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tonys
or retrain as a 6 week wonder plumber[/QUOTE]
Don't care where they go or what they do as long as they get well away from this industry, its giving the industry a bad name.
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Martin Bradley
So when are you going to start your painters course,
All you have to do is calculate it chap. Also BS EN 60669-1 spur out let 20 amp, protected by a 16 amp circuit breaker, at db, why would you put a fused spure in line on a dedicated supply for a IMM Heater. Isolating at the db then allows for maintenance, so what you are saying im wrong in my practice, or just over protecting, if you can say 100% yes to that then, prove im wrong. or explain yourself better.
All you have to do is calculate it chap. Also BS EN 60669-1 spur out let 20 amp, protected by a 16 amp circuit breaker, at db, why would you put a fused spure in line on a dedicated supply for a IMM Heater. Isolating at the db then allows for maintenance, so what you are saying im wrong in my practice, or just over protecting, if you can say 100% yes to that then, prove im wrong. or explain yourself better.
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pushrod
A double pole, switched fcu beside the immersion allows for local isolation that is in view of the person carrying out the maintenance and allows a point to change to heat proof flex.
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Martin Bradley
I under stand this, what im saying is that you would use a 20 amp db pole switch and the protective devices at the ccu would be 16 amp.
this would also give local isolation, but you would still need to isolate the circuit as you may have a loose wire in the spur.
this would also give local isolation, but you would still need to isolate the circuit as you may have a loose wire in the spur.
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SimpleSimon
Can't really count an MCB switch as local isolation IMO unless the DB is within reaching distance of the DB.
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Martin Bradley
So the 20 amp double pole switch would not give local isolation come on, of course it would, what i am saying is that the 20 amp double pole switch would not be fused but would offer local isolation, but for maintenance work the 15/16 amp protective device would give you complete isolation.
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tonys
There's nothing wrong with any of the following methods with regards 3kw Insulated immersion heater elements operated via a thermostat.
20 amp double pole switch backed up by a 16amp mcb/15 amp 3036: this method as been around since I was an apprentice in 1984 and that's the way I was taught.
13amp switched fused spur: used this method many times.
13amp plug top: never used this method myself, but it was not against the 15th or 16th Edition Regs and not against the 17th as far as I'm aware.
Only other thing people can do is ring their scheme Technical Help Line if they can not agree with any of the above
but make sure you mention the word Insulated
20 amp double pole switch backed up by a 16amp mcb/15 amp 3036: this method as been around since I was an apprentice in 1984 and that's the way I was taught.
13amp switched fused spur: used this method many times.
13amp plug top: never used this method myself, but it was not against the 15th or 16th Edition Regs and not against the 17th as far as I'm aware.
Only other thing people can do is ring their scheme Technical Help Line if they can not agree with any of the above
but make sure you mention the word Insulated
Tony
I read your earlier post regarding insulated water heaters and I am confused by the term insulated in this instance.
Obviously the element is not in contact with the water but the outer sheaving is copper which is in contact with the water. The regs define insulation as a non conductive material, now I know there is a barrier between the conducting part of the element & the outer copper sheath, but I'm not sure that I would class a domestic immersion heater as insulated. Although I'm open to discussion on this.
Also the IEE on site guide states that an immersion heater should be fed from a fused connection BS1363-4 but gives no reg number as a reference.
I read your earlier post regarding insulated water heaters and I am confused by the term insulated in this instance.
Obviously the element is not in contact with the water but the outer sheaving is copper which is in contact with the water. The regs define insulation as a non conductive material, now I know there is a barrier between the conducting part of the element & the outer copper sheath, but I'm not sure that I would class a domestic immersion heater as insulated. Although I'm open to discussion on this.
Also the IEE on site guide states that an immersion heater should be fed from a fused connection BS1363-4 but gives no reg number as a reference.
T
tonys
Andy
I'm not that technical to be honest with you mate. I'm going on what I was told by the NICEIC Engineer who pulled me on a PIR just before the 17th came into to force where I had coded a immersion heater (the domestic type) for being on a plug top. So unless someone can show me where the regulations have changed on this, I'm going to stay with what I was told.
How the terminology goes with regards to the insulated material between the inner and outer part of the element, phoning a manufacturer might verify who's right in this instance. The NICEIC don't normally get things wrong imo, but like I said if someone shows me the regulation change I'm happy to accept it.
Andy
Also, what would you say with regards to a kettle element, are they not of the same principle ?
