pulling the fuse

[Phil]

requested by the apprentices favourite teacher "amber leaf"
Amber has asked if we can have a discussion and a poll for the results

regarding the pulling of the fuse to which i think we all know where we stand regarding the DNO etc and not being allowed to. i will include a poll at the top for your thoughts.

 

[robsparx]

eh?

 

[Phil]

he would like your thoughts with the poll above regarding being allowed to pull the fuse for safe isolation

 

[sbrown2]

If we are looking at raising the safety levels relating to domestic premises this is an absolute must. A pre requisite should be the immediate installation of a isolator. Therefore the process should be notifiable, as it currently is.

 

[thekingiam]

Oh I just love spending monney on the dole, uhm I recon 250 quid training course but you also have to be inspected yearly also could we have special tags that we have also to buy off someone to put on fuse enclosure to prove that a competant person pulled the fuse .
We could pay about a fiver each tag?

 

[jenno]

I am pulling my hair out have spoken with dno told them the situation with my mates house and today alone was given 5 different numbers and still told ring british gas as they supply you and they would have installed new meter

 

[accordfire]

requested by the apprentices favourite teacher "amber leaf"
Amber has asked if we can have a discussion and a poll for the results

regarding the pulling of the fuse to which i think we all know where we stand regarding the DNO etc and not being allowed to. i will include a poll at the top for your thoughts.

Where's the option "Pull the fuse if you want, but put it back in without a signed cert, cause a bang, and pay the fine"........

I know some DNO's are "insisting" on REC2 isolator switches being fitted on new installs, IMO they should be too - BUT.....the problem is NEVER in ISOLATING the supply, ALWAYS in what happens when attempting to reconnect it....which, as far as I remember, why it was made an offence to pull the fuse in the first place.

I know guys who will pull the fuse anyway, and claim there was no seal, or it was already broken, and that they didn't touch it (so, obviously did a CU change live!!!!).....or that they only pulled it BECAUSE there was no seal.....

And I've seen some idiots who are lucky to be alive at all today given what they have tried to reconnect to the DNO incomer.....

And to be honest, I think it isn't before time we go down the Gas SAFE route of having cards (The JIB should be doing this already IMO) with little symbols on the back up to and including whether of not the holder is competent to remove and replace the DNO fuse.

Far from paying extra for it, I think it should be a MANDATORY part of the primary electrical quals, AND update quals. No pass on this, no pass at all.

 

[Phil]

i was thinking along the same lines for the add on to say the 2391 or the 2330 l3 prac exam. there is so much we already have at our fingertips in this industry regarding regulating electricians etc so why they need to make it more difficult than it should be i don`t know. i for one would be happy to go on an update course run by the dno or somewhere sponsored by them. surely when they have to train their guys up to be able to do this it would be cheaper to just get a competent electrician on their list instead. i would be happy to sign a waiver for them regarding the pulling of the fuse that the emphasis is on me for the safely doing it etc and that i would provide my own ppe. i also think they missed the opportunity of fitting isolaters when they went round replacing the old type meters but i gues that would not have gotten them the call out charge they currently ask for.

 

[accordfire]

i was thinking along the same lines for the add on to say the 2391 or the 2330 l3 prac exam. there is so much we already have at our fingertips in this industry regarding regulating electricians etc so why they need to make it more difficult than it should be i don`t know. i for one would be happy to go on an update course run by the dno or somewhere sponsored by them. surely when they have to train their guys up to be able to do this it would be cheaper to just get a competent electrician on their list instead. i would be happy to sign a waiver for them regarding the pulling of the fuse that the emphasis is on me for the safely doing it etc and that i would provide my own ppe. i also think they missed the opportunity of fitting isolaters when they went round replacing the old type meters but i gues that would not have gotten them the call out charge they currently ask for.

Sadly, I think money is as usual what it comes down to.....it isn't necessarily safety or competence driven, but at some level (normally up there ^) that it is looked at in terms of revenue stream, and if they cannot see where else to regain that stream, it won't happen. Tough, but true.

Like you, I'm happy to sign a waiver, or disclaimer, and attend even an annual course to prove my competence to refit the fuse.

And like you, it would have been an ideal opportunity when replacing analogue meters to new digital ones, to also fit a REC switch.....but indeed, the other way was preferred - do your install, terminate your tails in a REC switch, and we'll come along change the meter and tail out to your REC. Then you can come back, and finish your testing....WTF??? Who does testing in two separate visits.....and WHAT would be to stop the customer operating the REC and potentially hurting themselves because THEY then have the ability to energise an untested, or only partly tested install?

