Rewiring - Some questions, don't want to get done again...

[danny199]

Hi, after having a somewhat bad experience with a previous sparky and having to get the work fixed I'm after some advice with regards to some additional work I'd like done. I don't want to have similar issues. I'm not an electrician, I can wire a dash-cam and that is as far as I want to go, that said, I have been reading up in the hope of educating myself to what should be done so I can avoid problems next time.

We are planning to have the house rewired (all but kitchen, as that's a job for later...), built 1960s and still have the original cables. I have been reading up on stuff, given my last bad experience and have a few questions so I can make sure the work is done correctly this time.

1. We have a few of those rubbish paramount walls, with cardboard in the middle. Should I ask for metal conduit or is the mirroring rule enough?

2. We would like some outside lights to be put up, standard lantern light by the front door (sensor) and one by the back door that we can switch on from the kitchen/living room. They will need to drill through the cavity etc, should they use a conduit? Reading up, some say no, some say yes?

3. New boiler arriving soon, should this now be on a separate circuit/ring, or whatever its technically called?

4. Cables in loft, currently they are buried under insulation, attached to the rafters with metal clips. I have read that the cables get hot and lose power (OK, i know that's not the technical term) so should be laid above the insulation but some say it doesn't matter. If they are laid over the insulation, should they be in conduits to protect an idiot like me catching on them at a later date when putting junk up there. I can understand the sparky's preference to not spend hours up there attaching clips to rafters etc and just laying the cables over the insulation but is that the correct way?

5. Wired smoke alarms, really necessary? I was thinking just battery powered ones. If yes, should they be on a separate circuit or on a lighting circuit? Again, opinion seems divided.

I know that's a lot, but just want to make sure the work is done properly this time round, so I can avoid problems.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Don't like this new merging thing @Dan

Yes, what is that all about??

 

[telectrix]

Yes, what is that all about??

think it's to do with if you reply to 2 posts within a certain timescale, it puts both your replies into a single post.

 

[Grezza]

Get your spark to pull the cables for the kitchen circuits and leave above old kitchen with plenty of slack. Chances are that the rest of the house will be finish before you do the kitchen and who wants to chance walls and lift new carpet then.

Conduit in cavity walls is a nice touch but I wouldn’t lose sleep over it if not done.

Insulation can make a major issue with the cable carrying capacity, but for a ring main in a domestic enviro which will very rarely carry any where near its maximum capabilities especially for a sustained amount of time is very unlikely. Don’t sweat over that

Always get smokes hard wired and interlinked in some way in my opinion. Either wireless or hardwired. Why wouldn’t you?

Boiler to be wired on desperate circuit if possible. Pumps, fans and water are likely to fail and cause faults at some point. Be nice to be able to isolate this until plumber get there without the rest of the house being out.

 

[Midwest]

Get your spark to pull the cables for the kitchen circuits and leave above old kitchen with plenty of slack. Chances are that the rest of the house will be finish before you do the kitchen and who wants to chance walls and lift new carpet then.

Conduit in cavity walls is a nice touch but I wouldn’t lose sleep over it if not done.

Insulation can make a major issue with the cable carrying capacity, but for a ring main in a domestic enviro which will very rarely carry any where near its maximum capabilities especially for a sustained amount of time is very unlikely. Don’t sweat over that

Always get smokes hard wired and interlinked in some way in my opinion. Either wireless or hardwired. Why wouldn’t you?

Boiler to be wired on desperate circuit if possible. Pumps, fans and water are likely to fail and cause faults at some point. Be nice to be able to isolate this until plumber get there without the rest of the house being out.

Yawn. Have you read any of the previous posts. Guess not.

 

[danny199]

Thanks for all the advice and knowledge shared. Its much appreciated. Electrics and the amount of regulations is crazy but at least I know what should be done so its safe and correct. I guess most is common sense but as in any industry people like to take shortcuts because they can't be bothered to spend an extra 2 mins to do it correctly.