I'm not that technical to be honest with you mate. I'm going on what I was told by the NICEIC Engineer who pulled me on a PIR just before the 17th came into to force where I had coded a immersion heater (the domestic type) for being on a plug top. So unless someone can show me where the regulations have changed on this, I'm going to stay with what I was told.
How the terminology goes with regards to the insulated material between the inner and outer part of the element, phoning a manufacturer might verify who's right in this instance. The NICEIC don't normally get things wrong imo, but like I said if someone shows me the regulation change I'm happy to accept it.
Andy
Also, what would you say with regards to a kettle element, are they not of the same principle ?
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malcolmsanford
Andy not sure if immersions have changed, as I don't do a lot with them now but everyone I worked on you had to drain the tank before removing the element as they were immersed in the water. To be honest I tend to go with pushrod on this and think they are covered under Reg 554.3. and therefore not to be connected via a BS 1363 socket and plug.
As I don't work on them enough and someone definately told me they do not some under these set of Regs I certainly wouldn't argue with them.
As I don't work on them enough and someone definately told me they do not some under these set of Regs I certainly wouldn't argue with them.
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tonys
Immersion heater
Water heating by electricity is usually done by an immersion heater mounted in the top of the hot water cylinder. The heater contains an insulated electric resistance heater and a temperature sensor. Domestic immersion heaters (usually rated at 3 kilowatts in the UK) run on the normal domestic electricity supply. Electric shower and tankless heater also use a immersion heater shielded or naked which is turned on by the water passing and turned off when the tap is closed. A group of heater working each one or together provide different heating levels. Electric showers and tankless heaters usually have since 3kilowatts to 7.5kilowatts according the voltage supply. Industrial immersion heaters (such as those used in electric steam boilers) may be rated at 100 kilowatts, or more, and run on a three-phase supply. 11
[edit] Electrode heater
With an electrode heater, there is no wire-wound resistance and the liquid itself acts as the resistance. This has potential hazards so the regulations governing electrode heaters are strict.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_heating#cite_note-0
Water heating by electricity is usually done by an immersion heater mounted in the top of the hot water cylinder. The heater contains an insulated electric resistance heater and a temperature sensor. Domestic immersion heaters (usually rated at 3 kilowatts in the UK) run on the normal domestic electricity supply. Electric shower and tankless heater also use a immersion heater shielded or naked which is turned on by the water passing and turned off when the tap is closed. A group of heater working each one or together provide different heating levels. Electric showers and tankless heaters usually have since 3kilowatts to 7.5kilowatts according the voltage supply. Industrial immersion heaters (such as those used in electric steam boilers) may be rated at 100 kilowatts, or more, and run on a three-phase supply. 11
[edit] Electrode heater
With an electrode heater, there is no wire-wound resistance and the liquid itself acts as the resistance. This has potential hazards so the regulations governing electrode heaters are strict.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_heating#cite_note-0
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malcolmsanford
Wikipedia is a wonderful tool
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tonys
Andy
Ill will always trust the advice of an NICEIC Engineer over the majority of members on here. IQ is another one who I trust, hes another qualified Engineer.
Ill will always trust the advice of an NICEIC Engineer over the majority of members on here. IQ is another one who I trust, hes another qualified Engineer.
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tonys
So you still not agreeing with me then Malc, you not that confident in a NICEIC Approved Contractor QS then lol
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malcolmsanford
No mate you copied and pasted that to perfection, we now know what an immersion heater is, what I would like to know is if it's covered by regulations 544.3 as I think it is, but as I said I can't remember the last time I did an immersion and certainly not in the last 5 years.
D
Deleted member 26818
Don't quite see the problem here.
Immersion heaters have been required to be permanently connected via a DP switch for about 30 years.
Immersion heaters have been required to be permanently connected via a DP switch for about 30 years.
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tonys
We are talking about a plug top and given it disconnects both live and neutral conductors at the same time, then it is also acceptable imo
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malcolmsanford
Spin yes that or a FCU.
What the discussion is about that Pushrod seems to think that immersion heaters are covered by Regs 554.3 and in that set of regs 554.3.3 states that an immersion heater can not be connectedvia a plug and socket. I tend to agree with him, but as I've stated I don't normally work with immersions and when I do it is always connected up with either a 20amp double pole Switch or a Double pole 13amp FCU, and never thought of doing them by a plug or socket.
Tonys seems to think that an immersion does not come under these regs and so connecting via a socket and plug is ok.
Now I don't know this part of the regs well enough to say aye or nay, hence the discussion, which is why I think most of us use the forum as it opens up a good debate.
