**Show Us Your Installs!!!**

[Spudnik]

Right chaps,

Due to a few unavoidable issues, we have lost the original thread and pics etc.

Sorry about that!!!

So, if you want to re-upload your pics then great, if not, give us something new!


Cheers!!

 

[Knobhead]

Picture 9, is that a dual bus-bar sytem?

 

[Outspoken]

Picture 9, is that a dual bus-bar sytem?

Yes Tony, two separate feeds from separate Tx's via individual Rotary UPS systems with auto changeover in the event of failure, and this is all backed up by individual LV Gen sets but the site also has 15MVA 11kV generating capacity in case we lost the feeds from the outside world..

Here are those other pictures I mentioned in email Tony..




Bear in mind these are snagging pictures so these are not finished items, all the cables require identifiers attached, including the HV or they need tidying in some way, but they are OK for what you need Tony.

The comms in the top 4 pics is the HV/LV monitoring/switching infrastructure that also runs the live mimic boards we have for ACB and MCCB positions and status

 

[Knobhead]

Now I’m retired I envy you.

Heavy power alongside plant control PLC programming were my favourites.

 

[High Tower]

Nice to see this kind of stuff, it's well above the kind of stuff I do!! And it's nice to see people taking such pride!

 

[Tsakitsan]

And because I want to keep my last promise, that I will upload some more college-level ART! (Yes! I consider it art! )
Here are some 20mm A1 ring final circuit installation. The conduit is 20mm seam welded galvanised heavy gauge steel. And the sockets boxes are metal clud surface (MK logic+ I think). For the trainees like me: The A1 ring final circuit should have 2.5mm cable with a 32amperes BS60898 type B circuit braker, and it can potentially cover 100m^2 of space.
Oh I forgot to mention that we have a switched fused connection unit too.. But it does ΝΟΤ feed an appliance.



Sorry for any mistakes and thank you!

 

[Outspoken]

Couple of observations;

1. The layout of the conduit should have been considered so that they did not need to cross
2. Conductor length needs attention, if you look at one of the browns in the spur you can see where it has been rubbed when the faceplate screwed back.

I appreciate a lot comes with experience, but it's things like the scuffed cable that can cause you problems both in college and the real world, I would be none to impressed when testing a new install to find that.

 

[High Tower]

Couple of observations;

1. The layout of the conduit should have been considered so that they did not need to cross
2. Conductor length needs attention, if you look at one of the browns in the spur you can see where it has been rubbed when the faceplate screwed back.

I appreciate a lot comes with experience, but it's things like the scuffed cable that can cause you problems both in college and the real world, I would be none to impressed when testing a new install to find that.

From what I remember, they must cross as part of the assessment, and a large portion of the marks are dependent on your ability to set the conduit neatly

 

[High Tower]

A couple of things.......

If you were to leave a little more length in the CU then you would be able to get the cables a little neater.

The fly leads in the accessories shouldn't be coiled

You do not really need the fly leads as you have cpc's run in and the conduit is earthed at the CU, and the back boxes are fixed lug. The only time you really need fly leads is if you have no cpc's and you are using the conduit as your means of earthing.

These are just pointers and are not criticisms!!, overall it's a nice install and a bloody good job compared to a lot of college work I see!

 

[Outspoken]

From what I remember, they must cross as part of the assessment, and a large portion of the marks are dependent on your ability to set the conduit neatly

You have a point there High Tower, its been a very long time since I was at college, should have considered that!

 

[Engineer54]

I would be asking, why you have pulled CPC's into a galvanised conduit system in the first place?? All your achieving there, is filling up the conduit with needless copper!! lol!

 

[Billythekid]

I would be asking, why you have pulled CPC's into a galvanised conduit system in the first place?? All your achieving there, is filling up the conduit with needless copper!! lol!

Not this again!

Unfortunately it's true, this is common practice now. You don't need to tell me why it's un-neccessary/stupid/borderlining criminal (cost wise), as I already know - this is merely what clients/designers/specs ask for. I've questioned their reasoning/sanity many a time, nearly always told "just incase", or "that's how they want it". Colleges/Training centres are obviously employing the same tactics now.

