How not to standard is this rewire?

[JimCee]

Hi,
My son has just (last week) had a rewire done on his house in Leyland. He has just bought the house but a "domino" type consumer unit was spotted and so a rewire was deemed necessary.
He wanted to move in with his girlfriend and 2 month old son as quickly as possible so phoned a website to get electricians to call him with quotes based on the job being done ASAP.
Electrician gave him a quote £3000 and he accepted - work could be done the following week. The day arrived and was completed in the day by "a load of very young people" and the house was in a right state.
They have run 4 spurs in the house which I thought was pretty poor for a rewire and I don't know if this is to regulations.
But the real problem came when I was reboarding the loft. There were a load of chopped wires in the way of the boards so I pulled them back as far as possible and cut them further back. Whilst pulling the wires, the skirting board fell off. Behind the skirting board, there was a hole in the plaster board and an old fashioned connection block (with screws) fell out as did the ends of 2 conductors. One of the 3 wires that came out of this block was in the way of the boards. As conductors had dropped out, obviously an old wire I thought and so started cutting it with my electrical cutters and the upstairs socket ring tripped.
On investigation, the new upstairs socket ring has been cut, the earth conductors cut back - breaking the earth ring, the positive and neutral conductors having been pushed into the connector but not screwed down properly and the cable that I had cut - upon tracing was actually an open live cable - just lying under the loft insulation.
Looking round, the new lighting circuit has been extended - also by means of an old fashioned type connector block with screws in and taped up.
I was furious and phoned the electrician who between my rants told me that it was perfectly reasonable to extend the lighting circuit by means of a taped up connector block with screws to secure the conductors.
The electrician has given my son an electrical certificate (which I haven't seen and probably wouldn't understand) but on reading info on the internet, I cannot understand how he has done a test with the earth conductors on the upstairs ring being cut back at the loose connection block breaking the circuit.
The guy is coming back on Monday to "have a look what is going on" but apart from being outright dangerous with an open ended live cable, are the old fashioned screw type connector blocks acceptable - whether taped or un-taped, are spurs to standard and can I report this guy and if so, who to?
Thanks for any advice,
Jim.

 

[swaRRR]

I don't know how these electricians are making any profit on £3K full re-wires , there is just no margin in that price

The last 3 bed re-wire I did pretty basic re-wire just lights and sockets ( no data , no outside power , no car charging point) I think I ended up spending around £1600-1700 just on gear alone maybe a bit more

£3k would leave me about 2 days to do all the work , it just wouldn't happen

I took 7 days and was knackered by the end , 6 to do the re-wire and day 7 to all the testing and paperwork etc

Use all the cheapest stuff available, can do materials for a grand.

£2k, pay the other lads £120 a day apiece and keep the rest. Fudge paperwork etc.

 

[cireland]

I don't know how these electricians are making any profit on £3K full re-wires , there is just no margin in that price

The last 3 bed re-wire I did pretty basic re-wire just lights and sockets ( no data , no outside power , no car charging point) I think I ended up spending around £1600-1700 just on gear alone maybe a bit more

£3k would leave me about 2 days to do all the work , it just wouldn't happen

I took 7 days and was knackered by the end , 6 to do the re-wire and day 7 to all the testing and paperwork etc

This post is evidence of how they make a profit. They throw stuff in, get paid, and disappear before the customer has time to take a proper look around. usually takes me 5-7 days for a rewire depending on size of house.

 

[swaRRR]

This post is evidence of how they make a profit. They throw stuff in, get paid, and disappear before the customer has time to take a proper look around. usually takes me 5-7 days for a rewire depending on size of house.

Does that include testing before and after?

 

[Risteard]

If you want a big job like a rewire done next week then you have to accept you are not going to get the best job because the guy's doing a good job are generally booked up for weeks or months in advance also the £3K price should set the alarm bells going

I think part of the problem is that many aren't willing to pay a sensible price for this kind of work. It's not helped by loads of people bandying around prices from 20 years ago as a reasonable price for the work. Sometimes quoting these jobs is a complete waste of time due to wholly unrealistic price expectations.

 

[cireland]

Testing ALWAYS completed after.
Most rewires come from testing gone bad. Not one for taking look at old wiring and jumping immediately to rewiring. Find most of the problems come from someone messing with the original installations.
Been in some 40-50 years old places where the wiring has been left alone and usually tests out pretty well.

 

[Baddegg]

Does that include testing before and after?

Not much point testing before a rewire mate….Ze maybe

 

[swaRRR]

Not much point testing before a rewire mate….Ze maybe

How do we ascertain if it needs a rewire if we haven't tested it prior?

