CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 years

[Gavin A]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

Your response is typical of what happens when someone casts doubt on climate change and doesn't warrant a response other than to object to the derogatory term used part way through which could be used against yourself

and I suppose you had perfectly valid answers to my points as well.


eta for the record though, that was a generic reference to numpties on the internet who come up with this rubbish, not specifically to you personally. I can see why you might have thought I was referring to you mind.

 

[Gavin A]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

said it before and i,ll say it again,this global warming is a part of a natural cycle it,s going to happen no matter what we do!The only thingthat does matter is not falling for all the crap spouted by the government,lets face it if it were possible to change things then it would be done without ripping everyone off.make it dearer to use non energy efficient products than green ones,but no they want to put everyone on a guilt trip and take more cash lets face it they tell us to use smaller cars and public transport or walk,well how come they send out 1 minister in a big v6 jag etc.Sorry if this offends anybody but I think that anyone who can,t see whats happening needs to look closer and anyone who falls for all this government clap trap should be locked up in a padded room.rant over!

so us adding approaching 40% to the atmospheric concentration of CO2 to the atmosphere from fossil reserves that have been trapped underground for hundreds of millions of years is just part of a natural cycle?

or is it the solar cycle that you're referring to? The solar cycle that's resulted in a reduction in solar output over the 35 years of satellite measurement at the same time as the earths temperatures have been rising?

 

[Earthstore]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

UNG, not sure why you mentioned a Toyota in reply to my post, my question was about releasing buried carbon, that was all.

 

[Earthstore]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

said it before and i,ll say it again,this global warming is a part of a natural cycle it,s going to happen no matter what we do!The only thingthat does matter is not falling for all the crap spouted by the government,lets face it if it were possible to change things then it would be done without ripping everyone off.make it dearer to use non energy efficient products than green ones,but no they want to put everyone on a guilt trip and take more cash lets face it they tell us to use smaller cars and public transport or walk,well how come they send out 1 minister in a big v6 jag etc.Sorry if this offends anybody but I think that anyone who can,t see whats happening needs to look closer and anyone who falls for all this government clap trap should be locked up in a padded room.rant over!

Phil, read post 7.

 

[Gavin A]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

HERE HERE! nice one U N G no mention by our learned friend of the emminent scientist who had evidence to prove that global warming was a cyclical event and who was threatened with ruin by government bodies!

It's a bit hard to respond to that without knowing who or what you're talking about.

I'll respond in general though to say that arguments about a conspiracy or cover up, or refusal to publish contrary results actually fall flat on their face when someone actually puts them to the test, as happened when a BBC correspondent publicly requested any researchers who've had such papers rejected to contact him with evidence of this.

Of the three papers I did receive, one was far from complete, and another was a review article from an author who endorsed the IPCC position and said the bias was against scientists "supporting man-made climate change".

The third was from Reid Bryson, a US meteorologist and climatologist whose team at the University of Wisconsin has developed its own method of looking at historical climate change.
He said he had had problems getting research published on the extent to which he believes volcanoes drive climate change.
But he had not kept his rejection letters, so it was impossible to investigate specifically.

[bbc]

So when it comes down to it, the reason there's very little in the way of evidence against anthropogenic climate change in the published science doesn't seem to have much if anything to do with any sort of bias, or threats (unless you're saying this guy was so scared he wouldn't even respond to the BBC).

 

[UNG]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

eta for the record though, that was a generic reference to numpties on the internet who come up with this rubbish, not specifically to you personally. I can see why you might have thought I was referring to you mind.

I did not take it as a reference only to myself to deride any objector as a numpty just because they don't agree with your science is derogatory and shows that your only response to their view is to call them names

UNG, not sure why you mentioned a Toyota in reply to my post, my question was about releasing buried carbon, that was all.

Apologies misread your post was highlighting how ungreen a Prius is

It's a bit hard to respond to that without knowing who or what you're talking about.

I'll respond in general though to say that arguments about a conspiracy or cover up, or refusal to publish contrary results actually fall flat on their face when someone actually puts them to the test, as happened when a BBC correspondent publicly requested any researchers who've had such papers rejected to contact him with evidence of this.


[bbc]

So when it comes down to it, the reason there's very little in the way of evidence against anthropogenic climate change in the published science doesn't seem to have much if anything to do with any sort of bias, or threats (unless you're saying this guy was so scared he wouldn't even respond to the BBC).