OK, you can do all your SAFE tests, and be reasonably sure that you haven't got shorts, or incorrect polarity (with good eyesight), but....you cannot necessarily tell none of your accessories are faulty with only safe test or know that an RCD is properly operational.

IMO, and told to the DNO in question, it was bloody stupid advice, and my guy would under NO CIRCUMSTANCES connect our tails to a REC prior to the DNO connecting their tails. Energising of the system would only ever be carried out under our direct supervision.

Sometimes, even with DNO's you gotta wonder.....

 

[Sparky Ninja]

he would like your thoughts with the poll above regarding being allowed to pull the fuse for safe isolation

I voted the 2391 option, but then noticed you mention safe isolation. I'd never consider pulling a fuse as safe isolation, even if its the supply fuse.

 

[accordfire]

I voted the 2391 option, but then noticed you mention safe isolation. I'd never consider pulling a fuse as safe isolation, even if its the supply fuse.

No, it's fair to say it isn't - as many service fuses also leave live terminals exposed.

There are valid grounds I think for a re-designed service fuse/isolator which ensures the incoming live supply CANNOT be reached fuse in or out.

And there goes another pig with wings.......

 

[sbrown2]

Which I assume is why the DNO's maintain they will isolate so encompass safety and a path to upgrading requirements. I will always maintain, although I've never done, its safer to pull the fuse.

 

[Paul.M]

What I would recommend is the JIB card, numbered seals available in every wholesalers, show your card to buy some to prove you are of a certain standard of safety. Once the seal has been replaced e-mail, text or call the DNO with your JIB ref and seal ref and everyone is happy. Cost effective, safe and traceable back to the spark that did the work even if the work carried out was like for like and none notifiable under the part p, only JIB members can do it legally.

 

[millwall ken]

What I would recommend is the JIB card, numbered seals available in every wholesalers, show your card to buy some to prove you are of a certain standard of safety. Once the seal has been replaced e-mail, text or call the DNO with your JIB ref and seal ref and everyone is happy. Cost effective, safe and traceable back to the spark that did the work even if the work carried out was like for like and none notifiable under the part p, only JIB members can do it legally.

Whilst I would agree with you in principal Paul, I believe that the cowboys will still find a way around the law - by using fake JIB cards or something. And would you trust the average idiot who works behind the counter of a wholesalers to be able to recognise a fake card?

 

[Paul.M]

Whilst I would agree with you in principal Paul, I believe that the cowboys will still find a way around the law - by using fake JIB cards or something. And would you trust the average idiot who works behind the counter of a wholesalers to be able to recognise a fake card?

Good point Ken. How about proving yourself as a competent electrician to your local DNO and getting the seals directly from them? That way they can send you leaflets etc on their own safe procedures. That reminds me, buy some from flee bay for my own c/u change that I did a few months ago. It just fel off soon as I looked at it

 

[Phil]

Good point Ken. How about proving yourself as a competent electrician to your local DNO and getting the seals directly from them? That way they can send you leaflets etc on their own safe procedures. That reminds me, buy some from flee bay for my own c/u change that I did a few months ago. It just fel off soon as I looked at it

what you did your cu change and it fell off the wall? didn`t you plug the wall

 

[mechelec]

I dont think the DNO's will ever give authorisation to anyone other than employees/contractors in the distribution/metering buisinesses to pull cutout fuses. The sheer number of different types of cutout on the network and the age and condition of some of them would open them up to litigation if a cutout faulted when someone pulled the fuse. Believe me it does happen although thankfully not very often. The choice is down to the individual. Personally I have no problem pulling the fuse if the cutout is plastic, looks in good condition and shows no sign of distress. Metal clad are another story. the clearances are quite small and removing a cast lid and having a flashover is too much of a gamble for me to take. Is anyone policing the removal of CO fuses and seals. I have never heard of anyone being reprimanded for doing it.

 

[Paul.M]

what you did your cu change and it fell off the wall? didn`t you plug the wall

I made the mistake of getting advice from another forum and used blue tac.

I left myself wide open for that, well done I'll get my own back Phil.

 

[amberleaf]

Thank you Jason/Dan . for your Air-Space / & Phil

I have a potential issue with the Service Fuse : ( it’s 60 Amp & about 50 year’s old / Original to the House ) I could be BS-2 / BS-1361 ?
The trouble is I’ve adding up the Amperage . The Owner is potentially drawing to much . & it is Exceeding 60 Amp’s
Although 80A fuse’s can & are used in many 60A cut-out’s

● Do they still do ? a Short Questionnaire why you want to use a 100 Amp ?