The mind boggles.

Regards

Billy

 

[Engineer54]

Then they are all bloody idiots!! ''Just in Case'' has no relevance in electrical design concepts!!

 

[pennywise]

Then they are all bloody idiots!! ''Just in Case'' has no relevance in electrical design concepts!!

So why would redundancy be built into some installations, other than for "just in case" situations

 

[STONEZZZ]

Started new job today....lots of trunking, tray, conduit, basket, skirting trunking,dado, ect ect ect .
and I have to fit all this in a 100mm space above a suspend ceiling!

 

[STONEZZZ]

Here are some more pics..... Finished at the end of August ...

 

[Knobhead]

What is it?

Is there a prize for the first correct answer?

 

[Billythekid]

Then they are all bloody idiots!! ''Just in Case'' has no relevance in electrical design concepts!!

Couldn't agree more!

I see your point, but would argue (forgetting relevant Laws/Guidance) that a very high percentage of design is for "just in case" scenarios. Fire Alarms, Intruder Alarms, Controls, Cut-outs, E-stops, UPS, back up Generators, less abled alarms, could all be placed in the "just in case" bracket.

I like this "nanny" state of affairs as little as the next man. . .

If you can't work out that it's raining or dark, should you be driving?
Yet vehicles are coming equipped with rain/light sensors.

If you are unable to recognise if you remove a smoke alarms supply that it will no longer operate, do you deserve to live?
Yet we go to great lengths to ensure the supply will remain on, and install back up batteries.

If we carry on supporting this then our already sullied gene pool is going to become a whole lot worse!

When does it stop being a "life safety system", and become a "they are clearly imbeciles, lets protect them from their own stupidity", or indeed "just incase"?

Was it you or Tony that wrote "never underestimate the ingenuity of a stupid person"? Unfortunately this could not apply more to design - "just incase".

Regards

Billy

 

[Engineer54]

but would argue (forgetting relevant Laws/Guidance) that a very high percentage of design is for "just in case" scenarios. Fire Alarms, Intruder Alarms, Controls, Cut-outs, E-stops, UPS, back up Generators, less abled alarms, could all be placed in the "just in case" bracket.

You'd be wrong, each of these systems quoted, have their own laid down design criteria's, And again the ''Just in Case'' aspect, has no relevance within those laid down design and risk assessment concepts...

 

[Engineer54]

Started new job today....lots of trunking, tray, conduit, basket, skirting trunking,dado, ect ect ect .
and I have to fit all this in a 100mm space above a suspend ceiling!

I can't see a single item of the above in these photo's!! lol!!

 

[Outspoken]

Then they are all bloody idiots!! ''Just in Case'' has no relevance in electrical design concepts!!

It's designed into the spec of an installation, "Just in case" some numpty who thinks he knows it all and more than the Regs comes along and replaces a section of steel conduit with plastic because it's easier or gets around the problem of threading a section that may be installed through a floor etc..

Don't say it doesn't happen, seen it way too many times.

Further, Reg 543.2.7 states

"Where the protective conductor is formed by metal conduit, trunking or ducting or the metal sheath and/or armour of a cable, the earthing terminal of each accessory shall be connected by a separate protective conductor to an earthing terminal incorporated in the associated box or other enclosure"

Therefore a fly lead would need to be added to all accessory boxes within the conduit system, but what happens when you then introduce connections via flexible conduit, do you rely on a connection to the rear of a BESA box to provide your circuit earth? Great in theory, but many installation get abused, especially flexible conduit connections, and this could get damaged.

Further, Reg 543.2.9 states

Except where the circuit protective conductor is formed by a metal covering or enclosure containing all of the conductors of the ring, the circuit protective conductor of every ring final circuit shall also be run in the form of a ring having both ends connected to the earthing terminal at the point of origin of the circuit.

