Seem to find time wasters

[brodders97]

Hi all,

I’ve not long started out on my own, and so because of this I try to keep my quotes down to generate business to start, but I seem to spend half my time giving out estimations to people and that’s the end of it. I seem to only find tire kickers.

I know my prices are on the lower side, I believe I present myself well, chat to the customers a little while and get to know them etc, but when I sent the price out they’re never to be heard from again, and if they do reply, it’s always the same, too expensive!!!

For example, yesterday I priced one up, 2 days work. £800 in total including around £400 materials, to get told I’m too expensive… it seems most people want something for nothing.

Anyway, my question is, is this experienced by most tradesmen, or is it just my luck at the moment?

Cheers

 

[Welchyboy1]

After a while you develop a very acute sense of intuition about people

keep plugging away and I’m sure you’ll find some customers who are serious

youll always come across people who think everything’s expensive no matter the cost, not the customers you want at all

you don’t say where you are picking up these leads but maybe that’s something to do with it

where about s are you from? £200 per day is on the cheap side in most areas but I done the same when I was starting out

when you do get a decent customer come along and who pays on time make sure you look after them, they are like gold dust

 

[Dustydazzler]

I assume you are in the domestic market ?

I reckon I convert roughly 5 out of 10 quotes into paid work , sometimes a customer will say I am too expensive and we leave it at that. Sometimes they put the job on the back burner and I will offer to come round at a later date and re-quote etc.
I price to do a proper job , with good quality materials and I don't cut corners.

If they want cheap & nasty then I am not the sparks for them

 

[Rich54321]

Hi all,

I’ve not long started out on my own, and so because of this I try to keep my quotes down to generate business to start, but I seem to spend half my time giving out estimations to people and that’s the end of it. I seem to only find tire kickers.

I know my prices are on the lower side, I believe I present myself well, chat to the customers a little while and get to know them etc, but when I sent the price out they’re never to be heard from again, and if they do reply, it’s always the same, too expensive!!!

For example, yesterday I priced one up, 2 days work. £800 in total including around £400 materials, to get told I’m too expensive… it seems most people want something for nothing.

Anyway, my question is, is this experienced by most tradesmen, or is it just my luck at the moment?

Cheers

That is a great question. I remember that. Remember you have expenses, a van to run tax and insure, you have an inspection council to pay and adhere to, you also are insured. How does that make 200 a day expensive? What I did at that rate when I first started when I noticed the tyre kickers, you will know them, is give them a figure out of my head for labour and tell them that will be plus parts then give them a guestimate on parts but tell them they can supply them if they want. I do not have tyre kickers anymore, saved myself time pricing stuff, also my rate is now higher than yours and I have more work than I can deal with!

The highest JIB rate for an on the books electrician working for a company ATM is £17.92. You are basically the employer so you get about £7.00 an hour which is about £280 a week. To then pay everything else then pay your Tax . You are without a doubt not expensive. You could work for somebody on basic JIB rates with no hassle.

Stick with the work you are getting, get word of mouth and before you know it you will not have time to visit the time wasting tyre kickers!

Rich

 

[mattg4321]

I was just looking through my estimates earlier and couldn’t believe how few jobs I’ve lost over the past 9 months.

I’ve sent out around 50 estimates in that time and won all but 2. Both of those I didn’t hear back from - apparently too expensive. Both of those I hadn’t worked for before and hadn’t been recommended to them by others. Nearly all my work comes via word of mouth and I strongly suspect that most of the time I’m not pricing against anyone else. If the customer likes me the price doesn’t seem to matter too much. I normally charge £300-350 a day, plus a small mark up on materials.

This isn’t meant to knock you OP, you may not be doing anything wrong, you just haven’t got the right set of customers yet.

 

[brodders97]

Cheers for the replies guys. A lot of my work is word of mouth. All customers are happy with the work I complete, and then pass my name on etc, in my opinion it’s the best way to get business as people vouch for you, so I’d think anyway!
It’s a good idea to give the customers a list of parts to get though, if I gave them the specific parts to get and not some cheap sh**, then maybe they’ll realise that parts themselves aren’t cheap, let alone labour.

I agree that £200 is on the cheap side, I’m in north east Lincolnshire where the average daily rate (to my understanding) is around £230. I guess it’s a good sign to me that the customers I do work for keep coming back, and they pass my name on. I suspect the tyre kickers are just them kind of people and I’m best off not working with them anyhow

 

[littlespark]

Don’t listen to the ones that say you’re too expensive…. YOU are the professional… How do they know what you should charge? Do they do the same job as you?

