not accessible by any members of the public so for use by supervised or trained people. In there H&S it covers the use and misuse of socket outlets. He was saying I should have fit a dual RCD board to protect everything!

I would of done the same in a office environment, last thing they would want is all there computers going down just because a bulb goes in a light, or somebody plugs a dodgy item in a socket in warehouse. Looks like you did the best protection for the job in hand.

 

[Plonker 3]

As long as regulation 411.3.3 is met then what you have done is perfectly fine.

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I would of done the same in a office environment, last thing they would want is all there computers going down just because a bulb goes in a light, or somebody plugs a dodgy item in a socket in warehouse. Looks like you did the best protection for the job in hand.

Just because it is in a office area and may nuisance trip is no reason to by pass the regs.

 

[Hawk81]

I find that a lot of domestic sparks think that the dual RCD board is the end all and be all of boards. RCD everything is their answer. Not always needed or best practice

 

[Taylortwocities]

Multiple office computers + peripherals + RCDs = nuisance tripping because of mains filter components

 

[Plonker 3]

Multiple office computers + peripherals + RCDs = nuisance tripping because of mains filter components

Well separate your circuits accordingly. Simple really.

 

[Jimmy Boy]

Whose signing it of for Design, installation and testing ?..You ? if so whatever you do comes back to your door, if someone else is signing it off..that's thier problem ! The computer scenario, yes I agree with, consider putting IT on a high integrity earth circuit, labeled appropriately,and noted on the cert, in any other scenario this 'instructed persons' clause just sucks, you can absolutely 100% guarantee can you that an 'ordinary person' ISN'T going to use these sockets ? I doubt it ! For sockets I would alway RCD them UNLESS I can justify that under no circumstances ever will they be used by 'ordinary persons' or members of the public.
ATB
J

 

[DurhamSparky]

I think what you have done sounds ok .

 

[Dan23584]

It is me designing and inspecting the install, I feel confident that the installation I have done is safe and meets all the requirements in the BGB. There few occasions where fitting a nn RCD protected circuit supplying socket outlets is suitable and I believe this to be one of them. too many sparks think that RCD's are the only way to have a safe installation, I bet everyone and there mum was getting electric shocks before RCD's were introduced.

 

[oldtimer]

Did you use a Proteus board then lol

 

[Dan23584]

Did you use a Proteus board then lol

I did actually yeah lol. they supplied all the kit so never had a problem with waiting for materials.

 

[Jimmy Boy]

It is me designing and inspecting the install, I feel confident that the installation I have done is safe and meets all the requirements in the BGB. There few occasions where fitting a nn RCD protected circuit supplying socket outlets is suitable and I believe this to be one of them. too many sparks think that RCD's are the only way to have a safe installation, I bet everyone and there mum was getting electric shocks before RCD's were introduced.

if your signing it off..it's your call, but equally I don't feel if someone did RCD a similar circuit, that makes them 'wrong' and you 'right' it's up to the designer to interpret the regs and apply them as they see fit, and for the signatory, in this case you, to sign it off, if the cleaner cops an --- winder off her vacuum fed from your non RCD sockets, it's you that has to justify that interpretation, in this case you feel you can so its all good !
J

 

[oldtimer]

The thing is that your are in a position and so are they that they could have fitted RCBOs and split the IT circuits up

 

[Dan23584]

I wasn't looking for confirmation of what I have done, its my call and I made it. merely discussing the way RCDs seem to be getting used.

 

[Plonker 3]

Obviously the cost of splitting RCD circuits for IT is going to come into play, but me personally can't see a reason not to RCD protect virtually all socket outlets these days.

But it is your --- on the line should the brown stuff hit the fan.

 

[Engineer54]

Reading this, Makes me wonder how we have all survived without RCD devices over all these years... We should all be dead or frightened to switch a light or socket on...lol!!

I'm with Dan on this one, far too much reliance on the all singing, all dancing ''Cover All'' RCD devices these day's. They are NOT always required on every circuit and in every situation...

 

[Jimmy Boy]

Reading this, Makes me wonder how we have all survived without RCD devices over all these years... We should all be dead or frightened to switch a light or socket on...lol!!

I'm with Dan on this one, far too much reliance on the all singing, all dancing ''Cover All'' RCD devices these day's. They are NOT always required on every circuit and in every situation...

