Bedroom lights without earths

[Car123]

Here is another question. In my bedrooms 1 light is earthed and two are not. The lights are pendants..All plastic fittings. I have been told there needs to be further investigation. The investigation apparently needing to get up in to the loft to look for the earth. This is a problem for me as the loft is looked and choker block with my stuff. Loads of it. The loft is locked and I am not sure where the key is. (Lockdown intervened(.Anyhow I have asked the electricians why they need to investigate further. I said I thought it was okay that bedroom lights are not earthed with plastic fittings. They just dont answer. I am feeling a bit desparate about it as I have 28 days to complete the work

 

[Wilko]

For what it’s worth, my thought is :

- the report from 2014 was in error to conclude no CPC present at the light was ok. So the C2 of the recent report doesn’t indicate a change in regulations, in my view. If there was an earth present at the lighting point but it had been cut somewhere, that would be seen as potentially dangerous and require fixing. So I see the “no earth at light” in the same way.

- the loose trunking, well I haven’t seen it so I can’t judge whether it’s potentially dangerous, but it’s certainly poor workmanship and would now require some metal clips to prevent premature collapse in the event of a fire. If it’s in a trafficable location where it may be grabbed and pulled then I would think that’s potentially dangerous. In any case it should be fixed as they can further deteriorate and become unsafe between inspections.

 

[Car123]

The earth return path is a vital part of how the circuit breakers (MCB‘s) or fuses in the consumer unit (CU) work to disconnect the supply in the event of a fault. This is known as protection by automatic disconnection of supply, or ADS. The CPC (earth) provides a low resistance path back to the CU for any potential fault current, hopefully preventing that harmful current from flowing through a person in the worst case scenario. That’s why a CPC should be present at all points of the fixed wiring and should ideally run alongside the live conductors of each circuit.

ADS is like the bare minimum requirement for protection from electric shock and RCD’s provide an additional layer of protection on top of that.

Some faults don’t create enough current to allow the MCB’s or fuses to operate, or they allow more current than is typically survivable to flow through a person before they do disconnect the supply. Residual Current Devices (RCD’s) provide additional protection against these by being more sensitive to smaller current imbalances in the circuits they protect. They monitor the outgoing and return current on the line and neutral conductors of a circuit or group of circuits and trip if the imbalance is more than 30mA (other ratings are available, but 30mA is required for additional protection). They don’t need a CPC to operate but having one provides that low resistance path back to the CU for the fault current, causing the RCD to see the imbalance in the live conductors (L + N) quickly and trip accordingly.

Electricity is sort of like water in that it usually follows the path of least resistance. In the event of a fault with a CPC present, the electricity will flow down that and should trip either the RCD or MCB/fuse before anyone gets hurt. Without a CPC it’ll flow through the next path of least resistance which might well be the unfortunate human being who’s just stuck a nail through a cable above a light switch.

Hypothetically (really don’t try this at home), grabbing the end of a single line conductor (usually brown or red in the UK) won’t cause an MCB or fuse to trip or rupture before you’ve had a very nasty, possibly fatal, shock. They might not even operate at all in some circumstances. If we fit a 30mA RCD as well it will trip quickly enough to prevent that same shock being fatal in most cases.

Thank you for this. Is it that the regs since 2014 have made the earth mandatory. As the EICR done then was passed. Intact since then there is more things earthed in the house

 

[dodger421]

Thank you for this. Is it that the regs since 2014 have made the earth mandatory. As the EICR done then was passed. Intact since then there is more things earthed in the house

No, the regulation applied to all circuits from the early 1970’s I think. Prior to that lighting circuits could be wired in 2-core cable without a CPC.

As @Wilko says it sounds like the 2014 report was incorrect, but again it’s very difficult to comment on either report with certainty without seeing them or the property in question. It sounds like the concern of the recent inspector is that a CPC is present at some fittings but not all of them. I’d certainly see that as a potentially dangerous situation and would want to investigate it.

 

[Car123]

For what it’s worth, my thought is :

- the report from 2014 was in error to conclude no CPC present at the light was ok. So the C2 of the recent report doesn’t indicate a change in regulations, in my view. If there was an earth present at the lighting point but it had been cut somewhere, that would be seen as potentially dangerous and require fixing. So I see the “no earth at light” in the same way.

- the loose trunking, well I haven’t seen it so I can’t judge whether it’s potentially dangerous, but it’s certainly poor workmanship and would now require some metal clips to prevent premature collapse in the event of a fire. If it’s in a trafficable location where it may be grabbed and pulled then I would think that’s potentially dangerous. In any case it should be fixed as they can further deteriorate and become unsafe between inspections.

