Automation gate problems

[tino1888]

Hi all,

I am a bit of a newbie on this so go easy

I have recently installed new open/reverse gate hydrolic motors on to residential gates in a property of flats. They have been working fine for two months now and using the old control equipment these where just like for like replacements.

The problem which is happening now is sometimes they are sticking closed, not opening and causing the residents to struggle to get there cars in & out.

The photocells seem ok athough ones glass is shattered a bit. When I go to repair or find the fault there seems to be none and I put them back on auto mode to be used through the keyswitches or frequency transmitters.

The factors are now onto me to fix the problem and I can't fathom out what can be wrong.

I know a fair bit about electrical supplys and control equipment as I am a qualified electrician with Hvac controls experience however this seems to be slightly above my knowledge.

Any feedback or help on this would be appreciated.

Glasgow East

Martin

 

[Engineer54]

Always found automatic swinging gate and sliding gate systems to be nothing but aggravation, especially heavily used systems. I now advise on the use of rise and fall barriers, which i've found to be far more reliable.

 

[High Tower]

I concour with E54!, i have never come across a set of leccy gates that i diddnt want to smash with a lump hammer!

 

[tino1888]

Its so frustrating, the instructions on the old pcb controllers are so complicated. Also i am scared to change the control board over to the new one incase i do more damage than good.

wish there was an engineer out there to put a cape on and come to the rescue.!!

I originally thought, that was an easy job, got a welder in quick , straight forward change over, now the photocells and everything are playing up..

Sleepless nights :-(

 

[spark 68]

^^^ as above, Electric gates are a PITA

Most of the swing gates I have seen rely on a force feedback principle rather than microswitches and the like, a first check would be to see if they are free to move without the arms/rams connected, stiff hinges can cause all manner of intermittant problems, especially when the ambient temperature is low, ie. they could be ok midday, but show up faulty early morning when it is colder.
This can cause the gates to go out of sequence, depending on type.
Another problem is if the arms/rams are not level, or if the hinge to arm geometry is incorrect, as it trys to push and pull on the hinge rather than open and close the gate.

The IR's can be extremely sensitive to obstructions, I once called out to a gate not closing, the cause ?, a spiders web but only when the weather was damp !

I avoid these at all costs these days, as you almost always end up doing multiple visits.

 

[nikmet]

I would try temporarily linking out the photocells to prove they are not preventing operation, most gates iv repaired have had misaligned photocells. they can be linked out on the pcb

 

[tino1888]

thanks for the response spark 68.

Its the most annoying job I have ever had to be involved with,

The new gates are free to move, motors level and free from obstruction. There almost seems to be a problem only in the morning, don't know if its the cold weather creeping in. I thought this and applied extra lubrication to the hinges on friday.

The type of motors are nupi 66, italian make as that what was on it previously.

Im looking into the instructions on the previous control board and gonna re-program the opening and closing tomorrow. I may also change the photocells as one hasnt got the wee glass cover on it.

another wee issue is there is a lot of vandalism around the area and some wee scallywags end up swinging off them i'd imaging

 

[tino1888]

thanks nikmet, i was thinking i'll do that tomorrow.. Nothing seems to be marked up properly with these things.. Suppose im lucky enough to have the instructions to hand..

And in 'ENGLISH' which is always a bonus.

 

[spark 68]

If you do link the photocells out, make sure you don't leave it like that, a little girl got killed not so long ago by the very same thing.
This is a mandatory safety feature.

 

[tino1888]

I seen that there was a lot more regulations and safety features regarding gates and photocells recently.

This isnt the kind of work I usually do tae, just thought it would fairly straight forward to change.

Ive got other photo cells I can change to.

 

[spark 68]

On Some gates they need a termination (EOL) resistor, where only 2 of the 4 possible sensors are fitted, but do check the manufacturers instructions.

Gates have always had quite a few statutory regs associated with them, flashing beacons etc... etc.

 

[tino1888]

the type of controller is a T200 , Telcoma automations. Italian manufacturer.

I got a new elepro 7rp one with the new motors but have resisted using that as it would require changing the radio transmitters etc.. for all 15 residents.

It currently has two entrance keycode switches both inside and outside, these would only require a closed contact when correct code has been entered?

 

[spark 68]

I meant the optical sensors, some gate systems had an option to fit 4 or 6 optical sensors, but if you only fitted 2 then you had to fit an EOL resistor in one or more of the sensor housings (in the terminals on the PCB).

It depends entirely on the manufacturer, so have a look at their instructions if you are going to swap sensors around etc.

 

[tino1888]

I seen resistors in the existing pcb. Id imagine thats what they are for.

 

[spark 68]

Another item to consider is induction loops, this was sometimes used instead of 4 optical sensors, you need a minimum of 2 opticals for safety of persons etc.., the option of 4 or 6 was to stop the gates from closing on a parked car.

