TT: A bit of guidance please

[uksparks]

Hi,

Sorry about the quality of the photos, it was very dark in the garage.

Went to a job this morning, to quote on a new consumer unit, see photos below.

It's a TT earthing system, 8 way 3036 board, needs new bonding etc. Main earthing conductor is only 6mm at present, rod is just outside the garage against the wall, no idea how big it is yet.

Its got an overhead supply, two phases, but only one is used.

All the old junk on the right is coming out as its not used, this was on the second phase, it was for storage heaters.

Ill be quite honest, I have never done a TT before so would like a few pointers.

I'm going to replace the board for a split board, thats not an issue, its just the earthing thats the issue.

I did a Zs at the board just to see what the readings were like and you can see the photos below.


A couple of questions...

1. being a TT, i understand it needs an upfront RCD? Yes? 300ma?

2. I took a PSCC and PEFC reading and the PEFC was a lot lower than I had expected and want to know if its normal so to speak, obviously the fault current comes down the higher the resistance.

3. Im permitted 200 Ohms on Ze, so 8.3Ohms is good.

This was with the earth connected, it was only a brief look, so not an exact measurement.

PSCC (L - N)
0.19 Ohms
1.3kA PFC

PEFC (L - E)
8.33 Ohms
30A PFC

Is there anything I should have to think about it addition to the norm with a TNC-S / TNS supply? I can't think of anything other than the RCD.

I felt the 30A was low on the PEFC, but then again, its got an RCD.



I can only assume this was an RCD as it tripped when I did a high current Zs on the board.



Miscellaneous...

 

[guest119]

PSCC and PEFC are both current, not ohms.

boydy

 

[uksparks]

PSCC and PEFC are both current, not ohms.

boydy

Sorry yes I know that, it was just how I noted it down, Ill ammend it now.

 

[Octopus]

Use a plastic CU and you won't need an upfront RCD

 

[uksparks]

Use a plastic CU and you won't need an upfront RCD

Ok, can you explain why this is please? I was under the impression the RCD upfront was to protect the tails? That sounds wrong doesn't it, sorry having never touched a TT I don't really know the full details.

 

[Octopus]

Ok, can you explain why this is please? I was under the impression the RCD upfront was to protect the tails? That sounds wrong doesn't it, sorry having never touched a TT I don't really know the full details.

My understanding is that if the tails are surface mounted, and the CU is plastic dual rcds' or RCBO's are OK.

Only done a couple but this was my method both times

 

[trev]

1 S type RCD needed.
2 PEFC will be lower for the reasons you state. Not too sure why you're asking about it mate.
3 8.3 0hms is a lot better than 200 BUT with a bit of effort you can get this to >1ohm
I'll pm you my number so we can have a chat if you want.

 

[telectrix]

the reason for an upfront RCD on a TT system with a metal CU is to trip out the supply in case the tails fault to the CU metal. obviously a 30A PEFC will not take out the OCPD. that "RCD" is a VOELCB. piece of junk.

 

[HandySparks]

2. I took a PSCC and PEFC reading and the PEFC was a lot lower than I had expected and want to know if its normal so to speak, obviously the fault current comes down the higher the resistance.

PEFC (L - E)
8.33 Ohms
30A PFC

Check the calc for yourself. The values you show imply a measured supply voltage of 250V. So a Zs of 8.33 ohms will give an earth fault current of 8.33A. (I=V/R)

3. Im permitted 200 Ohms on Ze, so 8.3Ohms is good.

This was with the earth connected, it was only a brief look, so not an exact measurement.

You need to re-measure the rod alone. It's likely that the installation is being 'earthed' by gas or water pipework and that the earth fault loop resistance via the rod will be considerably higher.

 

[telectrix]

Check the calc for yourself. The values you show imply a measured supply voltage of 250V. So a Zs of 8.33 ohms will give an earth fault current of 8.33A. (I=V/R)



You need to re-measure the rod alone. It's likely that the installation is being 'earthed' by gas or water pipework and that the earth fault loop resistance via the rod will be considerably higher.

250/8.33 = 30.012A ( i'm sure your post was a typo. LOL.)

 

[uksparks]

Thanks for the pointers here, I'll have a look in the book (GN8) too to see what else it says.

I have got the job on the basis my quote is around the figure I mentioned so may look at investing in some leads so that I can properly test the rod in it's own.

im sure you are right about the water bringing the reading down, I'm going back at some point next week to test it all and see what readings I get in the circuits etc, so will disconnect the rod and get an accurate reading from it.

as for the upfront rcd, it would be a plastic CU so maybe I don't need it then, what you are saying sounds logical.

 

[davesparks]

The first thing I would do is have a little walk down the street and see if PME is available in the area, you only have to look at the poles holding the overheads up.