 

[telectrix]

anyone can play all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order.

 

[marconi]

What post code town are you eg: DN2..

 

[pirate]

Happy sunny Sunday everyone!
Here's all the right notes, in the right order, for this thread:

 

[Pete999]

Happy sunny Sunday everyone!
Here's all the right notes, in the right order, for this thread:

Seen it live way way back when I wer a mere Lad looking for Ladies.
[automerge]1567347239[/automerge]

Seen it live way way back when I wer a mere Lad looking for Ladies.

Found one and I still love her.

 

[danny199]

Hi, just to update the poor electrician came today to discuss the rewire... he must hate me as I was asking lots of questions although the Mrs did make him a cuppa and gave him cake... I didn't tell him I was getting help from you lot.

1. He said he will loop at the switch, not the light fitting as it makes it easier to upgrade things later? I know you can loop at the switch and light but is one preferable. I asked how, said he uses Wago terminals in the back box of the light? I nodded like I knew what he was talking about, but is sounds better than the tape the last bloke used.

2. With regards to the external lights (PIR Lantern ones) / smoke alarms he is putting up, said he will use a junction box to tap into lighting circuit? Kind of makes sense, but given its a rewire can't it be done without breaking my brand new circuit?

3. Said the consumer unit is ok, a cheaper one with not much space to add more circuits so suggested not to put smoke alarms on separate circuit as we might run out of space for more useful things later on given that we plan further work. That's annoying... I can see a larger consumer unit being needed later on

4. He did say he would prefer to do it after the boiler has been done, as he doesn't trust them to not ruin his work or bugger something up... lol.

Seemed like a good bloke, I will let you know how we get on. Again, very appreciative of people's help. Before, the last problems I would never have thought of asking so many questions but with electricity you can't be too careful.

 

[telectrix]

looping light circuits at switches is fine. sometimes even a better solution for adding smart control, and also means less wiring/connections at the actual lights, esp. with some of these fittings designed for only a single cable entry. might also be a good idea to request a 3 core/E cable from switch/es to light/s. then you have a perm. L at the light. again might be required for smart control.
[automerge]1567500850[/automerge]
can't think of The Who without this masterpiece

 

[danny199]

looping light circuits at switches is fine. sometimes even a better solution for adding smart control, and also means less wiring/connections at the actual lights, esp. with some of these fittings designed for only a single cable entry. might also be a good idea to request a 3 core/E cable from switch/es to light/s. then you have a perm. L at the light. again might be required for smart control.

Not sure I fully understand but it sounds like a good idea. I do like the idea of future proofing things. I really dont want to have walls and ceilings pulled out again for at least 50 year... I will likely be dead by then anyway.

 

[davesparks]

Hi, just to update the poor electrician came today to discuss the rewire... he must hate me as I was asking lots of questions although the Mrs did make him a cuppa and gave him cake... I didn't tell him I was getting help from you lot.

1. He said he will loop at the switch, not the light fitting as it makes it easier to upgrade things later? I know you can loop at the switch and light but is one preferable. I asked how, said he uses Wago terminals in the back box of the light? I nodded like I knew what he was talking about, but is sounds better than the tape the last bloke used.

2. With regards to the external lights (PIR Lantern ones) / smoke alarms he is putting up, said he will use a junction box to tap into lighting circuit? Kind of makes sense, but given its a rewire can't it be done without breaking my brand new circuit?

3. Said the consumer unit is ok, a cheaper one with not much space to add more circuits so suggested not to put smoke alarms on separate circuit as we might run out of space for more useful things later on given that we plan further work. That's annoying... I can see a larger consumer unit being needed later on

4. He did say he would prefer to do it after the boiler has been done, as he doesn't trust them to not ruin his work or bugger something up... lol.

Seemed like a good bloke, I will let you know how we get on. Again, very appreciative of people's help. Before, the last problems I would never have thought of asking so many questions but with electricity you can't be too careful.