In all like hood they’ll insist on a New cut-out . or possibly want you to pay for a New service .
( oh yeah New Cable that’ll be £2000 please )
It’s worth arguing the ---- with them as they do like to GET the Customer to PAY for Upgrading their (Own Decrepid Cable’s ) My View Only

Accordfire : I think Money is as Usual what it comes down to . “ Your Right “

The Incoming Service Cut-out & Fuse 100A . will need Upgrading . I would have not known if the Seals was Not Cut before hand .
“ Scenario “ how can a Electrician . make the Call . if can’t get assess to the “ Service Cut-Out & Fuse “ 60 / 80 / 100 Amps ???????
- You can’t get any Better than a 2391-10 . My highest Respect . Competent Person 100%

True Story .
On site Working next door on a Job . had to go into next door’s to get some water for coffee . this stupid Idiot down on his knees holding Tails in his hand Insulation tape around the Tails ( Bloody Live ) Went strait to the Cut Out Fuse cut the Seal’s & pulled it . Yes I was in the Wrong Cutting the Fuse . but Under this Situation I think I was in the Right ( Bloody Idiot could have Killed his Self ) Lucky to be Alive . Yes they are ----er.s out there .
What do we Term Safety . [ Safe Isolation / Idiot working Live Power ]

“ Scenario “ I’m currently involved in a full rewire at the moment & I have gone about it in the Correct Way & asked if they can make time to cut the Seal can’t get out until Fortnight ( I need the seal broken to pull the Service Fuse )

Now a Days . Who is the Energy Suppler if it’s not the DNO . “ Telephone Call’s “ W.T.H !

I think a 2391-10 . should be able to Pull a Service – Fuse Competent Person 100% ??
So what makes them better Qualified to pull it than You . ?? 2391-10 . My View Only
The Electrician is the First line of Defence / Service Cut-Out

● I must mention the Potential Danger’s of Pulling Supplier’s Fuses ( it may Contain a Flash if there is an Issue )
When I’ve had them Out to pull a Fuse . They weren’t warning any Rubber Gloves or Rubber Mat’s

 

[nickblake]

It was arranged for them to reinstate a supply and install new tails , i drove for 2 hours was there all day they never turned up so i cut the seals and replaced the tails and main earth ,thats my point 1 (didnt re energise would have been easy as the fuse had been removed)

Point 2 when you carry out a PIR What is the fuse size in the DNO fuse labled 100 amp , i doubt it is a 100 amp fuse , We have to lable and identify every thing or we will be marked down on an assesment

Point 3 they should go round and install isolators to every house if we are not allowed to remove the fuse , but the tails from the meter to the CDU is not the responcabilty of the DNO , but they are quite happy to stick a piece of sticky tape with L on one and N on the other round dodgy tails

oh and im very shocked to see no ones voted for the £250 1 day course yet .......not

So why dont we have ,a minimum of 2391 qualified and supplied with your own seals with a number on and this number is written on the cert for the premises in question

 

[ezzzekiel]

although currently ahead in the pole i cant see how holding the 2391 in any way would show competence in service fuse removal its a test & inspect cert.

personally a dno course i still hold a valid pto and although not rocket science i believe a one day training course is best way forward on this.

 

[accordfire]

There is another issue to using JIB gradings and registration as it currently stands.

Effectively, we would be putting control of all of this into a commercial organisation - i.e. one out to make a profit.

The DNOs will never agree to handing over their profits to another.

IMVHO, it is beyond time that our government - the prime body who is charged with care of our nation in ALL respects, in every possible avenue - takes hold of the whole shooting match, and seriously thinks about how ALL trades go forward.

And I mean this from pre-apprenticeship (i.e. during our school days) right the way through until retirement. A unified register of trades, maintained by a government body, at tax payers expense, which is (a) Easily accessible, (b) maintained DAILY, (c) Understandable to the public (d) reflect the REAL skills of trades people, including a summary of fines, bans, etc, and (e) makes it EASY for trades to register work, gain compliances, meet standards, access training, and provide fully qualified, quality work.

This "body" would also take away the need for COMPANIES to pay up to trades association for approvals that don't factually do very much at all, and place the requirements for "approval" on every single trades person out there, irrespective of company. The companies, in trun would then be able to employ only qualified people in the right places, and would have a clear structure for taking on new blood.

It would also, at a stroke, cut cowboy trading out.