They’ll complain about the cost of everything.

 

[JBW175]

You’re always going get people that complain about the price and will try knock you down a bit, they’re the ones you can do without.

Persevere, turn up on time, do a decent job, and your name will soon get about when people recommend you.

I think most of us have been in the boat at some time where we’ve struggled with pricing, or been too cheap, or indeed what the customer has perceived as too expensive.

Your price is your price, so stick with it.

Good luck in your new venture.

 

[brodders97]

Thanks all very much appreciated

 

[philectrical]

Let them pay peanuts, and get work by monkeys. Then you can go fix their work for your £200+ per day.

Anyone complaining about price is a poor customer and i would steer clear of them.

 

[WallaceP]

Keep at it and you will get there.
You may be pricing at a point where you are getting compared to joe bloggs in the pub who will do it for £100. Sometimes if you charge more people see the value in what you offer.
If anyone calls you I would recommend mentioning your rate on the phone before attending site to hopefully weed out some time wasters.
I tend not to do quotes and seem to be lucky with customers just wanting a good job and happy to pay what I ask.

 

[Welchyboy1]

I think what happens to most of us in the end is
If you keep trying to avoid cheap problem customers and really look after the good customers that you get, they hopefully recommend you to their friends and contacts who are usually of a similar nature to themselves and also end up people worth working for(not always mind) but usually I find this the case(and also true with the other contractors you associate with too)

Don’t work for or with bodgers, rip off merchants or cheap --- builders that pressure you to cut corners

Starting out though you may have to sacrifice some of your principles to some extent (I did at least) just to bring in the money to pay the bills

But eventually you end up with a solid customer base with regular work and you get to the stage where you have so much work coming in you really couldn’t care less if they like your price or not

That’s when it all starts to really pay off being self employed

Took me at least 10 years or more of working my way through hundreds of cheap, tight, PITA, unappreciative idiots to get there though lol

I found a funny thing happens too, the less you are bothered about winning the work, the more you seem to win! Anyone else find that?

 

[Dustydazzler]

And remember it is better to do less work at £400 per day than do more work at £200 per day

The aim of the game is profit not turnover

I know other trades like landscapers / garden fencers who price jobs to make £500 profit per day , they won't do the job for less

 

[Last plumber]

I think £200 per day for a spark sounds cheap to be honest.
As others have said, focus on your regular loyal customers as you gain them and look after them as best you can.
They are your bread and butter and they will recommend you to other like minded folk.
It takes years to build a customer base you can rely on but it is worth the effort.

We all (different trades) get a run of opportunities that fail for one reason or another but it's not always obvious why.

One thing to mull over:
Do these potential customers know what they're asking for and what they're getting?
Different tradesmen do things different ways and use different materials as you know, especially where there is no spec/design to follow. The majority of times when I have re-visited a customer who opted for a lower price they have ended up with something completely different to what I was aiming at.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I think £200 per day for a spark sounds cheap to be honest.
As others have said, focus on your regular loyal customers as you gain them and look after them as best you can.
They are your bread and butter and they will recommend you to other like minded folk.
It takes years to build a customer base you can rely on but it is worth the effort.

We all (different trades) get a run of opportunities that fail for one reason or another but it's not always obvious why.

One thing to mull over:
Do these potential customers know what they're asking for and what they're getting?
Different tradesmen do things different ways and use different materials as you know, especially where there is no spec/design to follow. The majority of times when I have re-visited a customer who opted for a lower price they have ended up with something completely different to what I was aiming at.

This is a key point imo

When I quote for a job , it includes everything right down to the last screw and nail

I know some trades when they quote for jobs it only includes certain things and other things will be added on at the end.
So on the face of it their quote will initially be cheaper but in the end they work out dearer than me

I know one firm who when they quote for rewires don;t include any mains smoke detectors , they charge these as extra as they go along at £175 per detector.
where as my rewire will include atlease a couple of mains smokes and one heat detector in my initial price...

 

[Last plumber]

This is a key point imo

When I quote for a job , it includes everything right down to the last screw and nail

I know some trades when they quote for jobs it only includes certain things and other things will be added on at the end.
So on the face of it their quote will initially be cheaper but in the end they work out dearer than me

I know one firm who when they quote for rewires don;t include any mains smoke detectors , they charge these as extra as they go along at £175 per detector.
where as my rewire will include atlease a couple of mains smokes and one heat detector in my initial price...