Perhaps I am wrong about the 2014 saying there was no earth. I have this EICR and can post it online. Well hopefully as I am crap at putting things online. Prob is I need to doctor it as well to get rid of who did it as well the address. I am getting more and more confused not less. Actually I don't think there was an earth in 2014. Pretty certain there wasnt

 

[Wilko]

I need to doctor it as well to get rid of who did it as well the address

Hi - not meaning to teach you how to suck eggs or to say you have to post a doc, but I put a post-it-note across stuff and take a pic. Very low tech .

 

[Car123]

Perhaps I am wrong about the 2014 saying there was no earth. I have this EICR and can post it online. Well hopefully as I am crap at putting things online. Prob is I need to doctor it as well to get rid of who did it as well the address. I am getting more and more confused not less. Actually I don't think there was an earth in 2014. Pretty certain there wasnt

Perhaps I am wrong about the 2014 saying there was no earth. I have this EICR and can post it online. Well hopefully as I am crap at putting things online. Prob is I need to doctor it as well to get rid of who did it as well the address. I am getting more and more confused not less. Actually I don't think there was an earth in 2014. Pretty certain there wasnt

Hi - not meaning to teach you how to suck eggs or to say you have to post a doc, but I put a post-it-note across stuff and take a pic. Very low tech .

Only will be how to attach said photos on here. I guess there must be some place to do this. Ahh may be it's that symbol

Hi - not meaning to teach you how to suck eggs or to say you have to post a doc, but I put a post-it-note across stuff and take a pic. Very low tech .

I guess it's that symbol up the top to attach it.

 

[Burtones]

Any guidance I've seen (from schemes and the best practice guide from electrical safety first) have no RCD on domestic lighting circuits as C3, they also have no cpc on lighting circuit with class 2 fittings and plastic switches as C3 (if they are wired in a 2 core cable without an earth- this might not be the case here as 1 light has a cpc, hence the FI code).

I know neither is ideal and a strong recommendation for improvement would be given (I'm sure most people would happily pay to improve safety in both of these situations), but a lot of you seem to give C2 for both of these making the report unsatisfactory and therefore forcing the improvements.

 

[Car123]

Any guidance I've seen (from schemes and the best practice guide from electrical safety first) have no RCD on domestic lighting circuits as C3, they also have no cpc on lighting circuit with class 2 fittings and plastic switches as C3 (if they are wired in a 2 core cable without an earth- this might not be the case here as 1 light has a cpc, hence the FI code).

I know neither is ideal and a strong recommendation for improvement would be given (I'm sure most people would happily pay to improve safety in both of these situations), but a lot of you seem to give C2 for both of these making the report unsatisfactory and therefore forcing the improvements.

If it were not for the problem with accessing the loft I would not be hesitating. What difference does it make that one light has a CPC? This what I have wondered about? Would it be better if there were none?

 

[DPG]

If it were not for the problem with accessing the loft I would not be hesitating. What difference does it make that one light has a CPC? This what I have wondered about? Would it be better if there were none?

It would not be better no. Removing a CPC is never an improvement!

 

[Burtones]

Removing one no, but if it never had one in the first place because it was wired in twin that doesn't have a cpc, then the class 2 fittings and C3 would apply- doesn't seem to be the case with yours though as one fitting has a cpc so likely to be wired in t&e

 

[dodger421]

If it were not for the problem with accessing the loft I would not be hesitating. What difference does it make that one light has a CPC? This what I have wondered about? Would it be better if there were none?

The problem is we don’t know what “no earth” actually means without seeing the report or the property.

It could be that a CPC is only physically present at one fitting, which is confusing and requires investigation to find out why. Older properties may only have 2-core to all the light fittings and switches and that is sometimes ok but with a strong recommendation to upgrade.

Or it could be that a CPC is physically present at all light fittings, but not continuous between them. This is much more serious as it implies a break or degradation in the wiring somewhere, possibly rodent damage or a poorly made joint somewhere.That needs further investigation and must be resolved.

Or the wiring could leave the DB in 2-core, turn into 3-core at one fitting and then back to 2-core at the others. Which again implies a joint somewhere, and maybe not a great one at that. Further investigation needed.

 

[Car123]

It would not be better no. Removing a CPC is never an improvement!

My question is if there is no vox on any lights according this post then it would be.C3. But as one light hadcCPC it needs further investigation..