 

[cireland]

How do we ascertain if it needs a rewire if we haven't tested it prior?

There are some who buy a place, see old accessories and board, and decide to rewire before decorating.
Doesn't happen too often but it does happen.

 

[swaRRR]

There are some who buy a place, see old accessories and board, and decide to rewire before decorating.
Doesn't happen too often but it does happen.

I get that but wouldn't you go in, test to see if it actually needed doing and then advise them appropriately? Thought that'd be standard faire but i've never done domestic rewires so i don't know how this stuff works.

 

[Baddegg]

How do we ascertain if it needs a rewire if we haven't tested it prior?

 

[Baddegg]

I get that but wouldn't you go in, test to see if it actually needed doing and then advise them appropriately? Thought that'd be standard faire but i've never done domestic rewires so i don't know how this stuff works.

Yes I misinterpreted your question, as a rule you’d be called to the job for various problems beforehand, fuses blowing mostly and you’d know pretty much wether it needed a rewire from often a quick look, older cable etc or else someone has bought an older property and the surveyor has flagged up the electrics (they do this as standard to cover they arse) and the owner is adamant they want a rewire so you quote em, no amount of testing is gonna convince em otherwise as they see the “expert” surveyor as superior to the scruffy sparks

 

[cireland]

I get that but wouldn't you go in, test to see if it actually needed doing and then advise them appropriately? Thought that'd be standard faire but i've never done domestic rewires so i don't know how this stuff works.

Not always. Sometimes people decide to do a rewire because they plan to live in it for years and figure they'll get it rewired so it's done. One less thing to worry about.
Like I said, doesn't happen too often.

 

[timhoward]

I get that but wouldn't you go in, test to see if it actually needed doing and then advise them appropriately? Thought that'd be standard faire but i've never done domestic rewires so i don't know how this stuff works.

A rewire can come about for quite a few reasons, and one of them is certainly following inspection and testing, and finding very old cable, or very low IR results, or such a mess that it's beyond further modifications.
Sometimes it's more practical, lots of houses have far fewer sockets than are optimal.

 

[loz2754]

I get that but wouldn't you go in, test to see if it actually needed doing and then advise them appropriately? Thought that'd be standard faire but i've never done domestic rewires so i don't know how this stuff works.

Indeed. I have done this several times, suggesting alternatives to a complete rewire. But sometimes it's obvious as soon as you walk in the place that a rewire is the only way forward.

 

[davesparks]

How do we ascertain if it needs a rewire if we haven't tested it prior?

By inspecting the installation, testing rarely tells you enough about an installation to be able to know whether or not it needs to be rewired.

Testing may reveal that a particular circuit or cable needs to be re-wired/replaced.

An installation can test out perfectly and still need to be rewired based on the inspection.

 

[davesparks]

I get that but wouldn't you go in, test to see if it actually needed doing and then advise them appropriately? Thought that'd be standard faire but i've never done domestic rewires so i don't know how this stuff works.

Not necessarily, testing doesn't tell you very much about the condition of an installation, and generally most things that fail testing are findable and fixable.

It is inspection that normally reveals a need for more major work such as rewiring.

 

[swaRRR]

Not necessarily, testing doesn't tell you very much about the condition of an installation, and generally most things that fail testing are findable and fixable.

It is inspection that normally reveals a need for more major work such as rewiring.

But why would something need rewiring if the wiring tested fine?

 

[Baddegg]

But why would something need rewiring if the wiring tested fine?

Not enough sockets and unwilling to extend existing cabling (could be right on the limit at IR test) or could be old cabling that’s not had much use…no cpc in lighting circuits is common…although the cables could technically be fine the older an install the more it’s been bodged and butchered over the years to the point were you’d have to recommend a rewire rather than work on what’s there…

 

[swaRRR]

Not enough sockets and unwilling to extend existing cabling (could be right on the limit at IR test) or could be old cabling that’s not had much use…no cpc in lighting circuits is common…although the cables could technically be fine the older an install the more it’s been bodged and butchered over the years to the point were you’d have to recommend a rewire rather than work on what’s there…

Good points

 

[davesparks]

But why would something need rewiring if the wiring tested fine?

Because tests only tell you part of the story, they don't tell you much about the physical condition of the installation. Tests don't tell you how well installed something is, how many joints are in a cable, whether the cable is the right size. Tests can't tell you that the wrong type of cable is installed outdoors, the cable isn't rated for the temperature it's exposed to.

There are many situations where something could test out perfectly but be in desperate need of being replaced.

To give some extreme examples:
A circuit wired in un-enclosed single insulated conductors pulled through joists, chased into walls etc could easily pass all tests but be completely unacceptable.
Bare conductors clipped to a wall could pass all tests.
A 20mtr long cable with 7 joints in it hanging in free-air could pass all tests.