Somebody cast doubt on WMD and was found with his wrists slashed need any more be said

If it was found it was the crock of ???? it is it would mean one or two less holidays for the government leaders every year

 

[Earthstore]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

Apology accepted, so what about my question
should we keep digging up all this carbon and release it into the atmosphere ?

 

[UNG]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

Apology accepted, so what about my question
should we keep digging up all this carbon and release it into the atmosphere ?

Is it doing the damage it is claimed to be doing but then what is the alternative can any thing be truly carbon neutral?

Unless we have a radical change and return to a time before all the modern conveniences we are all used to like the car, global travel and the plethora of electrical items we all have then I think we are stuck with a carbon economy as most if not all things have a carbon content including ourselves

 

[Earthstore]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

Well I do not know if it is doing the damage that is claimed, it all depends on who is claiming I would think.
but my thoughts are it can not be helping, well can it?

I do except that we have all got used to these comforts, the problem is the revenue that is raised through taxes is now relied on,(and wasted), there are many other options available, but they would stop all this revenue, it is not what may be better for the environment.

If I could offer you a way to heat your home, run your TV, boil your kettle, and transport you and yours around the roads with no running costs, would you be interested?

Do you think the oil companies and governments would welcome such a thing?

Over the last few years I have been researching alternatives, and it is amazing what has been achieved, but it is not allowed into the public domain.

Politics......

 

[babba]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

Money talks and planet earth has no cash, we can live without cash but I think we need the planet.

 

[UNG]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

Over the last few years I have been researching alternatives, and it is amazing what has been achieved, but it is not allowed into the public domain.

Politics......

The rotary ----el engine is a prime example although used in some applications if it became the engine of choice it would have put many people out of work as it needed a lot less parts

About 11 years ago a company in Runcorn called Silent Power closed down they had developed quite advanced traction batteries at the time that were about to come to market and the US government were going to bring in legislation which would have helped but lobbying by the oil companies stopped this happening and the batteries went into storage and the manufacturing and development plant was closed otherwise we may have had battery powered vehicles years ago

Again the alternatives throw up their own problems with the mining of the raw materials and their transport and processing to get the finished product. There is certainly a catch 22 situation or do we have to inhabit other planets or moons to get the materials we need to support the earths infrastructure for future generations

But then does our planet and even the solar system it is in have a finite life and is this just part of a cycle that lasts X thousand or million years before it implodes and starts all over again to replenish itself

 

[Earthstore]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

NSU RO 80, used the ----el, also Mazda in the rx5 then the more successful rx7, and even today in the rx8, the reason that it is not mainstream is reliability as the tips wear so the engine has a short service life, but I am very aware of the ----el engine and how it works.

If what you say is true about the firm in Runcorn, which I have no reason to doubt you, this type of practice is common place, and it backs up my opinion that it is all about money, lots of money.

I feel though that things will change soon, there are thousands of people worldwide working on different technologies, from old boys in garden sheds, through to big industries, I am aware there are many fake ideas too, but some are good and will work.

Back to my point of digging up all this carbon and releasing it into the atmosphere, maybe global warming is a natural process, but do we really need to speed it up?

 

[Gavin A]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

Somebody cast doubt on WMD and was found with his wrists slashed need any more be said

If it was found it was the crock of ???? it is it would mean one or two less holidays for the government leaders every year

if this is the level of your logic and understanding of the situation, I refer you to my previous comment.

 

[UNG]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

if this is the level of your logic and understanding of the situation, I refer you to my previous comment.

With your earlier comment I will not respond to you, you have done what all greens do and resorted to name calling as your defence people who do not agree with your science are not NUMPTIES the same as my Land Rover is "not the bad choice of vehicle" the greens will have you believe compared to a Prius but the greens will have you believe it.

Having found your level it is no different to any of the other Eco friendly greens

 

[Gavin A]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

With your earlier comment I will not respond to you, you have done what all greens do and resorted to name calling as your defence people who do not agree with your science are not NUMPTIES the same as my Land Rover is "not the bad choice of vehicle" the greens will have you believe compared to a Prius but the greens will have you believe it.