What the discussion is about that Pushrod seems to think that immersion heaters are covered by Regs 554.3 and in that set of regs 554.3.3 states that an immersion heater can not be connectedvia a plug and socket. I tend to agree with him, but as I've stated I don't normally work with immersions and when I do it is always connected up with either a 20amp double pole Switch or a Double pole 13amp FCU, and never thought of doing them by a plug or socket.
Tonys seems to think that an immersion does not come under these regs and so connecting via a socket and plug is ok.
Now I don't know this part of the regs well enough to say aye or nay, hence the discussion, which is why I think most of us use the forum as it opens up a good debate.
T
tonys
Malc
If its proved wrong and these immersion heaters are not of an insulated type then a double switch it is.
If its proved wrong and these immersion heaters are not of an insulated type then a double switch it is.
D
Deleted member 26818
Section 554.3 relates to Water heaters having immersed (that's immersion heaters) and uninsulated heating elements (that's standard elements where the outer sheath is connected to earth).
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malcolmsanford
Like wise me tony if your right mate then a plug and socket it is, just be nice to get a definitive answer like we have on exporting the earth in a TNC-S .............Eeeeeek
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malcolmsanford
And we seem to have it thank you Spin.
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tonys
just on phone to technical malc
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Martin Bradley
But dont forget about a unskilled people, removing the plug while the IMM Heater is on at 3Kw, Arcing may occur and this may fuse the plug in a way that it is part in and out , stuck and then the unskilled person may attempt to pull the plug out and come in contact with pins, Long shot. LOL. But you never know?.
20 amp double pole spur all the way for me, since the tank may need to be on its own circuit most of the time it does, then i cant see the point in having a fuse in line with the db protective device, even though you can isolate at spur, you know that you should also lock off protetive device at db. that is why i say 20 amp dp switch and 15/16amp protective devie at db.
20 amp double pole spur all the way for me, since the tank may need to be on its own circuit most of the time it does, then i cant see the point in having a fuse in line with the db protective device, even though you can isolate at spur, you know that you should also lock off protetive device at db. that is why i say 20 amp dp switch and 15/16amp protective devie at db.
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tonys
Right
Waiting for a return call and Ive just put an e-mail over as well to get something in writing. Also the Engineer who pulled me on my PIR "plug top immersion" has since retired, so no he will get the blame if I'm wrong. But it will be good to find what the NICEIC has say to my questions.
Also, what ever the answer I want my phone-call monies back as well from the thread starter lol
Waiting for a return call and Ive just put an e-mail over as well to get something in writing. Also the Engineer who pulled me on my PIR "plug top immersion" has since retired, so no he will get the blame if I'm wrong. But it will be good to find what the NICEIC has say to my questions.
Also, what ever the answer I want my phone-call monies back as well from the thread starter lol
T
tonys
Right
NICEIC Technical phoned me and said I'm right.
The Domestic Type Immersion Heater is of an INSULATED TYPE therefore regulation 554.3 is not applicable, meaning it does not apply.
Also a 13amp plug top is an acceptable from of isolation.
I will be getting an e-mail to confirm this from Technical as well.
Cheers Tony
NICEIC Technical phoned me and said I'm right.
The Domestic Type Immersion Heater is of an INSULATED TYPE therefore regulation 554.3 is not applicable, meaning it does not apply.
Also a 13amp plug top is an acceptable from of isolation.
I will be getting an e-mail to confirm this from Technical as well.
Cheers Tony
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Martin Bradley
what you have to ask yourself, is the vessel in excess of 15 litres, if so own circuit and therefore a plug would never be put on this type of circuit. always use a spur this would then not allow unskilled persons to incorectly remove IMM Heater and plug IMM Heater in to an extenstion along with other items, or even still plug IMM Heater into house ring from another extenstion.
Its all down to interpretation <Red not Green.
Part P page 53 / 4.5
Its all down to interpretation <Red not Green.
Part P page 53 / 4.5
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tonys
Martin
I don't need to ask myself anything, I just reference BS7671 and everything Ive said in this thread as been correct and complies with BS7671. So if people want go and put a code a plug top on an immersion heater, then they need to justify it, so all the ifs and the buts in the world about the extension lead scenario mean diddly to me in the real scheme of things.
If you have never seen immersion heaters on plug tops then you have not had that much exposure to domestic work in older premises.
From my experiences from years gone by before my time, a lot of the boiler timers were fitted in the airing cupboard with a plug top and so was the immersion heater. Now I reckon this may of been done so if the boiler packed up the occupant would unplug the boiler time clock and plug the immersion in to heat up the water.