I just lost out on a plant room refurb with 2 x commercial boilers, plate heat ex, pumps and controls to someone who gave a 'significantly lower price' and fitted a Combi.

 

[brodders97]

This is a key point imo

When I quote for a job , it includes everything right down to the last screw and nail

I know some trades when they quote for jobs it only includes certain things and other things will be added on at the end.
So on the face of it their quote will initially be cheaper but in the end they work out dearer than me

I know one firm who when they quote for rewires don;t include any mains smoke detectors , they charge these as extra as they go along at £175 per detector.
where as my rewire will include atlease a couple of mains smokes and one heat detector in my initial price...

Same here. I generally estimate the wiring needed and charge for that length etc and for the likes of screws, this is covered by a 20% markup. When I give out estimations I account for the things I’ll have to buy myself, like a new CU etc. but for the likes of glands, clips and screws, this is covered by a markup.

I often get people who want to pay for the materials themselves, and that’s fine they can go ahead and do this, but I express that if these parts fail, then I won’t be coming back to sort them for free. If I buy the parts and they fail, it’s on me for picking out crappy gear.

 

[brodders97]

Here’s my latest little rant!!

The other week I spent an hour or so giving a quote to some guy. The person lives in India and he has bought this old bank, and him and his business partner have turned it in to 4x 2 bed flats. He requires an EICR for all of them, so I come in and quote for the job. “Thanks a lot will be in touch”, 2 weeks pass and I just drop him a text asking if there’s an update.
“Hi, the builder completed the EICRs as part of the project he was doing”

I wonder how legitimate this EICR is… would he be insured if one of the tenants had an electrocution and died? If they wanted to look back at the EICR and found out it was the equivalent of the toilet roll in my bathroom!!

This is the kind of stuff I’m dealing with, it makes it hard to want to carry on to be honest. I spent about an hour out of my day trying to build a relationship with this guy and give him a quote, when I could have been fitting a new outside light for a little old dear who would pay me there and then!!!

 

[littlespark]

That’s the risk we all take.

You think giving a fellow businessman a little free time, thinking you’ll get a good return with future work, where you can easily claw back that missing hour…. And nothing happens.

It takes time to weed out the bad payers, the non-payers, the time wasters…. And you learn to spot the little red flags…. But…..

There is no hard and fast rule to know who will be a good customer, and you might get stung a few times in the process of finding out.

Stay positive. Stay professional.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

It sounds unfair but part of the price (good) customer A pays, is to cover your costs of wasted time and effort caused by (bad) customer B. Customer-induced losses are just part of the ongoing cost of keeping your business running, like insurance or vehicle maintenance.

 

[Dustydazzler]

It sounds unfair but part of the price (good) customer A pays, is to cover your costs of wasted time and effort caused by (bad) customer B. Customer-induced losses are just part of the ongoing cost of keeping your business running, like insurance or vehicle maintenance.

This is sadly another fact of business

Your 'price' has to factor in a certain amount of time wasted on non payers , slow payers and complete time wasters

It also has to factor in a certain tolerance for when some jobs go badly wrong and end up taking you twice as long as you first planned

I think this is a fact that joe public don't take into consideration when you turn up to their house to price a job , its not just 'their job' you are pricing but you are factoring several other factors on top

 

[nicebutdim]

It sounds unfair but part of the price (good) customer A pays, is to cover your costs of wasted time and effort caused by (bad) customer B. Customer-induced losses are just part of the ongoing cost of keeping your business running, like insurance or vehicle maintenance.

Pretty much how part of the cost of retail goods (especially online) covers customer returns, thefts etc. The aim is to turn a profit and it's never as straightforward as a simple mark up on each transaction.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Going way back to when I was a teen ager and I worked for a big retailer , I am sure I read in the handbook that roughly 3.5%-4% of the rrp price was to cover for 'shrinkage' which is basically theft , breakages and faulty returns etc

 

[LukeD]

People hate seeing prices going up. I binned a client that had used me for 23 years and both of us did ok from it . mentioned I was increasing my call outs and "out of hours " charges to be told they thought it was too much . Fine , they have had the likes of Pimlicos and a few others for urgent works and really feel the pain .They where so use to me turning up any day of the year for a reasonable fee. And that included a Christmas day once ! It means I have more time for others who will pay the increase >And i added on some for the extra cost of petrol etc .Now I am wanting a clear £50 a week extra to "aid the energy crisis " !