Having found your level it is no different to any of the other Eco friendly greens

You've already failed to respond to a single point I've made with anything other than irrelevant nonsense, presumably because you can't, so I don't see that as a particular loss to the thread. Also, given the combative, dismissive way you entered and carried on in this thread, its quite funny that you have such thin skin - it's almost as if you were deliberately looking to provoke this sort of reaction just so you could then cry foul.

In case you missed it, I've rebutted every point you've made - if you actually took your blinkers off you might learn something. I've never had a problem with people who don't know much about the subject asking questions, just with people who clearly know very little about the subject coming along and shouting the odds.

BTW, when you're talking about conspiracies in this area, you might want to look at the fact that you're on the side that is led and mostly funded by big oil lobbiest groups, that despite 25 years of their funding they've failed to find a single scrap of credible evidence to refute the central Anthropogenic Global Warming hypothesis, and have instead resorted to a decades long campaign of harassment, intimidation of the scientists involved, and public disinformation to spread the idea of doubt and uncertainty in the public mindset where none current exists.

Maybe you should ask yourself why it is that the oil industry hardly funds any research in the field at all, but instead puts virtually all the money it spends into PR and lobbiest organisations... including a lot of the same ones that spent 4 decades attempting to deny the link between smoking and cancer on behalf of the tobacco lobby. This isn't conspiracy theory btw,its conspiracy fact.

 

[SolarCity]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

I prefer Sean Lock's take on recycling & our countrys efforts- " like turning up to an earthquake with a dustpan & brush".

Surely its a better idea that the 5 billion (or so) in india, china, US , did their bit? I think then me washing out marmite jars will become fairly insignificant!!!

Maybe so. But if Britain does turn up with its dustpan and brush then at least we can look around and ask why India, China and US aren't doing the same.

 

[dougalthedog]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

Does anyone have any hard figures on how much carbon goes into the manufacture / delivery to the UK of any specific solar panel / inverter? It would be interesting to get some accurate figures for the embodied carbon of a typical 4kW install - presumably we could work out our own carbon footprint for the installation part.

I've heard figures banded about for the carbon payback of solar of between 2 & 20 years but nobody seems to be able to back it up with any figures!

 

[sambotc]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

I'm sure i've read the the UK accounts for 0.6% of the worlds carbon emissions? So the dustpan and brush statement is very true. That said we should be more interested in future proofing ourselves even if the carbon saving doesn't add up, we are running out of fuel and having to go to ridiculous and dangerous places to extract it now. Also being less reliant on big energy companies comes high up on the list in my opinion.

 

[SolarCity]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

About 11 years ago a company in Runcorn called Silent Power closed down they had developed quite advanced traction batteries at the time that were about to come to market and the US government were going to bring in legislation which would have helped but lobbying by the oil companies stopped this happening and the batteries went into storage and the manufacturing and development plant was closed otherwise we may have had battery powered vehicles years ago

Lobbying by oil companies in which country? Surely there is more to it than "This would stop BP selling so much oil........?"

But then does our planet and even the solar system it is in have a finite life and is this just part of a cycle that lasts X thousand or million years before it implodes and starts all over again to replenish itself

Life has been on this planet for 2 billion years. Modern man has been on this planet for around 100-250 thousand years - a blink of the eye in evolutionary terms. Evidence suggests that we are having a huge impact on the Earth's environment and we have only been burning fossil fuels at a large scale for the last 200 or so years.

It may well be the case that this global warming would be occurring anyway and that our activity is having zero impact. Even so, surely when you consider what is at stake it would make sense to act as if we ARE causing this problem and that we CAN solve it. Considering what it at stake I am truly staggered that anyone can take the contrary view.

 

[MorganPVI]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

Some of the denial in this thread is worthy of an Egyptian, ( Da Nile (river) as some posters may not have the inteligence to make the connection)

I'm sorry to say that I hold ZERO hope of reducing carbon emmissions without the total collapse of civilization as we know it. The way in which the world currently operates needs cheap energy to run GDP, without cheap oil there is no growth and therefore no GDP - nothing less than the total collapse of the world as we know it will do it, unless of course the USA, China and India slash emmisions (they will not because emmisions = GDP)

Sadly the way the world is set up requires cheap energy, no rational leadership would risk their place in the world order by placing the current and future posperity of their people before the needs of the Earth.

As a final note - any person thinking that the rise in C02 is a natural cycle MUST also think that the Sun orbits the Earth.
</rant>

 

[sambotc]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

On a side note, what caused co2 emissions to rise above 400ppm 800,000 years ago?