I don't need to ask myself anything, I just reference BS7671 and everything Ive said in this thread as been correct and complies with BS7671. So if people want go and put a code a plug top on an immersion heater, then they need to justify it, so all the ifs and the buts in the world about the extension lead scenario mean diddly to me in the real scheme of things.
If you have never seen immersion heaters on plug tops then you have not had that much exposure to domestic work in older premises.
From my experiences from years gone by before my time, a lot of the boiler timers were fitted in the airing cupboard with a plug top and so was the immersion heater. Now I reckon this may of been done so if the boiler packed up the occupant would unplug the boiler time clock and plug the immersion in to heat up the water.
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nickblake
It may well have been mentioned before but i cant see it water heaters fitted to a storage vessel in excess of 15 ltrs capacity should be supplied by its own circuit Immersion heaters should be supplied by a double pole switch with flex outlet complying to BSEN60669-1 or BSEN60669-2-4 , this is according to building regulations page 56 of the electricians guide to building regs ,
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pushrod
What you somehow
manage to omit from the same sentence on page 56 of the electrician's guide to the building regs is the reference to flex outlet connection unit to BS1363-4 which is the standard for 13A fused connection units!!! Which means that you might want to reconsider the rest of your post. A 13A fuse makes it safer rather than less safe. 
To quote the whole paragraph from P56
"Immersion heaters should be supplied through a switched flex-outlet connection unit (to BS1363-4) or a double pole switch with flex outlet complying with BS EN60669-1 or BS EN 60669-2-4"
T
tonys
At the end of the day I would of thought everyone agrees its best practice to put an immersion heater on either a switched fused spur or double pole switch.
But because the plug top method can comply with BS7671 , you have to give it consideration if the sole purpose of the circuit is to feed the immersion heater when carrying out a PIR.
Pushrod - Because it was your thread I hope you don't think I was trying to dig you out, I was just trying to play catch up lol
But because the plug top method can comply with BS7671 , you have to give it consideration if the sole purpose of the circuit is to feed the immersion heater when carrying out a PIR.
Pushrod - Because it was your thread I hope you don't think I was trying to dig you out, I was just trying to play catch up lol
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pushrod
No probs, funny though how a couple of simple questions can generate 8 pages of discussion
D
Deleted member 26818
This is from Wikipedia:
Immersion heater
Water heating by electricity is usually done by an immersion heater mounted in the top of the hot water cylinder. The heater contains an insulated electric resistance heater and a temperature sensor. Domestic immersion heaters (usually rated at 3 kilowatts in the UK) run on the normal domestic electricity supply. Electric shower and tankless heater also use a immersion heater shielded or naked which is turned on by the water passing and turned off when the tap is closed. A group of heater working each one or together provide different heating levels. Electric showers and tankless heaters usually have since 3kilowatts to 7.5kilowatts according the voltage supply. Industrial immersion heaters (such as those used in electric steam boilers) may be rated at 100 kilowatts, or more, and run on a three-phase supply. 11
This would indicate that the elements are in fact insulated.
Immersion heater
Water heating by electricity is usually done by an immersion heater mounted in the top of the hot water cylinder. The heater contains an insulated electric resistance heater and a temperature sensor. Domestic immersion heaters (usually rated at 3 kilowatts in the UK) run on the normal domestic electricity supply. Electric shower and tankless heater also use a immersion heater shielded or naked which is turned on by the water passing and turned off when the tap is closed. A group of heater working each one or together provide different heating levels. Electric showers and tankless heaters usually have since 3kilowatts to 7.5kilowatts according the voltage supply. Industrial immersion heaters (such as those used in electric steam boilers) may be rated at 100 kilowatts, or more, and run on a three-phase supply. 11
This would indicate that the elements are in fact insulated.
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tonys
Pushrod - Goodstuff
Spinlondon - You need to play catch up, that's old news, read the complete thread.
Spinlondon - You need to play catch up, that's old news, read the complete thread.
D
Deleted member 26818
I'll try to keep up.
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tonys
lol good stuff
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nickblake
Opps , sorry about that chaps , after the recent accident and coming within 5 mil of loosing a small part of my male anatomy , i think its effected my brain a tad , what i will say to try and get my self out of the poop is you cant use a plug and socket for an immersion heater regulation 554.3.3 ,bound to have been mentioned before ,again my appologies for the error
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tonys
Nick
Re-read all my posts and then re-read the regulation heading and then see if your change your view ?
Re-read all my posts and then re-read the regulation heading and then see if your change your view ?
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