 

[davesparks]

But why would something need rewiring if the wiring tested fine?

You can also flip this around and ask when poor test results would be a good indicator that something needs to be rewired?
The majority of poor or failed test results will identify something which requires repairing but I can't imagine a situation where test results alone would indicate a full rewire is required.

What test results would you be looking for when deciding whether a rewire is necessary?

 

[swaRRR]

Because tests only tell you part of the story, they don't tell you much about the physical condition of the installation. Tests don't tell you how well installed something is, how many joints are in a cable, whether the cable is the right size. Tests can't tell you that the wrong type of cable is installed outdoors, the cable isn't rated for the temperature it's exposed to.

There are many situations where something could test out perfectly but be in desperate need of being replaced.

To give some extreme examples:
A circuit wired in un-enclosed single insulated conductors pulled through joists, chased into walls etc could easily pass all tests but be completely unacceptable.
Bare conductors clipped to a wall could pass all tests.
A 20mtr long cable with 7 joints in it hanging in free-air could pass all tests.

I understand this, but is it fair to make assumptions like the above just because of the age of the installation? Why shouldn't we then make similar assumptions if we're looking at a 15 year old install? Interesting discussion.

And don't get me wrong, if i see something that's clearly outdated i'd rewire it, i'm going to do that to my own home even though it's testing fine. Just saying if we go into a client that doesn't necessarily want a rewire, is it an automatic rewire just because it's outdated and we 'don't know what condition stuff is in' behind walls, under floors etc? If wiring tests fine and we replace like-for-like haven't we done our due diligence?

 

[Risteard]

I get that but wouldn't you go in, test to see if it actually needed doing and then advise them appropriately? Thought that'd be standard faire but i've never done domestic rewires so i don't know how this stuff works.

If someone has requested a rewire then it's not for me to investigate whether they need one or not.

 

[davesparks]

I understand this, but is it fair to make assumptions like the above just because of the age of the installation? Why shouldn't we then make similar assumptions if we're looking at a 15 year old install? Interesting discussion.

No it isn't right to make assumptions based on age alone, but I never said it was did I? Nothing I said in that postade any mention of age.

I find it a bit bizarre that there seems to be a trend on this forum at the moment for using the age of an installation as a reason to recommend a rewire. Some of the installations I work on regularly still have plenty of imperial wiring in perfectly good condition and still in use.

We shouldn't be making assumptions about any installation, we should be using knowledge and experience to make informed judgements based on inspection and subsequent testing.

 

[cireland]

I'm thinking we might be getting off topic.
Guessing the OP has had enough and buggered off to do something better with his time.

 

[swaRRR]

No it isn't right to make assumptions based on age alone, but I never said it was did I? Nothing I said in that postade any mention of age.

I find it a bit bizarre that there seems to be a trend on this forum at the moment for using the age of an installation as a reason to recommend a rewire. Some of the installations I work on regularly still have plenty of imperial wiring in perfectly good condition and still in use.

We shouldn't be making assumptions about any installation, we should be using knowledge and experience to make informed judgements based on inspection and subsequent testing.

I was trying to have an interesting discussion, no need to be defensive dave.

 

[swaRRR]

If someone has requested a rewire then it's not for me to investigate whether they need one or not.

I'm more talking about when the installer says a rewire is needed not when one is requested directly upfront by the client.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I think there is a bit of crossfire here where @davesparks is using 'testing' to mean taking measurements (distinct from inspection) while others are using it as shorthand for 'carrying out an EICR.' I agree with him that evidence to support an argument in favour of rewiring usually comes from the inspection. An exception from my experience was a church wired in imperial MI, which looked in good condition at its first ever EICR. However IR tests revealed that almost every cable run was catastrophically low in insulation and that there were hardly any intact seals in the whole building.

I also agree that there are situations where a rewire is requested or justified on strategic grounds that are independent of the condition of the existing wiring. I.e. that rewiring is clearly a valid approach even if the existing would give a satisfactory EICR.

Hopefully @JimCee will be back soon with the EIC

 

[davesparks]

Only an EICR will indicate whether rewiring is 'necessary.' I'll take a punt that one was not done.

I can't agree with this, you don't need an EICR to know whether an installation needs to be rewired.
Sometimes it is quite obvious without any need for detailed inspection and testing

 

[freddo]

A circuit wired in un-enclosed single insulated conductors pulled through joists, chased into walls etc could easily pass all tests but be completely unacceptable.

Oh dear, that reminds me of that video of the 1 day rewire that was posted here a while back...