Now I can envisage plenty of scenarios whereby the conduit may not be continuous, such as when you use the conduit system to feed several rings and one or more actually terminate in Dado trunking, which being plastic is not good as a CPC. This creates a discontinuous metal cpc and thus to comply with the regs you would have to run a separate CPC into the circuit in this situation. You also need to be aware that perhaps the metal is not continuous in all instances and it is possible that in the future the metal conduit system could be broken into and thus become discontinuous.

Lastly, is it really that much of an issue to pull in a separate earth when your pulling cables in anyway? At least you know for sure you have a compliant cpc.

 

[pennywise]

I can't wait for what's going to come

 

[Billythekid]

It's designed into the spec of an installation, "Just in case" some numpty who thinks he knows it all and more than the Regs comes along and replaces a section of steel conduit with plastic because it's easier or gets around the problem of threading a section that may be installed through a floor etc..

Damn, that would have been a better explanation than my drawn out, convoluted one.

Regards

Billy

 

[Engineer54]

I really can't believe what i'm reading here, the what if this, what if that, scenario's is totally irrelevant, you install any system installation as to the project drawings, what happens after, is not your problem or responsibility!! Your making up these scenarios to suit your argument, but frankly in the real world there is no argument to provide pointless CPC provisions where none is required or needed, ...end of!!

Fly leads are fly leads, of course they are required at accessories and fittings. Even if flexible conduits were completely plastic, what would be the trouble using the threaded earth connection of a BESA or any other box/enclosure for your CPC connection to equipment via short lengths of flexible conduit?? Been used successfully for this purpose, for connecting say motors and other required equipment for bloody years, so what's suddenly changed now then??

If sections are removed and replaced with PVC containment, then it is the responsibility of the electrician making those changes, to provide CPC provision. Same goes for any other alteration to an existing metal containment system. None warrant running in separate CPC's to the system in the first instance...

Were running in miles of metal containment systems, and when i say miles i mean miles!! Do you really think it makes any economic sense to run separate CPC's?? Bloody hell, the size of the conduits would need upgrading to the next size in most cases, just to keep within the fill restrictions. Needless to say, there will be no separate CPC's in our metal containment systems (trunking and conduits). You and others, that are foolish enough to do so, can get on and do whatever you like, ...all i can say, something has gone very wrong somewhere along the line on metal containment systems in the UK!! You've all gone stark raving Mad!! lol!!

 

[johnboy6083]

I really can't believe what i'm reading here, the what if this, what if that, scenario's is totally irrelevant, you install any system installation as to the project drawings, what happens after, is not your problem or responsibility!! Your making up these scenarios to suit your argument, but frankly in the real world there is no argument to provide pointless CPC provisions where none is required or needed, ...end of!!

Fly leads are fly leads, of course they are required at accessories and fittings. Even if flexible conduits were completely plastic, what would be the trouble using the threaded earth connection of a BESA or any other box/enclosure for your CPC connection to equipment via short lengths of flexible conduit?? Been used successfully for this purpose, for connecting say motors and other required equipment for bloody years, so what's suddenly changed now then??

If sections are removed and replaced with PVC containment, then it is the responsibility of the electrician making those changes, to provide CPC provision. Same goes for any other alteration to an existing metal containment system. None warrant running in separate CPC's to the system in the first instance...

Were running in miles of metal containment systems, and when i say miles i mean miles!! Do you really think it makes any economic sense to run separate CPC's?? Bloody hell, the size of the conduits would need upgrading to the next size in most cases, just to keep within the fill restrictions. Needless to say, there will be no separate CPC's in our metal containment systems (trunking and conduits). You and others, that are foolish enough to do so, can get on and do whatever you like, ...all i can say, something has gone very wrong somewhere along the line on metal containment systems in the UK!! You've all gone stark raving Mad!! lol!!

I agree with the above. Conduit, trunking, chassis of switchgear ect are all suitable for use as CPC, and I don't see a problem with continuing that. I do however see a problem with bad workmanship, but the same goes for systems where a CPC has been pulled in, any numpty could break the continuity with a bad termination. Testing should weed this out, but we cant guarantee we have seen everything.

 

[Billythekid]

...all i can say, something has gone very wrong somewhere along the line on metal containment systems in the UK!! You've all gone stark raving Mad!! lol!!