An induction loop is basically a big loop (usually 2m X 1m approx) of a couple of turns of wire buried in the driveway, this acts like a metal detector preventing the gates from closing on a car, not all systems have this.

All of these sensors can be linked out temporarily for fault finding puposes, but should not be left like this for the safety reasons given earlier, ie. possible jail sentences if someone is hurt.

 

[tino1888]

The installation doesnt seem to have anything like that.

It has pair of front photocells on entrance from street, pair on inside on exit.

Radio transmitter and receiver , two key code switches , inside and out.

Seems simple but, I'll have a good check at it tomorrow.. They are currently left open on manual and tiedback, very frustrating.!!

If you were near Glasgow I'd pay you for the installation to be fixed.

 

[spark 68]

lol, I don't get involved now, I did work as a tester/commisioning spark --- fault finder for one of the gate suppliers/installers briefly (a couple of months) and believe me it was enough, nothing but hassle and a right royal PITA.

 

[tino1888]

its just very frustrating knowing that the original job was fixed and because of some unknown reason they seem to not work when im not there..

Im reading up on the instructions the now, you think that turning the power output higher would help?

 

[steve50]

have you checked the safety edge strips they can be a bit of a pain

 

[spark 68]

Well this was part of the problem with that job,
you could commision a set of gates,and some of these were quite complex with additional 'man gates' and cctv cameras fitted, extra key points and all sorts of additions (bloody sales people!) on a friday working perfectly, and have loads of irate calls left on the answerphone over the weekend, especially if whoever happened to be on call switched their phone off (and denied it).


Some of these systems cost a bloody fortune, and a lot of it was pilot error, but when these type of customers have problems they (rightly IMO) expect you to jump sharp whether it is a real problem or not, and you were just literally dragged from pillar to post trying to commision and fault find all at the same time.
I found that particular job one of the most stressful I ever had the misfortune to take.

Some of it was down to management, but a lot of it was down to the systems themselves (all different manufacturers), the faults could be highly intermittant, which never helps, and could be mechanical and/or electrical in nature.
It could be that the force feedback system is bordeline, only needing a slight change in external factors to stop things working properly.

 

[tino1888]

spark68, thanks for the help and knowledge of such systems..

I got called away from my own job on friday as the factors called and said there was problems with them opening and when I got there it was working fine.!!!

plan for tomorrow, I am going to check the power output, re-program the opening and closing of the gates, check the photocells are making and breaking and if not replace them.

hopefully in the next 10 month they work fine and I can wash my hands from them. !!

 

[spark 68]

If you suspect a particular module, it works out far cheaper in the long run (time and aggro) to just replace it, but don't just guess, as 9 times out of 10 you will be wrong.

 

[tino1888]

aye true.. the amount of time I've spent on this already is terrible.!!

the new modules I have are slightly different from the ones installed originally 8 year ago.. sure the wiring is the same mind you. 24v + -, Common, NO NC

 

[vaughant]

Get a few drawings up if you can but my guess will be its down to the hydraulic ram system.
There should be a solenoid type valve to operate the gates one way or another,they'll be operational in both directions,check that there's power getting to each plug then this proves it's not an electrical issue.
If that checks out ok then look into the operation of the rams,they can bend quite easily,seals can bypass or even sometimes I've seen the motors not cut out if they don't get asked to and the oil just boils,gets too thin then when you try to operate it,it can just by pass.
The other way round is also an issue,I've seen many a hydraulic lathe not clamp or unclamp when left over a weekend in a freezing cold factory,they sometimes need a1/2 hour for the oil to reach temp.
Best bet is get there early and see what's happenning.

 

[nikmet]

its just very frustrating knowing that the original job was fixed and because of some unknown reason they seem to not work when im not there..

Im reading up on the instructions the now, you think that turning the power output higher would help?

NEVER EVER turn the power higher unless you have a calibrated force meter to check it is within safe limits, gates can easily crush a person to death, be EXTREMELY careful.

 

[ufkir]

what did the welder do was he welding the gates in situ and was the earth disconnected if he was.

 

[tino1888]

Nikmet,

Thanks for the info..
I'm going to sort it out tomorrow as the weather was torrential today.. I'll noo mess about way power output !!
Got a guy who does this work giving me a hand tomorrow..

The welder did the gates when the motors were disconnected.. Also all connections.. He works welding these gates for a company..

 

[tino1888]

Managed to reprogram the controller, added additional lubrication to joints n nuts.

Gates working as normal. Hopefully 'touchwood' that's the last of the hassles.

Thanks for your replys..

 

[tino1888]

Gates have now remained open all night..

Going to try and sort this out today again..

Nuisance callouts

 

[highspark]

Gates have now remained open all night..

Going to try and sort this out today again..

Nuisance callouts

If the glass is mashed on photocells there is your problem. It's like having cateracts they need to see eachother. My bet is condensation is forming thought the crack making it misty and giving the illusion that something is standing in its way. This wwill happen on colder wet nights.