 

[Rich54321]

I think what happens to most of us in the end is
If you keep trying to avoid cheap problem customers and really look after the good customers that you get, they hopefully recommend you to their friends and contacts who are usually of a similar nature to themselves and also end up people worth working for(not always mind) but usually I find this the case(and also true with the other contractors you associate with too)

Don’t work for or with bodgers, rip off merchants or cheap --- builders that pressure you to cut corners

Starting out though you may have to sacrifice some of your principles to some extent (I did at least) just to bring in the money to pay the bills

But eventually you end up with a solid customer base with regular work and you get to the stage where you have so much work coming in you really couldn’t care less if they like your price or not

That’s when it all starts to really pay off being self employed

Took me at least 10 years or more of working my way through hundreds of cheap, tight, PITA, unappreciative idiots to get there though lol

I found a funny thing happens too, the less you are bothered about winning the work, the more you seem to win! Anyone else find that?

Yes and the more you do not get the more you think I would not have time to do it anyway!

 

[mainline]

Thanks all very much appreciated

There are also some people who think the higher the price, the better the job.

 

[brodders97]

There are also some people who think the higher the price, the better the job.

I have heard this actually, I thought living in the area I live in, keeping prices low would appeal to the masses. I guess by doing this I’m attracting the wrong kind of people haha. Time for a switch up perhaps

 

[LukeD]

Charge a good price.turn up ON time and communicate well. People are happy to pay for good service

 

[LukeD]

And DONT accept cash .... that makes anyone look un professional

 

[Pretty Mouth]

And DONT accept cash .... that makes anyone look un professional

Not sure I agree with this Luke. Lots of people like to pay with cash still, particularly older folk. Makes you look unaccommodating to refuse it.

 

[catdog1121]

Not sure I agree with this Luke. Lots of people like to pay with cash still, particularly older folk. Makes you look unaccommodating to refuse it.

I agree, especially with smaller jobs.. I would say to the OP I charge an hourly rate, doing quotes is a pain, I do it for some customers but it takes too much time, after a while though you will especially not not massive jobs get to know roughly how much the materials will be (Although I still always seem to underestimate how stupidly expensive materials are). So I tend to just say there and then, I would estimate parts will be about X, plus I think it will probably take me about X amount of time @ X pounds per hour, obviously if I find unexpected things then it might take longer but I explain to them that I find thats the fairest way, I only charge for hours I am onsite, I dont lark around, I find its just the fairest way to charge.. I'm not the cheapest, not the most expensive but I would say I probably get around 90% of the work...

Being prompt, if you can give them a price there and then not mess around you often find they might go oooh thats more than I thought then you can explain normally the thing that catches people out is cost of materials, they just dont realise how expensive materials are, gone are the day where the majourity of the cost was in labour, now it seems like the majourity is in materials.. Be friendly, reliable, give them a date you can do it, make it the easy option for them... I am also a landlord and so deal with trades, you know what the worst thing I find is having people say "Ok yeah ill try and drop in at some point ill give you a ring", I dont know if im going to hear from them again so I try other people, if you say "Yeah no problem are you about this evening ill pop round take a quick look for you, work out what is needed and give you a rough price".. People come off the phone and its like a relief that its sorted and they don't phone other people, you then are more likely to get the work..

You will always get some cheap bottoms.. think my last rejection which was a while ago was replace two consumer units in a flat (on peak and off peak), from old rewireable fuses after it failed landlord EICR (That I didnt do).. I came in at a reasonable price, not overly cheap but it wasnt the nicest of jobs, customers response... "Nah I can't afford it, its ok I wont bother, ive met the regulations as I have had an EICR done", I tried to educate her that because it failed she needed it done but she assured me she was correct...

Have you thought about doing any charity work if you have spare time, I have a job to fit a defibrulator for a charity, I am doing it at cost price (Materials plus a little bit to cover my expenses like insurance etc), my company name gets put on the defibrulator and there is going to be an opening with some press releases etc with my company name, puts you out there in the local community..

 

[LukeD]

Not sure I agree with this Luke. Lots of people like to pay with cash still, particularly older folk. Makes you look unaccommodating to refuse it.

There might be times when cash has to be accepted .But in 2022 its rare and I never entertain it as a "payment method " when giving quotes or chatting with clients . "cash" translates too easily as "Avoiding paying tax etc " !

 

[nicebutdim]

There might be times when cash has to be accepted .But in 2022 its rare and I never entertain it as a "payment method " when giving quotes or chatting with clients . "cash" translates too easily as "Avoiding paying tax etc " !

World of difference between a 'cash job' and accepting payment in cash. Method of payment is of little relevance when the customer is furnished with the same sort of invoice as every other customer and there's cetainly nothing dodgy about accepting cash.