What do you think is wrong with a 6mm Earthing conductor?

You use a 100mA S type RCD as a main switch to give additional fault protection of you cannot meet the Zs requirements for the circuits. I believe it is necessary regardless of the use of RCDs elsewhere as they are such unreliable devices that it gives a better chance of at least one operating in the event of a fault.

Who has permitted you a Ze of 200ohms? This figure is incorrectly thrown around as a limit for Ra,


I've got to say its nice to see that the NICEIC haven't lowered their standards for approved contractors, it would be terrible if they accepted people who don't even know what they are doing with a TT system wouldn't it!

 

[HandySparks]

250/8.33 = 30.012A ( i'm sure your post was a typo. LOL.)

Well spotted, tel.
30A was indeed the figure I should have quoted.

 

[uksparks]

The first thing I would do is have a little walk down the street and see if PME is available in the area, you only have to look at the poles holding the overheads up.

What do you think is wrong with a 6mm Earthing conductor?

You use a 100mA S type RCD as a main switch to give additional fault protection of you cannot meet the Zs requirements for the circuits. I believe it is necessary regardless of the use of RCDs elsewhere as they are such unreliable devices that it gives a better chance of at least one operating in the event of a fault.

Who has permitted you a Ze of 200ohms? This figure is incorrectly thrown around as a limit for Ra,


I've got to say its nice to see that the NICEIC haven't lowered their standards for approved contractors, it would be terrible if they accepted people who don't even know what they are doing with a TT system wouldn't it!

Cheeky git! Living on the edge of a city, TT is not something you tend to see much of!

200 Ohms, you know as well as I do where that came from.

Ill stick a 100mA upfront, but its going to trip and knock everything out isnt it when there's a fault? Sutrely a 300mA would be more suitable in that respect?

 

[extec]

Ill stick a 100mA upfront, but its going to trip and knock everything out isnt it when there's a fault? Sutrely a 300mA would be more suitable in that respect?[/QUOTE]

Not if it is S type in fact its not necessary OTT to fit an up front RCD.

 

[davesparks]

Cheeky git! Living on the edge of a city, TT is not something you tend to see much of!

200 Ohms, you know as well as I do where that came from.

Ill stick a 100mA upfront, but its going to trip and knock everything out isnt it when there's a fault? Sutrely a 300mA would be more suitable in that respect?

I wasn't being cheeky, it was a serious comment.

I know where a figure of 200ohms is suggested as the limit of stability of Ra, but you said it was a permitted maximum Ze.

Why would a 300mA be more suitable? Either one will knock everything off if there is a fault and the 30mA doesn't operate before the end of the time delay period.

I said 100mA S type because that is what, to the best of my knowledge, the regulations specify.

 

[uksparks]

True, I just realised S type so it would be ok.

 

[uksparks]

I wasn't being cheeky, it was a serious comment.

I know where a figure of 200ohms is suggested as the limit of stability of Ra, but you said it was a permitted maximum Ze.

Why would a 300mA be more suitable? Either one will knock everything off if there is a fault and the 30mA doesn't operate before the end of the time delay period.

I said 100mA S type because that is what, to the best of my knowledge, the regulations specify.

i didn't mean it as fact I just mean that 200 ohms is what's considered acceptable not set in stone.

 

[telectrix]

hmm according to BS7671 " a value above 200 ohms may not be stable". so unsuitable for a horse, and even less so for earthing an installation.

 

[davesparks]

It's not considered acceptable.

It is suggested that values of Ra above 200ohms may not be stable.

What is acceptable is the lowest value possible, get it low enough that all of your Zs values comply for ADS and you won't even need the upfront RCD

 

[extec]

3 8.3 0hms is a lot better than 200 BUT with a bit of effort you can get this to >1ohm

How much effort are you talking about? I would be interested in how you achieve less than 1 ohm on a TT

 

[uksparks]

I don't know what the Ra of the rod is on it's own as only did a Zs at the board, but would like to get it down under 1 if I could.

I could put additional rods in I guess and hook them all together.

 

[trev]

How much effort are you talking about? I would be interested in how you achieve less than 1 ohm on a TT

A lot depends on the type of soil you're going to whack into. You need the biggest, fattest rods (note, not rod) you need to couple them together and drive them deep.
If you can't do that you need to look at tapes and plates and multiple rods.
It's not hard mate.

 

[davesparks]

How much effort are you talking about? I would be interested in how you achieve less than 1 ohm on a TT

Depends on the soil conditions and available space.

I start with 2x 8' rods spaced at least 10' apart as a baseline for a small installation and take it from there.

 

[extec]

I could put additional rods in I guess and hook them all together.

That would depend on the type of ground you are driving them into.

 

[davesparks]

Depth gives stability, but the relationship between depth and the reduction in Ra values is not linear.
Initially the Ra will reduce dramatically for each foot deeper you go but you get to a point where you get no appreciable change for the increase in depth.