1, both methods have their merits, looping at the switch makes it easy to upgrade to smart switches later. Wago terminals are generally the preferred method these days.

2. Yes these can be connected in without joint boxes, ask him to do this. I recommend having an isolator somewhere for the external lights so they can be swiftched off if they become faulty.

3. If you need a larger consumer unit for future planned work then tell him that you need this, you are paying the bill so you can have what you want fitted (within the requirements of the regulations etc)
However it is a good sign that he isn't trying to sell a new consumer unit unnecessarily.

4. I agree, plumbers are good at wrecking things.

 

[danny199]

1, both methods have their merits, looping at the switch makes it easy to upgrade to smart switches later. Wago terminals are generally the preferred method these days.

Great, it did make sense, especially when he said that some of the swanky light fittings don't have alot of space now days and it might be difficult to get them connected up. I thought he was trying to make his life easier when we actually get new light fittings as opposed to the £1.99 screwfix pendants there now.

2. Yes these can be connected in without joint boxes, ask him to do this. I recommend having an isolator somewhere for the external lights so they can be swiftched off if they become faulty.

Ok, so being a little naughty with saying he needs to break circuit. Bad boy lol. The isolator is a good idea, I assume just a switch, not one of those industrial red ones lol. I know the old man's sensor lights got stuck on for about a week once and had no way to switch them off. Plus they were the old style halogon bulbs lol. He was moaning about the cost of electricity and threatened to shoot the bulbs out with an air rifle.

3. If you need a larger consumer unit for future planned work then tell him that you need this, you are paying the bill so you can have what you want fitted (within the requirements of the regulations etc)
However it is a good sign that he isn't trying to sell a new consumer unit unnecessarily.

Yeah, he seems like a sound bloke. We had one recently, guy did us, new guy fixed it. I will ask him how much to add a larger one. Though it might have to wait

4. I agree, plumbers are good at wrecking things.

1, both methods have their merits, looping at the switch makes it easy to upgrade to smart switches later. Wago terminals are generally the preferred method these days.

Great, it did make sense, especially when he said that some of the swanky light fittings don't have alot of space now days and it might be difficult to get them connected up. I thought he was trying to make his life easier when we actually get new light fittings as opposed to the £1.99 screwfix pendants there now.

2. Yes these can be connected in without joint boxes, ask him to do this. I recommend having an isolator somewhere for the external lights so they can be swiftched off if they become faulty.

Ok, so being a little naughty with saying he needs to break circuit. Bad boy lol. The isolator is a good idea, I assume just a switch, not one of those industrial red ones lol. I know the old man's sensor lights got stuck on for about a week once and had no way to switch them off. Plus they were the old style halogon bulbs lol. He was moaning about the cost of electricity and threatened to shoot the bulbs out with an air rifle.

3. If you need a larger consumer unit for future planned work then tell him that you need this, you are paying the bill so you can have what you want fitted (within the requirements of the regulations etc)
However it is a good sign that he isn't trying to sell a new consumer unit unnecessarily.

Yeah, he seems like a sound bloke. We had one recently, guy did us, new guy fixed it. I will ask him how much to add a larger one. Though it might have to wait

4. I agree, plumbers are good at wrecking things.

 

[Risteard]

Nothing naughty about it. Many floods etc. are pre-flexed so will require an adaptable box next to them to connect to the fixed wiring. Nothing wrong with that done properly.

My advice is to leave him to the job unless you want to put him off doing it. And IMO domestic smokes are always better on a lightning circuit than a dedicated circuit regardless of spare capacity in the distribution board.

 

[Bobster]

2. Yes these can be connected in without joint boxes, ask him to do this. I recommend having an isolator somewhere for the external lights so they can be swiftched off if they become faulty.

Ok, so being a little naughty with saying he needs to break circuit. Bad boy lol.

It's a perfectly acceptable an common method that has been suggested.

From the responses you've given from the persons reactions, I would say they are probably a good choice.