I know there are a million "buts" and "what if's" to this, but in principle, it is the ONLY way, we're ever going to get past any of the issues which affect the state of our industry, and every other one. Simply, qualifications and approvals need to be on the individual and NOT on the company, and they need to be centralised under an impartial body of regulation and licencing.

The fees we pay as an industry, and the hidden costs all of us pay through employment - that's where the money for it comes from, as well as approximately one penny in every hundred on an electricity bill, and one penny in every hundred on a gas bill - and for the other trades, one penny in every hundred on council tax, as every occupied building has this charge.

Who can tell me why a National Register of trades, collated from what we have today from SIC codes, to C&G records, to approvals databases, could not be worked into a system that benefits everyone, from the bottom to the very top?

 

[Sparky Ninja]

although currently ahead in the pole i cant see how holding the 2391 in any way would show competence in service fuse removal its a test & inspect cert.

personally a dno course i still hold a valid pto and although not rocket science i believe a one day training course is best way forward on this.

2391 covers isolation and working on live supplies. Covering a topic such as this would only require one additional outcome to the course.

Having DNO run courses will just become another money maker with a load of unnecessary fat packed in it to fill a day.

 

[IQ Electrical]

This is the SP course description, one of our guys did it for a job in Berwick with multiple incomers and apart from a letter to IQ Electrical confirming authorisation, we received nothing else from SP (I was expecting at least a certificate/ID badge for the individual!

I recall that the 4 hours cost us around £200...

Powerlearning - Training Courses and Conference Facilities

 

[Mr.Si]

I was listening to Radio 2 on the way home from work the other night and there was a guy being interviewed by Simon Mayo. The guy was some one from an electricity board and they some how got on to the subject of inspections and re-sealing meters etc. He said that a few years ago it would have been an offence to do so, but these days they don't bother - too much effort. He said it's so hard to tamper with the meters these days, especially the electronic ones.

It heard that and thought of this thread! So there's my update.

 

[SMB]

I think a course run by the DNO would be a great idea, and, ofcourse, I don't think there should be a charge for said course. Spose the difficult part is......who qualifies for such a course?

Maybe thats where the 2391 qualification comes in?

Competence? How do you judge it though?

Ive only just passed my 2391, but I passed my 2360 (1+2) between 1985-1987. I am competent. I dont take risks. However, Im no more clever now to pull the main fuse than I was before having the 2391 cert. (infact, i learnt about pulling main fuses when I was 16 (with no qualifications), im now 42 (with bundles of qualifications).

I won't post here that I have 'pulled the fuse' but I will post that I have seen it happen many times, most rewires ive seen involve the fuse being pulled. You would be VERY STUPID to attempt to dis-connect and re-connect live tails (im sure we all agree)? Ive never seen anyone try to do it live. Ive also never heard of anyone getting into trouble from the DNO for pulling the main fuse. I also have never seen a main fuse that looked so dodgy that you wouldnt want to 'pull it', although im sure they must exsist (from what im reading, they certainly do exsist).

Im gona show a little bit of ignorance here, but please don't shoot me down in flames. Ive read that there are worries about flash overs and arcing when pulling the main fuse.....but why would that happen if the the consumer unit you are isolating is switched off? I do understand the danger of a deteriated main fuse though and the dangers that entail from that.

Im only just coming back into this type of work. Ive read that the DNO are installing isolators to assist with this issue, but im yet to see such an isolator.

The DNO isolator is the answer to this debate I think, but ofcourse, this is out of our hands.

I voted for the 'lets all sit a (free) course' idea.

Education is where its at.

(Please note........im on your side).

Ta.

 

[solo2771]

My oppinion is it should be a legal responcerbility for the dno to provide a cutout so no fuses need pulling.
Paul

 

[nickblake]

In my opinion from the meter to the CDU should be the responcabilty of the DNO as we are not allowed to remove the fuse , there for they should install a switch for isolation and change the tails where nessesary once this is done they could cover the fuses with a box and have the swtch on the out side simple ,also they should lable the fuse carrier exactly what is in it current rating 60amp 80 amp 100 amp and type BS88 / BS1361 etc

 

[ricardo123]

JIB Approved Electricians only.

 

[solo2771]

In my opinion from the meter to the CDU should be the responcabilty of the DNO as we are not allowed to remove the fuse , there for they should install a switch for isolation and change the tails where nessesary once this is done they could cover the fuses with a box and have the swtch on the out side simple ,also they should lable the fuse carrier exactly what is in it current rating 60amp 80 amp 100 amp and type BS88 / BS1361 etc

Anyone had carrier saying 100A but 60 A inside? lol they a joke
paul