Come on, I'm sure we've always been stark raving Mad?

As said, in a contractual stance you're absolutely right (you can only be held responsible for your actions, etc.). However more and more pressure is being applied to designers to cover all eventualities, even if this means designing in costs!

I see both sides of the argument (I'm going to get a splinter from sitting on this fence). I personally feel that this "dumbing down" is to the detriment of every professional within this industry, but it's happening, and I can't see it stopping. Look at it this way:- If you're the client and have your own facilities management team, would you over spec to compensate for lack of knowledge and understanding within your team, or would you spec minimum, and pay professionals to carry out alterations?

I'm not saying it's right, only that it happens.

Regards

Billy

 

[Knobhead]

I personally feel that this "dumbing down" is to the detriment of every professional within this industry, but it's happening, and I can't see it stopping.

So do we accept this dumbing down or try to make common sense prevail?

If the collages held up high standards and not just focus on the quick buck we may get somewhere. The collages will churn out as many ill-informed installers as they can.

To lower the price you have to lower the standard. A basic fact of economics. You want a good containment system it costs, DI Joe will bodge it together and probably add to the cost.

 

[Billythekid]

So do we accept this dumbing down or try to make common sense prevail?

If the collages held up high standards and not just focus on the quick buck we may get somewhere. The collages will churn out as many ill-informed installers as they can.

To lower the price you have to lower the standard. A basic fact of economics. You want a good containment system it costs, DI Joe will bodge it together and probably add to the cost.

Trying to get me off the fence eh? :nono:

I haven't accepted a thing, infact I left my last job because of a similar reason. I am seriously contemplating not going back, I am sick of watching the cost managers destroy the industry that I loved. I fear there is no way for common sense to prevail.

Colleges are a business, they couldn't care less about the standards - only making profit (although there are still a few lecturers that care).

That was my fleeting comment "that's the problem, it's down to a price, not up to standard!" (with some profanities, obviously :lipsrsealed2.

So here I am :boat: (up the creek. . .)

Regards

Billy

 

[Knobhead]

You looking for this place?

 

[Billythekid]

You looking for this place?

^^^ This is brilliant :smilielol5:

 

[Knobhead]

http://www.****creekpaddleshop.com/

Fill in the ****

 

[ipf]

You looking for this place?

Brochure come free with every Electrical Trainee course ?

 

[Guest55]

You looking for this place?

i've got an account there.
15% off XL sizes
;-)

 

[Outspoken]

I really can't believe what i'm reading here, the what if this, what if that, scenario's is totally irrelevant, you install any system installation as to the project drawings, what happens after, is not your problem or responsibility!! Your making up these scenarios to suit your argument, but frankly in the real world there is no argument to provide pointless CPC provisions where none is required or needed, ...end of!!

Fly leads are fly leads, of course they are required at accessories and fittings. Even if flexible conduits were completely plastic, what would be the trouble using the threaded earth connection of a BESA or any other box/enclosure for your CPC connection to equipment via short lengths of flexible conduit?? Been used successfully for this purpose, for connecting say motors and other required equipment for bloody years, so what's suddenly changed now then??

If sections are removed and replaced with PVC containment, then it is the responsibility of the electrician making those changes, to provide CPC provision. Same goes for any other alteration to an existing metal containment system. None warrant running in separate CPC's to the system in the first instance...

Were running in miles of metal containment systems, and when i say miles i mean miles!! Do you really think it makes any economic sense to run separate CPC's?? Bloody hell, the size of the conduits would need upgrading to the next size in most cases, just to keep within the fill restrictions. Needless to say, there will be no separate CPC's in our metal containment systems (trunking and conduits). You and others, that are foolish enough to do so, can get on and do whatever you like, ...all i can say, something has gone very wrong somewhere along the line on metal containment systems in the UK!! You've all gone stark raving Mad!! lol!!

I'm curious as to which part of "Designed into the spec" you singularly failed to understand. If it is designed into the spec then you have to install it, it's what you're paid to do...Thats why they are designers and we are installers..