So you need multiple deep rods to get the values low

 

[extec]

Depends on the soil conditions and available space.

I start with 2x 8' rods spaced at least 10' apart as a baseline for a small installation and take it from there.

Difficult to achieve if the installations are on terraced properties without garden space.

 

[davesparks]

Difficult to achieve if the installations are on terraced properties without garden space.

One at the front of the house and one at the back.

But you don't find many terraced properties without gardens in country areas, they tend to only be in towns. And as we all know TT systems are normally a countryside thing.

All of the TT systems I have found anywhere near a town have had PME available and all you have to do is get some 10mm bonding installed and the DNO will connect PME FOC

 

[extec]

A lot depends on the type of soil you're going to whack into. You need the biggest, fattest rods (note, not rod) you need to couple them together and drive them deep.
If you can't do that you need to look at tapes and plates and multiple rods.
It's not hard mate.

Aye that's a lot more effort than some of the jobs are worth for me I thought you may have discovered some way of making the job a lot easier.

 

[davesparks]

Aye that's a lot more effort than some of the jobs are worth for me I thought you may have discovered some way of making the job a lot easier.

If you aren't going to do the job properly then don't do it at all!

 

[trev]

And as we all know TT systems are normally a countryside thing.

I disagree, we live near a busy road into a fairly large town. We're on a TT with a sub 1 ohm Ra

 

[yellowvanman]

With a low L-N value/High PSCC you could be in PME territory. Call the local DNO to check.

PSCC (L - N)
0.19 Ohms
1.3kA PFC

 

[extec]

If you aren't going to do the job properly then don't do it at all!

Ha ha you can't seem to help yourself can you the job is done properly within the guidance set out in BS 7671

 

[davesparks]

I disagree, we live near a busy road into a fairly large town. We're on a TT with a sub 1 ohm Ra

I did say normally in the countryside, not always.

Have you confirmed that PME is not available? I'm not suggesting that you should have it connected though, especially not with an Ra as good as that!

As I said earlier all of the TT installations I have come across around here within a reasonable distance of a town have had PME available. And since the connection by the DNO is free then I generally get it done.

 

[trev]

I did say normally in the countryside, not always.

Have you confirmed that PME is not available? I'm not suggesting that you should have it connected though, especially not with an Ra as good as that!

As I said earlier all of the TT installations I have come across around here within a reasonable distance of a town have had PME available. And since the connection by the DNO is free then I generally get it done.

If it was available I'd have it done in a heartbeat mate, I've checked though.

 

[Engineer54]

Aye that's a lot more effort than some of the jobs are worth for me I thought you may have discovered some way of making the job a lot easier.

Ha ha you can't seem to help yourself can you the job is done properly within the guidance set out in BS 7671

Any guidance given in BS7671 which relates to the numbty 200 ohm Ra values can be thrown straight into the nearest bin. At best it's referring to stability, and nothing beyond that. I take it from your posts above, that you'll also be using the equally useless 1.2m thin 3/8'' non-extendable twigs for your earth electrode installation, that basically can't ensure any stability to your ultra high Ra values too.... You'd do well to listen and take note of what has been stated above by those that Know what they are talking about!!


Do your customers a favour, ....Stay well away from TT installations!!!

 

[extec]

Any guidance given in BS7671 which relates to the numbty 200 ohm Ra values can be thrown straight into the nearest bin. At best it's referring to stability, and nothing beyond that. I take it from your posts above, that you'll also be using the equally useless 1.2m thin 3/8'' non-extendable twigs for your earth electrode installation, that basically can't ensure any stability to your ultra high Ra values too.... You'd do well to listen and take note of what has been stated above by those that Know what they are talking about!!


Do your customers a favour, ....Stay well away from TT installations!!!

Another Bell End you know nothing about me or my installations this forum has some well informed people and some which for some reason think they know everything about everything and about everyone. Thank you for your advice but I know what I am doing with a TT install and what is acceptable if you can't add anything constructive shut up.

 

[alanl]

This thread has shown that some supposedly 'competent' people are just not at all competent to install some very basic equipment in peoples houses (or anywhere else for that matter.)
6mm earth? 300mA RCD? Not quite sure about some things.
How about not sure about a lot of things?

How can anyone quote for such a job when they do not have the relevant knowledge to do it properly?
Of course, all is good, as the customers are protected as the person doing the work has been 'assessed' by their Governing Body. (laughs all the way to the bank!)

 

[Knobhead]

Extec

 

[extec]

Extec

And another BELL END once one comes out the others follow if you think this kind reply is what the forum is about why do you bother you sad individual. You have used this on a number of occasions to try and belittle members there is only two kinds of special idiot here and you are both of them.