Who said they were ? The OP was seemingly criticising another sparks interpretation of the need for RCD protection on his installation, as stated its his call, that doesn't make the other guy completely wrong !
J

 

[Engineer54]

Who said they were ? The OP was seemingly criticising another sparks interpretation of the need for RCD protection on his installation, as stated its his call, that doesn't make the other guy completely wrong !
J

Eh, ...i'm making a general statement here, nothing more nothing less!!!

 

[Fin170]

Kind of makes you wish 'specialised' sockets were more easily available, like the ones with the T shaped earth pins so you could fit them to computers for dedicated socket circuits and avoid this kind of situation

 

[Jimmy Boy]

Has anyone else experienced other sparks going nuts for RCD's and thinking they are required for pretty much everything?

I recently did the installation at my local CEF branch and had another spark telling me I should have fitted a dual RCD board! I reminded him that the install was in trunking and conduit ( no less than 50mm issue) and also not in a domestic situation. All sockets were in The office, apart form an outside RCD socket and a couple of sockets in the warehouse that were on an rcbo ( they were near the door to outside).

He still said "well I think it's good practice to fit them in most situations for optimising protection". I just bot my tongue told him to check his regs book and went on about my merry way.

Dan I really am just looking for reasonable discussion not an argument,but where would have you pointed him to to look in the regs ? It's the bit about your installation not being 'Domestic' that I can't square the circle with in my head ? 411.3.3 states the reasons and exceptions, and you have decided to apply one or both of the exceptions in that reg, again I have no issue with that, your call, are you saying 'ordinary' persons can't be found in a non- domestic building ? so that's a given ?
J

 

[Jimmy Boy]

Kind of makes you wish 'specialised' sockets were more easily available, like the ones with the T shaped earth pins so you could fit them to computers for dedicated socket circuits and avoid this kind of situation

They are readily available I have used them on many occasions , problem being of course is that all IT comes with their own moulded plugs and most people don't take kindly to having them cut off !
J

 

[Deservices]

As long as regulation 411.3.3 is met then what you have done is perfectly fine.

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Just because it is in a office area and may nuisance trip is no reason to by pass the regs.

At what point have the regs been bypassed?

 

[Plonker 3]

I never directly said that it had.

I would of done the same in a office environment, last thing they would want is all there computers going down just because a bulb goes in a light, or somebody plugs a dodgy item in a socket in warehouse. Looks like you did the best protection for the job in hand.

Makes it sound like there was no other way to carry out the job, therefore the regs could have been ignored?

 

[Deservices]

I never directly said that it had.



Makes it sound like there was no other way to carry out the job, therefore the regs could have been ignored?

He provided addition protection where he had a idea other people may plug things in ie near the rear door and In the warehouse. Adding another rcbo to the office sockets would of made no difference to the cost(parts supplied by CEF) so I'm assuming CEF asked for no rcd so as to get no nuisance tripping, in which case would of also had a competent person to see that the sockets were used what what is intended. Ignoring the fact that everything is surface mount and in conduit.

 

[Plonker 3]

He provided addition protection where he had a idea other people may plug things in ie near the rear door and In the warehouse. Adding another rcbo to the office sockets would of made no difference to the cost(parts supplied by CEF) so I'm assuming CEF asked for no rcd so as to get no nuisance tripping, in which case would of also had a competent person to see that the sockets were used what what is intended. Ignoring the fact that everything is surface mount and in conduit.

Now I am not getting involved in a argument, but it is down to interpretation. IT equipment will leak to earth therefore causing a RCD/RCBO to trip if to much is installed on one circuit. This is what the OP wanted to avoid. Now the sockets wont be used or constantly monitored by a skilled person. As to do that would be bloody expensive to employ effectively retail assistants.

The customer has not stated they dont want the sockets RCD protecting as again the OP has said he has done the design, install and testing.

So the only way I see it possible to do this would be too.

A. Work out earth leakage of each item of equipment
B. Install enough circuits so that none reach the limits of nuisance tripping
C. Install each circuit on a RCBO

 

[Deservices]

So your saying it has to be RCD protected, even though in conduit and no mobile items will be plugged in? Only the office manager has to be deemed competent to know how to take care of the sockets, they don't have to be a electrician to be deemed competent to know what should be plunged in or not( I may be wrong on this point)

 

[Plonker 3]

Myself yes I would.