Also, just note, most electricians wont offer any warranty on fittings and items that you yourself are supplying. So if a fitting fails within a couple of weeks randomly through no fault of anyone, expect a charge to come out and fix it.

 

[danny199]

It's a perfectly acceptable an common method that has been suggested.

From the responses you've given from the persons reactions, I would say they are probably a good choice.

Also, just note, most electricians wont offer any warranty on fittings and items that you yourself are supplying. So if a fitting fails within a couple of weeks randomly through no fault of anyone, expect a charge to come out and fix it.

Cool, I'm fine with him using junction boxes if its the safe thing to do and within the regs. We are only supplying the Lantern PIR light things as the Mrs is so indecisive. Being a bloke, I'd just tell him to get a good one, in black lol.

I don't want to turn into one of those annoying hoovering people that won't leave you alone while you are working, I just want to make sure its done properly and safely.

 

[davesparks]

Great, it did make sense, especially when he said that some of the swanky light fittings don't have alot of space now days and it might be difficult to get them connected up. I thought he was trying to make his life easier when we actually get new light fittings as opposed to the £1.99 screwfix pendants there now.

Ok, so being a little naughty with saying he needs to break circuit. Bad boy lol. The isolator is a good idea, I assume just a switch, not one of those industrial red ones lol. I know the old man's sensor lights got stuck on for about a week once and had no way to switch them off. Plus they were the old style halogon bulbs lol. He was moaning about the cost of electricity and threatened to shoot the bulbs out with an air rifle.

Its actually a little easier and quicker to loop at the light than at the the switch.

I would go for a 20A double pole switch to isolate external lights (they look like a normal light switch but disconnect both L and N) because then if it develops a neutral fault which trips an RCD you can switch it off and reset the RCD to restore power to the rest of the circuit.

 

[danny199]

Its actually a little easier and quicker to loop at the light than at the the switch.

I would go for a 20A double pole switch to isolate external lights (they look like a normal light switch but disconnect both L and N) because then if it develops a neutral fault which trips an RCD you can switch it off and reset the RCD to restore power to the rest of the circuit.

I will ask the chap to fit some double poles, he might have already planned to do it to be fair to him. He does sound like he knows what he is doing. I suppose that's easier than shooting out the lights when they won't switch off for days at a time.

 

[telectrix]

I will ask the chap to fit some double poles, he might have already planned to do it to be fair to him. He does sound like he knows what he is doing. I suppose that's easier than shooting out the lights when they won't switch off for days at a time.

bad idea to shoot lights out. :
1. you can't eat them.
2. as a 12 year old i got copped by the local beat flatfoot for shooting out a streetlight. a clout round the head hurts. these days, it would be an asbo and /or an electronic tag, coupled with the warning " don't do it again". some deterrent?

 

[danny199]

bad idea to shoot lights out. :
1. you can't eat them.
2. as a 12 year old i got copped by the local beat flatfoot for shooting out a streetlight. a clout round the head hurts. these days, it would be an asbo and /or an electronic tag, coupled with the warning " don't do it again". some deterrent?

Today, Politically Correct Plod would tell you that you are a naughty boy in a calm voice, they would then give you a hug, tell you its societies fault you are misbehaving and send you on a nice holiday to make you feel better, plus make you promise never to be naughty again.

 

[snowhead]

1. He said he will loop at the switch,
but is one preferable. This one
he uses Wago terminals in the back box of the light?

WAGO


2. external lights said he will use a junction box

No junction boxes required, could be looped from a switch

3. consumer unit is ok, not much space to add more circuits so suggested I can see a larger consumer unit being needed later on

Just add a smaller one next to it later, if required

4. He did say he would prefer to do it after the boiler has been done, as he doesn't trust them to not ruin his work or bugger something up... lol.

Good plan

Others may agree or disagree, I don't care.

 

[danny199]

Others may agree or disagree, I don't care.

Those wagos look better than tape. Seems like a good thing.

Didn't know you could loop from a switch, I will ask him.

Good idea about the Consumer Unit, didnt know you could do that.