 

[mainline]

World of difference between a 'cash job' and accepting payment in cash. Method of payment is of little relevance when the customer is furnished with the same sort of invoice as every other customer and there's cetainly nothing dodgy about accepting cash.

Wonder what would happen after giving a customer an invoice, and they say they haven't got a bank account and only deal in cash ?

 

[mainline]

There might be times when cash has to be accepted .But in 2022 its rare and I never entertain it as a "payment method " when giving quotes or chatting with clients . "cash" translates too easily as "Avoiding paying tax etc " !

Awkward to avoid paying tax if you are supplying invoices.

 

[nicebutdim]

Awkward to avoid paying tax if you are supplying invoices.

That's the point.

If a customer expects cash in hand, with no vat, it's easy to put them straight. To be fair, there is some legislation to comply with if receiving sums of cash above a certain amount, but that's no issue with jobs running only to several hundred pounds.

 

[LukeD]

In the last 3 years Ive only been offered cash 3-4 times and always for those "Saturday morning quick jobs" that dont get to much more than £120 etc .Everyone seems to be happy to pay by bank transfer or card ( iZettle)

 

[mainline]

In the last 3 years Ive only been offered cash 3-4 times and always for those "Saturday morning quick jobs" that dont get to much more than £120 etc .Everyone seems to be happy to pay by bank transfer or card ( iZettle)

Bloody technology and the ease of payments, I miss the days of feeling a wad of cash in my pocket, now all I feel is my leg

 

[LukeD]

Anyone accepting bitcoin yet ? !!!

 

[JBW175]

Anyone accepting bitcoin yet ? !!!

I’d quite happily take $BTC as a payment method, I’m well into my crypto, trading digital assets are becoming a lot more popular these days.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I’d quite happily take $BTC as a payment method, I’m well into my crypto, trading digital assets are becoming a lot more popular these days.

I know a couple builders , plumbers and sparks who will accept crypto-currency as payment from certain clients

 

[JBW175]

I know a couple builders , plumbers and sparks who will accept crypto-currency as payment from certain clients

I don’t blame them, I’d certainly have no qualms in accepting it. Digital money is the future in my eyes.

I use my phone or watch to tap and pay for most things these days, paper money will eventually be a thing of the past and crypto will play a part in it.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I don’t blame them, I’d certainly have no qualms in accepting it. Digital money is the future in my eyes.

I use my phone or watch to tap and pay for most things these days, paper money will eventually be a thing of the past and crypto will play a part in it.

Cyber money will be the 'new' cash in hand

 

[JBW175]

Cyber money will be the 'new' cash in hand

But getting back onto the subject of cash, I’ll readily accept it as a payment.

It’s when people offer it up as a payment option expecting you to do the job cheaper. Sorry mate, my price is my price, how you want to pay is completely up to you.

 

[mattg4321]

It’s more expensive for me as a business to handle cash than a bank transfer.

 

[Dustydazzler]

But getting back onto the subject of cash, I’ll readily accept it as a payment.

It’s when people offer it up as a payment option expecting you to do the job cheaper. Sorry mate, my price is my price, how you want to pay is completely up to you.

In the past if my initial quote was say £220 for a quick job , I 'sometimes' would take say £200 'for cash'

But not so much now as most people prefer to pay bank transfer and very rarely offer up 'cash in hand'

I do know some builders who will knock 10% OFF for cash but they are all a bit wheeler dealer types

 

[Risteard]

It’s more expensive for me as a business to handle cash than a bank transfer.

Exactly. There should be a surcharge rather than discount for cash. I accept payment in cash but certainly don't encourage it.

 

[mainline]

Exactly. There should be a surcharge rather than discount for cash. I accept payment in cash but certainly don't encourage it.

If anyone has spare cash, give it to me and i'll put it in your bank account less the %5 handling

 

[LukeD]

It’s more expensive for me as a business to handle cash than a bank transfer.

It’s more expensive for me as a business to handle cash than a bank transfer.

Plus the time to go to the bank.....

 

[nicebutdim]

Plus the time to go to the bank.....

For large amounts it can be a pain, but smaller amounts I add to petty cash and keep it on hand.

I've always said that I'll accept any form of payment feasible, including Japanese Yen, provided all costs are covered, but I'd draw the line at Vietnamese Dong.


Different types of payment will be more prevalent in certain places and I'd expect people large cities to be more inclined to pay by card/apple/bank transfer etc than country folk.