Do the items plugged in need PAT? That makes them portable.

What happens when the manager is off work, out of the office etc ? Too many variables in a office to say only one person has to be competant.

 

[Deservices]

Now I am not getting involved in a argument, but it is down to interpretation. IT equipment will leak to earth therefore causing a RCD/RCBO to trip if to much is installed on one circuit. This is what the OP wanted to avoid. Now the sockets wont be used or constantly monitored by a skilled person. As to do that would be bloody expensive to employ effectively retail assistants.

The customer has not stated they dont want the sockets RCD protecting as again the OP has said he has done the design, install and testing.

So the only way I see it possible to do this would be too.

A. Work out earth leakage of each item of equipment
B. Install enough circuits so that none reach the limits of nuisance tripping
C. Install each circuit on a RCBO

He would also do the design based on what they wanted. But as he's not stated they didn't want RCD protection, I would also of fitted one if not been requested not to. but of told them possible trips and adjusted needed ie maybe run a few radials.

 

[Jimmy Boy]

I don't see any confusion, he has applied section 411.3.3, and used exceptions a, or b, under this reg, as long as the sockets are under the supervision or a skilled or instructed person ( IMHO this should be noted on the cert ) OR the socket outlets are labelled for use with a particular item of equipment he isn't in contravention of the regs, but I still await the OP's response to my earlier question why he thinks RCD protection only applies to domestic dwellings ?
ATB
J

 

[Deservices]

The term mobile is for a item that is moved while it is plugged in ie floor cleaner lawn mower not commuter monitor.

 

[Jimmy Boy]

TBH I think it is going a little off track, the question is, will those sockets be used or be LIKELY to be used by 'ordinary' persons ?..answer yes, then apply the regs RCD them, answer no, then use the exceptions in the regs, but, and here is the rub, I can foresee very very few office situations, where you can reasonably guarantee that no one other than those skilled or instructed persons will use those sockets, the cleaners come in a ten at night use the sockets, or some maintenance man, too many variables for my liking but as I say it's down to the signatory ! It's his head on the block if it goes pear shaped !
J

 

[Engineer54]

Far too much being read into this, ...exactly what are you expecting to go wrong, if and when the instructed person is out of the room/office?? He has stated the dedicated outlet for the cleaner has been RCD'd??

You simply can't cover every single possibility of usage of a circuit, that is out of any electricians control. As far as i can see there is nothing wrong with the OP's installation. ...And no he won't have his head on the block!!

 

[dagrat]

I agree with Engineer 54,I think that the regulation as it stands refers to installations that come under the control of a competent person, and therefore does not necessarily refers to persons using the computer.
One reason the RCD regulation is relaxed in these situations is because it is assumed (for example) that any drilling in these locations will only be undertaken by a skilled and competent person. So no probs

 

[oldtimer]

Good discussion guys and me thinks we are missing the point as we are all lead to believe that RCDs were introduced because an MPs daughter was sadly killed but me I am more cynical than this I think because RCDs became more economically viable the MPs daughter was used as a vehicle for interested parties ie the Scheme providers to strengthen their position within the industry and at the same time they get to ride on the back of improving safety . Also they thought via Part Pish they thought they could control the domestic environment but stayed well clear of trying to force it on the commercial and industrial sector. Remember the you cannot back date the regs but you put it in such a way that if you make changes then you need to apply them.

Now as for CEF being in the industrial and commercial class well yes but there is one problem their when you walk in they have a lot of lighting displays so in a sense they have to be RCD protected even although the majority of the people on the customer side are electricians they have to be treated as Joe Publics

 

[smu_diddly]

I don't think cef will have enough IT equipment to cause an rcd to trip, you would need like a huge office full of them to produce enough leakage to trip. If all other circuits are in conduit then fine leave the rcds off them but stick an rcbo on the sockets. I wouldn't take the risk.

 

[imago]

exactly what are you expecting to go wrong,

Well they used Proteus gear, so .........

 

[Engineer54]

Will someone please tell me what far out and away risks were talking about here. these sockets were talking about are in metal conduit containment, so no-ones going to be putting screws or pins through the wiring. Assuming that the ADS is well up to specifications, tell me what risks are we talking about on these IT/computer dedicated outlets....