sizing containment for T&E

[atm84]

Does anyone have experience sizing cable tray/ basket and trunking which is used for twin and earth cabling?

The on site guide only provides guidance and factors where single core PVC cables are used.

I am looking for help where twin and earth is used.

 

[tazz]

Then do it correctly, T&E is for domestic....and nowhere have I every seen it being used in the commercial sector.

 

[tazz]

Why is it appalling? Its perfectly fine, its only the dinosaurs that find it hard to accept.

Its designer who have respect for correct installation, and the ability by correct design, to protect the occupants and people who will be using such a building. Such standards in supported containment is a must in modern buildings. And due to its success, is now entering into domestic and HMO, IMO not before time. Correct containment save lives.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Then do it correctly, T&E is for domestic....and nowhere have I every seen it being used in the commercial sector.

I Guess you haven't seen everything then have you?

As I have stated, i have seen it used (specified) commercially.

You are making rash generalisations and value judgements about the use of a certain type of cable and I would have expected better from a moderator TBH.

 

[Anthony S]

Then do it correctly, T&E is for domestic....and nowhere have I every seen it being used in the commercial sector.

I've been instructed to use it above false ceilings in offices and builders merchant.

 

[tazz]

From commercial to shopfitting, you throw T&E across a false ceiling without containment and BC will insist you rip it out....seen this time and time again. But electricians keep doing it, as the last posts prove..
You expect better from a Moderator...? you just have

Suggested link http://ifpo.org.uk/downloads/assemblage3presentation2014.pdf

 

[ImpededLoop]

From commercial to shopfitting, you throw T&E across a false ceiling without containment and BC will insist you rip it out....

I don't think this is what is being suggested. T+E (normally LSF) is used in the commercial sector and the new installs that I have been part of (and in some cases specified) have been installed in basket or on tray and are well supported throughout their run.

I agree that there is no excuse for slinging cables of any type over a suspended ceiling, but fire alarms, data and telecoms are all as guilty as anyone else in my experience.

 

[Anthony S]

From commercial to shopfitting, you throw T&E across a false ceiling without containment and BC will insist you rip it out....seen this time and time again. But electricians keep doing it, as the last posts prove..
You expect better from a Moderator...? you just have

You made the following statement

Then do it correctly, T&E is for domestic....and nowhere have I every seen it being used in the commercial sector.

The wording and meaning is pretty clear, your saying T&E cable should not be used outside Domestic Installations and your wrong, so you try to twist it and bring the word containment into play to cover your bold statement.

If you have never seen T&E used in commercial Installations then you have not worked on half as many jobs as me over the past 30 years.

Its not a competition to try and out do people that my way is the only way.

 

[Andy78]

Then do it correctly, T&E is for domestic....and nowhere have I every seen it being used in the commercial sector.

I have to say that this surprises me.
I have seen PVC T&E specified and installed in buildings such as schools, hospitals, offices, libraries, health centres, commercial and industrial rented units, factories, and warehouses.
As long as it is properly managed then it can be entirely appropriate cable to use outside of domestic work.

 

[tazz]

Every specification for schools and commercial, We have tendered for have always been the same.
Tray for SWA, Gav trunking for Power/lighting, basket for data/fire/security.....Cable schedule always states LSF singles....I have not come across T&E being request or specified in and major project over the past 5 years.

 

[Andy78]

Every specification for schools and commercial, We have tendered for have always been the same.
Tray for SWA, Gav trunking for Power/lighting, basket for data/fire/security.....Cable schedule always states LSF singles....I have not come across T&E being request or specified in and major project over the past 5 years.

Well every LA has different methods and specifications, which change frequently in my experience. And to be fair to you I have not been involved in a large project, such as I mentioned, within the last 4 years. Just my experience within the sector has seen me install many miles of PVC and LSF T&E to specification on commercial jobs.

 

[tazz]

I just gone through the last tenders we have work on. University in Kent, primary school in Essex, co-op refits. And all are stated as follows.