 

[Gavin A]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

On a side note, what caused co2 emissions to rise above 400ppm 800,000 years ago?

I could be wrong, but I think that's simply the length of the atmospheric CO2 record we've got at the minute, so should really be read as being higher than they've been at any point that we have data for, which is a minimum of 800,000 years.

Or to put it another way, they've definitely not been this high at any point that either Neanderthals or Homo-Sapiens have been inhabiting the planet.

 

[Gavin A]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

It may well be the case that this global warming would be occurring anyway and that our activity is having zero impact.

no, it can't be that. All possible natural causes of the warming have been identified and categorically ruled out as being responsible for the level of warming we've experienced.

This is not to say that the natural factors don't have an impact, they definitely do, but they definitely are not the cause of the long term warming trend over the last 40 years.

The solar cycle, and probably the oceanic cycles did however combined with the impact of increasing greenhouse gasses and reduced particulates in the atmosphere in the 90's to result in a steeper rise through that decade than would otherwise have been the case, followed by a slow down in the rate of warming in the last decade.

Or in other words, natural factors are responsible for much of the variation in the rate of increase, but the increased greenhouse gases are responsible for the overall warming trend. WIthout these increased greenhouse gas concentrations (and other human factors) we'd actually have experienced a minor long term reduction in global temperatures over the last 40 years, due to the reduction in solar output the satellites have been measuring over that period.

The graph below is a composite graph of the satellite data we have for the Total Solar Irradiance figures from the top of the atmosphere since 1980. It's a little hard to make out as it's a bit small, but you should be able to see the roughly 10-12 year sunspot cycle in there, with peaks around 1980, 1990, 2000, and that there's been a slightly bigger reduction in output in the trough over the last 10 years, and we're only just heading towards the peak again now. You may be also able to see a slight downward trend overall in the figures, ie both the peaks and the troughs get slightly lower between 1980 and now.

 

[Gavin A]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

Estimates of Total Solar Irradiance (TSI) prior to the satellite record are less reliable, but there have been reasonable records kept of the sunspot cycle by astronomers for 400 years or so, which gives a good indication of the likely variation in TSI.

These records do show a good correlation with warming and cooling periods during that time frame, and is probably the major cause of the warming in the first half of the 20th century, as well as the brief cooling period around 1950-70 (combined with increased sulphate levels in the atsmosphere that reflect the sun's heat away from the earth).

What they can't do is account for the warming over the last 30 years.




http://lasp.colorado.edu/sorce/data/tsi_data.htm#historical

 

[Gavin A]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

what I'm trying to get across here is that we / the scientists involved / know with a high degree of certainty that the recent warming can't be explained by any factors other than the increased greenhouse gas concentrations combined with reduced particulate levels, and land use change impacts.

This is an established scientific truth proven beyond all reasonable levels of doubt, and even virtually all the self proclaimed sceptic scientists accept this when pushed.

What is less certain is exactly how much warming we can expect from further increased levels of greenhouse gasses, largely because we simply have no way of knowing for sure what level of warming will result in various different feedback loops kicking in, and to what extent and how fast they will kick in.

The evidence from the arctic melting though is that these feedback mechanisms seem to be operating far earlier than the IPCC had thought likely / hoped for / and that the increased localised warming from these feedback mechanisms itself amplifies the warming in those areas to increase the feedback. So we've experience only an average 0.6 degree rise across the globe in the last 30 years, but much of the arctic has experienced 6 degree warming in that period, mostly in the last 10-15 years as when the ice melts it leaves dark seas or land behind which absorbs much more heat from the sun, and trapped methane in the permafrost is then released which also causes localised warming, melting more permafrost and releasing more trapped methane etc.


This graph comparing the IPCC predictions of the rate of melting of the arctic ice cover with the actual rate of melting we've experience is a good illustration of this. As it shows, the IPCC's worst case predictions for the melting would have meant we'd not be seeing the level of melting we've already experienced until around 2035.

 

[xiaoneitie]

Re: CO2 concentrations break through the 400ppm barrier for first time in 800,000 yea

Here here! Nice one Weng did not mention, we learned that a friend of emminent scientists there is evidence that global warming is a cyclical event, and government agencies and the threat of bankruptcy!