EPC F...can get to D with a 1.5 kWp south-facing PV system?

[babba]

Anyone tell me or give some guide lines on curtilage of a listed building...

 

[TedM]

Generally the garden. If a large house then paddocks or fields may be outside the curtilage.

 

[TedM]

This article http://www.ihbc.org.uk/context_archive/97/legal/CTX97[6].html gives extensive coverage to it.

 

[danesol]

Hi All, before we ask the Client to spend any money on a new EPC assessment..do you reckon there is any chance they can get to D if they fit a 1.5 kWp system (nice south-facing roof)?

Surely if you want to get a better tarrif after APRIL, you need to improve the house itself which leads to get the better tarriff for the PV Install, not the other way.........

or... fit a Solar water heating system first, along with replacement LED bulbs everywhere, internal wallboard insulation if cavity insul' not possible, better white goods ???

 

[babba]

Sounds expensive wait for the green deal whatever year that comes going on the HITS....

 

[methley]

Methley, It would be interesting to know which permitted development rights were removed, because PV permitted development rights come under 'Part 40' of the relevant Act.

My planning application was in Sept last year which predates the document in your link. At the time my local planning dept advised that permitted dev rights for Solar PV had been removed when the property was built. However another installation of mine in the same village, also within a conservation area, still had those rights and I was advised that planning was not required.

 

[TedM]

The legislation on allowing permitted development on roofs in conservation areas was actually changed from 1st October 2008 in England. The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (Amendment) (No. 2) (England) Order 2008 but if you have raised panels on a flat roof you may still have needed planning permission.

 

[methley]

Hmm, I'm a bit confused now. That document seems to say that development is NOT permitted if the installation is solar PV?

Class C​

Permitted development

C. Any other alteration to the roof of a dwellinghouse.

Development not permitted

C.1. Development is not permitted by Class C if—

(a)​

...

(ii) the installation, alteration or replacement of solar photovoltaics or solar thermal equipment.

 

[TedM]

It's not permitted under Part 1 Class C (which only covers general roof changes) but is permitted under Part 40 (which covers domestic microgeneration).

It's like having a law that says you cannot speed - but having another law that says it is OK as long as you have a blue flashing light.

If solar panels were allowed under Part 1 C then none of the special conditions that only apply under Part 40 (height, visual amenity etc) would be enforceable.

 

[pwboston]

Surely if you want to get a better tarrif after APRIL, you need to improve the house itself which leads to get the better tarriff for the PV Install, not the other way.........

I thought this was the case.

You had to have the D rating Before the solar pv is allowed at the higher 21p tariff, NOT taking into account the solar PV for the rating, can you confirm this is correct?

 

[TedM]

No, that is not the case. The PV can contribute to the 'D' rating if it is needed. But, in this case, the EPC must be carried out after the PV has been installed.

 

[solarcat]

I thought this was the case.

You had to have the D rating Before the solar pv is allowed at the higher 21p tariff, NOT taking into account the solar PV for the rating, can you confirm this is correct?

PWboston, PV can be used to bring the EPC rating to level D, as long as you install the system and get a new EPC assessment done before you send the FIT application. The new EPC certificate will need to be attached to the application and cannot be sent afterwards. For more details, please refer to question 10:
Frequently asked questions - Department of Energy and Climate Change

 

[pwboston]

Thanks for that, althoufh it still makes it awkward i suppose as you have to make sure the assessor takes into account that if it isnt a D rating that the array will make it one afterwards. But still it corrects my assumption.

 

[The Solar King]

You need to set up a suitable arrangement with your DEA. If a building does not make D, do not issue the certificate until work to meet it has been completed.


On the main point, there is not a cat in hells chance of getting from F to D on the strength of PV. You need 55 points for D. PV will add 3. If you have electic storage heating and no cavity wall you will struggle.

If you are off grid for gas, you may be better looking at other technologies such as heat pumps. If you are on grid, going for a new boiler and heating system is a far more cost effective solution.

 

[Gavin A]

how do you get to PV adding 3 points?

my info from our EPC assessor is that it can add significantly more than that, though obviously it depends on the size of system etc. Or did you mean that a 1.5kWp installation would add 3 points?

eta - but I agree that PV alone won't take it from F to D, and would think this would be a major struggle to get up to a D.

 

[Earthstore]

My DEA also informed me that PV adds more than 3 points, so I guess that we have yet another grey area....

 

[The Solar King]

This is an average level. There is some variation. However, compared with other measures the contribution of PV to improving an energy performance level is marginal. Unless a building is close to a qualification level, it would be unwise to rely on PV doing the job.

It comes back to the point made about a two stage assessment. The DEA may also be able to suggest a cost effective measure to help raise the performance of a building.

From my own experience in building renovation and development and a wider interest in energy efficiency, I thankfully have enough knowledge to do a rough assessment of a building. If a building is obviosly way off I can advise the owner they need to look at other measures before PV. Several people have alluded to the basics. A close working relationship with your DEA will soon educate you if this is not something you have had involvement with.

A wider concern is anecdotal evidence already of the disreputable end of the market looking at ways of circumvention and coercing less scrupulous DEAs. One I spoke to had already been made a somewhat dubious offer. Luckily, he ran a mile. As work is thin on the ground for DEAs, I am sure some will be tempted.

 

[The Solar King]

How many points will PV add?
There is no easy answer to this question as the point gain will vary and will depend on the property and the EPC rating before the installation. The only way to tell for sure is to feed the data into the rdSAP software that DEAs use.

 

[Gavin A]

yep.

we're about to start getting an initial EPC done for each quote, followed by a second one after the installation and any other upgrade work.

Not 100% certain if we're going to get a full registered EPC at the quote stage, or just a draft that's not registered until after the installation is complete, with the installation and any other work done being added to the original draft assessment prior to it being registered fully on the system.

I was going to definitely get it done fully at both stages, but have realised that these things then go on a central database, and some customers might well be a bit funny about having this done at the quote stage, plus it could cause some difficulties if everyone was registering these things at the quote stage and coming up with slightly different results etc It could end up with a house having 5-6 EPC's all slightly different, which would really start making a mockery of the whole system.... erm actually, on second thoughts...

 

[The Solar King]

As the EPC will be part of the decision making process for a prospective customer, we will have a system whereby the customer pays for the EPC. The EPC will only be undertaken if there is intent to go with us for an installation. If as a result of the EPC they formally signup, we will reimburse the cost of the EPC. If the building meets D, the EPC will be immediately registered. If they do not sign up, the EPC will also be registered at that point. If further work is required, or the PV will get it to D, the EPC will be registered on completion.

In this way we will not be unnecessarily landed with the cost of EPCs