 

[DPG]

I'm not sure what else the forum can advise to be honest. We haven't seen the old report, the new report, or the property. And any more checking/repairing seems impossible if the loft is out of bounds.

 

[Car123]

The problem is we don’t know what “no earth” actually means without seeing the report or the property.

It could be that a CPC is only physically present at one fitting, which is confusing and requires investigation to find out why. Older properties may only have 2-core to all the light fittings and switches and that is sometimes ok but with a strong recommendation to upgrade.

Or it could be that a CPC is physically present at all light fittings, but not continuous between them. This is much more serious as it implies a break or degradation in the wiring somewhere, possibly rodent damage or a poorly made joint somewhere.That needs further investigation and must be resolved.

Or the wiring could leave the DB in 2-core, turn into 3-core at one fitting and then back to 2-core at the others. Which again implies a joint somewhere, and maybe not a great one at that. Further investigation needed.

Thanks for this. I am understanding it better now. I don't think there has been

 

[Baddegg]

What you also need to realise is coding is done at the discretion of the inspector so just because the majority on here may say C3 for no cpc with plastic class2 fitting......another inspector who to be fair is actually on site and can see/test the installation may decide it’s a c2 and that’s what your report will reflect.....possibly maybe if you ever see it ?

 

[Car123]

Thanks for this. I am understanding it better now. I don't think there has been

What you also need to realise is coding is done at the discretion of the inspector so just because the majority on here may say C3 for no cpc with plastic class2 fitting......another inspector who to be fair is actually on site and can see/test the installation may decide it’s a c2 and that’s what your report will reflect.....possibly maybe if you ever see it ?

Yeah I understand. I think they are a bit over the top. They were also going on about some fuse being a different make and were going to make it C2 but in the end made it C3. I am more worried now about the dead bodies they are going to find in the loft.??

 

[dodger421]

They were also going on about some fuse being a different make and were going to make it C2 but in the end made it C3.

Manufacturers generally only test and rate their CU’s containing their own equipment, so the regs are fairly clear that mixing manufacturers is a no no.

Although the devices all have to conform to a BSEN standard there’s no universal standard for the CU enclosure itself or the bus bar connections. That means there are many different sizes and orientations of bus bars, and there’s no guarantee that a Schneider MCB will properly connect to or sit properly inside a Hager CU for example.

Mixed manufacturers is nearly always a C3 to me. If the MCB isn’t sitting properly on the bus bar and/or there are signs of thermal or mechanical damage then it’s at least a C2, maybe even a C1 if the damage is very severe.

As has been said many times, without seeing the reports or the property it’s very difficult to comment and regardless the coding of the inspector is entirely subjective. A C3 to me is someone else’s C2 and vice versa.

 

[Electrics]

No lights need an Earth if double insulated.....right up until the 18th When all circuits need rcd protection in a domestic setting...which can’t happen with no cpc, I would say that if the others have cpcs you may have them there and they’ve just been cut out (not uncommon) which is why they’ll want to access the loft to rectify.....in fairness to the sparks if they can find it that’s a cheap fix for you

I am also confused by this. Plastic doesn't conduct so what difference would having an earth attached to a plastic fitting make? If it's not RCD'd without one then it shouldn't be RCD'd with one either? I'm sure this is wrong but would be grateful if you could explain

 

[dodger421]

I am also confused by this. Plastic doesn't conduct so what difference would having an earth attached to a plastic fitting make? If it's not RCD'd without one then it shouldn't be RCD'd with one either? I'm sure this is wrong but would be grateful if you could explain

Ignoring the RCD issue, look at this way.

Your earth fault loop impedance (Zs) has to meet a certain value for your protective devices to operate. You need to measure and record this both on initial verification and on periodic inspection. You can do this either by direct measurement or by calculation (Ze + (R1+R2)).

How do you measure or calculate the Zs value for a circuit without a CPC? You can’t really, you need to measure R1+R2 at the very least and you don’t have an R2 to measure if there’s no CPC.

On periodics you can check earth continuity by measuring R2 at each point, but again you can’t do that if there isn’t a CPC present in the first place.

That’s why the regs say a CPC must be present at all accessories and other points on the fixed wiring even if the accessory doesn’t require an earth functionally or otherwise (double insulated).

 

[Car123]

Manufacturers generally only test and rate their CU’s containing their own equipment, so the regs are fairly clear that mixing manufacturers is a no no.

Although the devices all have to conform to a BSEN standard there’s no universal standard for the CU enclosure itself or the bus bar connections. That means there are many different sizes and orientations of bus bars, and there’s no guarantee that a Schneider MCB will properly connect to or sit properly inside a Hager CU for example.