Separate dedicated containment systems shall be provided within floor voids
and ceiling voids as appropriate, comprising of:-
• Multicore SWA mains voltage circuit wiring – Galvanised steel cable
tray.
• Single core LSOH mains voltage final circuit cabling – Galvanised steel
trunking / conduit.
• Fire alarm cabling – Galvanised steel cable tray (50mm / 100mm to
suit number of cables)
• Voice / data cabling - Steel wire basket.
• Mechanical controls cabling - Galvanised steel trunking / conduit in
plantrooms and galvanised steel cable tray within ceiling voids.

 

[Anthony S]

I just gone through the last tenders we have work on. University in Kent, primary school in Essex, co-op refits. And all are stated as follows.

Separate dedicated containment systems shall be provided within floor voids
and ceiling voids as appropriate, comprising of:-
• Multicore SWA mains voltage circuit wiring – Galvanised steel cable
tray.
• Single core LSOH mains voltage final circuit cabling – Galvanised steel
trunking / conduit.
• Fire alarm cabling – Galvanised steel cable tray (50mm / 100mm to
suit number of cables)
• Voice / data cabling - Steel wire basket.
• Mechanical controls cabling - Galvanised steel trunking / conduit in
plantrooms and galvanised steel cable tray within ceiling voids.

Not disputing the above, I've worked on the Underground, Tecso/M&S stores/Office blocks and so forth and the above applies to these Installations 99.9% of the time.

But what about small works such as units on industrial estates with small offices etc small sections of offices spilt up etc

There a lot small commercial work that goes on out side the major projects where T&E gets used.

 

[tazz]

Its down to the designer, but even a small co-op we have worked on have been specified the same...With one local electrician being forced by BC to reinstall the entire job after fitting T&E, and the same with the security company who through there cables over the false ceiling with no support.

 

[Anthony S]

Its down to the designer, but even a small co-op we have worked on have been specified the same...With one local electrician being forced by BC to reinstall the entire job after fitting T&E, and the same with the security company who through there cables over the false ceiling with no support.

Well, if the spark wants to ignore the Spec/Design that was put in place for the job, more fool them.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Agreed. T&E in containment is an appalling practice really.

In fact generally T&E outside of a domestic premises is pretty poor.

Really? I would have thought the best cable for the job would depend upon the specific job, and not be subject to ridiculous generalisations.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

From commercial to shopfitting, you throw T&E across a false ceiling without containment and BC will insist you rip it out....seen this time and time again. But electricians keep doing it, as the last posts prove..
You expect better from a Moderator...? you just have

Suggested link http://ifpo.org.uk/downloads/assemblage3presentation2014.pdf

I haven't!

Where did I suggest 'slinging' cable across suspended ceilings??!!

Twin and earth in basket is fine and dandy, and I've done it on countless commercial jobs. You are confusing the use of Twin and earth cable with the real issue of 'inadequately supported' cables.

Get a grip man.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

I have to say that this surprises me.
I have seen PVC T&E specified and installed in buildings such as schools, hospitals, offices, libraries, health centres, commercial and industrial rented units, factories, and warehouses.
As long as it is properly managed then it can be entirely appropriate cable to use outside of domestic work.

TF for common sense and experience!

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Its down to the designer, but even a small co-op we have worked on have been specified the same...With one local electrician being forced by BC to reinstall the entire job after fitting T&E, and the same with the security company who through there cables over the false ceiling with no support.

threw their???

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Every specification for schools and commercial, We have tendered for have always been the same.
Tray for SWA, Gav trunking for Power/lighting, basket for data/fire/security.....Cable schedule always states LSF singles....I have not come across T&E being request or specified in and major project over the past 5 years.

No ladder racking then?

 

[tazz]

I haven't!

Where did I suggest 'slinging' cable across suspended ceilings??!!

Twin and earth in basket is fine and dandy, and I've done it on countless commercial jobs. You are confusing the use of Twin and earth cable with the real issue of 'inadequately supported' cables.

Get a grip man.

Carry on house bashing.....then pay the re-installation costs when you enter commercial