We know what we are doing and let them think they do, the world is then a harmonious place of less stress. Whether it is right or wrong is IRRELEVANT, if they spec they want a cpc in every flipping conduit who the faff am I to argue, I get paid anyway...

 

[Engineer54]

The only thing i've failed to understand, is what sort of morons are writing/producing these spec's, that call for CPC's in metal containment systems!!

My comments above, were towards your leaning on the side of CPC's now being required in a metallic containment system.

 

[Outspoken]

The only thing i've failed to understand, is what sort of morons are writing/producing these spec's, that call for CPC's in metal containment systems!!

My comments above, were towards your leaning on the side of CPC's now being required in a metallic containment system.

I was not leaning either way, I simply reproduced two of the relevant Regs for people to read and decide for themselves and state why sparks install them, because they are in the specs of an install and so they install them as required.

You can read it any way you want.

 

[Engineer54]

I was not leaning either way, I simply reproduced two of the relevant Regs for people to read and decide for themselves and state why sparks install them, because they are in the specs of an install and so they install them as required.

You can read it any way you want.

I know it's early here and have just woken up, but i'm sure if you read your post again, you can't blame anyone for reading it as if your supporting, rather than just complying!!


As for your last comment on that same post, you would have to be totally incompetent at installing metal containment systems, not to have a fully complying system ''Without'' the separate CPC's...

 

[Tsakitsan]

A couple of things.......

If you were to leave a little more length in the CU then you would be able to get the cables a little neater.

The fly leads in the accessories shouldn't be coiled

You do not really need the fly leads as you have cpc's run in and the conduit is earthed at the CU, and the back boxes are fixed lug. The only time you really need fly leads is if you have no cpc's and you are using the conduit as your means of earthing.

These are just pointers and are not criticisms!!, overall it's a nice install and a bloody good job compared to a lot of college work I see!

Thank you about the observations! I understand that the fly leads are actually optional but I was instructed to do it that way and I would have been marked down for not putting them. I know you'll understand. oh! And I coiled them because... I just wanted to do so (it looked more "cool" when it was not stretched) . I cannot understand why not to do that.. To avoid inductance from being produced or something? avoid pressuring the cable?

Couple of observations;

1. The layout of the conduit should have been considered so that they did not need to cross
2. Conductor length needs attention, if you look at one of the browns in the spur you can see where it has been rubbed when the faceplate screwed back.

I appreciate a lot comes with experience, but it's things like the scuffed cable that can cause you problems both in college and the real world, I would be none to impressed when testing a new install to find that.

Thank you about your observations, I did realise that the line at the switched fused connection unit was rubbed only after you told me!

And for the general arguement about installing a separate cpc inside the already earthed CU, I just wanted to say that is an ACOP .. NOT compulsory as everyone knows but it can be used against you in the court of law "JUST IN CASE" something did actually go wrong.
So firstly, if you are against the "just in case scenarios" and secondly you are actually in a situation where you'll be in the position of selecting the wiring method, just don't use it.
Otherwise just do. :gunsmilie:

 

[Knobhead]

And I coiled them because... I just wanted to do so (it looked more "cool" when it was not stretched) . I cannot understand why not to do that.. To avoid inductance from being produced or something?

The very reason I would make you take any coiled earth bond out!

 

[High Tower]

The very reason I would make you take any coiled earth bond out!

Couldn't agree more, and even simpler terms are that If they are coiled then they take up a lot more room and you are going to struggle to
Pin the accessory back without trapping / nicking / catching cables

 

[High Tower]

And further to the debate that has gone on, please let's not confuse the subject for the op! We all know that E54 is correct in that a continuous metatarsal containment system does not require a seperate cpc.......... However!, in the words of E54 ("if it was one of my projects it would be done..............")

As everyone is quick to point out, if its in the spec or if the engineer demands it then it must be done that way. Well on this occasion the spec set by the college and C&G calls for seperate cpc's so seperate cpc's is what the op has installed.

I suspect the reason they do it this way is so that they can teach 6 wire Rfc's and metal containment at the same time.