Mixed manufacturers is nearly always a C3 to me. If the MCB isn’t sitting properly on the bus bar and/or there are signs of thermal or mechanical damage then it’s at least a C2, maybe even a C1 if the damage is very severe.

As has been said many times, without seeing the reports or the property it’s very difficult to comment and

Ignoring the RCD issue, look at this way.

Your earth fault loop impedance (Zs) has to meet a certain value for your protective devices to operate. You need to measure and record this both on initial verification and on periodic inspection. You can do this either by direct measurement or by calculation (Ze + (R1+R2)).

How do you measure or calculate the Zs value for a circuit without a CPC? You can’t really, you need to measure R1+R2 at the very least and you don’t have an R2 to measure if there’s no CPC.

On periodics you can check earth continuity by measuring R2 at each point, but again you can’t do that if there isn’t a CPC present in the first place.

That’s why the regs say a CPC must be present at all accessories and other points on the fixed wiring even if the accessory doesn’t require an earth functionally or otherwise (double insulated).

That's a good explanation. I think I am beginning to understand. Was this the case in 2014?

 

[dodger421]

That's a good explanation. I think I am beginning to understand. Was this the case in 2014?

Yes, I’m pretty sure it’s been the case since some time in the 1970’s but I’m not an historical regs expert!

 

[Car123]

Yes, I’m pretty sure it’s been the case since some time in the 1970’s but I’m not an historical regs expert!

Yes and someone probably the same people have broken the connection.. I am going to try and post the 2014 EICR but I can't get in to to annoymise it. I will ask my partner if he can but not he can either

 

[Car123]

Yes and someone probably the same people have broken the connection.. I am going to try and post the 2014 EICR but I can't get in to to annoymise it. I will ask my partner if he can but not he

 

[electric al]

It looks like you are going to have to bite the bullet and move the crap in the loft space . A rental property needs to be compliant and I wouldnt be happy having the landlords gear stashed in the space I am renting - who's to say it's not a fire risk !

 

[Car123]

2014 EICR

It looks like you are going to have to bite the bullet and move the crap in the loft space . A rental property needs to be compliant and I wouldnt be happy having the landlords gear stashed in the space I am renting - who's to say it's not a

It looks like you are going to have to bite the bullet and move the crap in the loft space . A rental property needs to be compliant and I wouldnt be happy having the landlords gear stashed in the space I am renting - who's to say it's not a fire risk !

I cannot assure you that my rental property is fully compliantt. The tenant is perfectly happy with the house. He writes that he loves it there and one reason is that I am a good landlord. Anyhow snarky it turns out that the electricians now say that it can remain as it is and they just need to put a label on the consumer unit. They seem to have concluded this after I requested more understanding of the matter. Thank you to all the people on here who have offered advice and help. I did try and upload the 2014 but it would not attach..

 

[Car123]

Ignoring the RCD issue, look at this way.

Your earth fault loop impedance (Zs) has to meet a certain value for your protective devices to operate. You need to measure and record this both on initial verification and on periodic inspection. You can do this either by direct measurement or by calculation (Ze + (R1+R2)).

How do you measure or calculate the Zs value for a circuit without a CPC? You can’t really, you need to measure R1+R2 at the very least and you don’t have an R2 to measure if there’s no CPC.

On periodics you can check earth continuity by measuring R2 at each point, but again you can’t do that if there isn’t a CPC present in the first place.

That’s why the regs say a CPC must be present at all accessories and other points on the fixed wiring even if the accessory doesn’t require an earth functionally or otherwise (double insulated).

The electricians have now concluded that it can stay as it is. Interesting. Thanks for your advice

 

[DPG]

Did you get the trunking sorted?

 

[electric al]

Seems to me that you will go to any lengths to avoid clearing the crap out of the loft and you are on here looking for a loophole

 

[DPG]

The electricians have now concluded that it can stay as it is. Interesting. Thanks for your advice

How did you get them both to agree?

 

[Car123]

I reckon your stuck on this one mate, if there’s no cpc then it’s not rcd’d so depending on inspector you are probably getting a C2 regardless...so it’ll need sorting and that will involve accessing the loft

Thanks for your advice. I feel a lot more informed. But guess what the electricians have concluded that it's fine to leave it and stick a lable on the consumer unit. Funny that. This came after I asked for clarification from them. I explained that I was stupid and apologised, one week later to the day they concluded it was alright as it is. ?