How not to standard is this rewire?

[JimCee]

Hi,
My son has just (last week) had a rewire done on his house in Leyland. He has just bought the house but a "domino" type consumer unit was spotted and so a rewire was deemed necessary.
He wanted to move in with his girlfriend and 2 month old son as quickly as possible so phoned a website to get electricians to call him with quotes based on the job being done ASAP.
Electrician gave him a quote £3000 and he accepted - work could be done the following week. The day arrived and was completed in the day by "a load of very young people" and the house was in a right state.
They have run 4 spurs in the house which I thought was pretty poor for a rewire and I don't know if this is to regulations.
But the real problem came when I was reboarding the loft. There were a load of chopped wires in the way of the boards so I pulled them back as far as possible and cut them further back. Whilst pulling the wires, the skirting board fell off. Behind the skirting board, there was a hole in the plaster board and an old fashioned connection block (with screws) fell out as did the ends of 2 conductors. One of the 3 wires that came out of this block was in the way of the boards. As conductors had dropped out, obviously an old wire I thought and so started cutting it with my electrical cutters and the upstairs socket ring tripped.
On investigation, the new upstairs socket ring has been cut, the earth conductors cut back - breaking the earth ring, the positive and neutral conductors having been pushed into the connector but not screwed down properly and the cable that I had cut - upon tracing was actually an open live cable - just lying under the loft insulation.
Looking round, the new lighting circuit has been extended - also by means of an old fashioned type connector block with screws in and taped up.
I was furious and phoned the electrician who between my rants told me that it was perfectly reasonable to extend the lighting circuit by means of a taped up connector block with screws to secure the conductors.
The electrician has given my son an electrical certificate (which I haven't seen and probably wouldn't understand) but on reading info on the internet, I cannot understand how he has done a test with the earth conductors on the upstairs ring being cut back at the loose connection block breaking the circuit.
The guy is coming back on Monday to "have a look what is going on" but apart from being outright dangerous with an open ended live cable, are the old fashioned screw type connector blocks acceptable - whether taped or un-taped, are spurs to standard and can I report this guy and if so, who to?
Thanks for any advice,
Jim.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

are the old fashioned screw type connector blocks acceptable

Yes, if correctly installed in a suitable type of box, fixed in position with the cables secured against movement etc. In that respect nothing has changed. However, under the current regulations, all types of screw terminal must be accessible for maintenance, i.e. not permanently boxed in or boarded over. Where a junction is inaccessible, only jointing systems approved as 'Maintenance Free' to BS5733 may be used, which do not include any type of screw terminals. It is never acceptable to leave terminals or cable joints loose and just wrapped in tape; all must be suitably housed within a fixed enclosure with the cables secured etc.

They have run 4 spurs in the house which I thought was pretty poor for a rewire

Spurs from ring circuits have always been and still are perfectly acceptable, subject to certain standard practices such as unfused spurs feeding only one point, only one spur being taken from each point on the ring etc. If used inappropriately or unnecessarily, they can be an indication of bad design or corner-cutting. Fused spurs feeding multiple socket-outlets are a nuisance and indicate faulty design or working around existing problems.

The electrician has given my son an electrical certificate

It might be interesting to see this posted with the identity of the contractor and customer redacted. However, the 'work' might be sufficiently chaotic that sorting it out renders the present cert irrelevant.

On investigation, the new upstairs socket ring has been cut, the earth conductors cut back - breaking the earth ring,
...
I cannot understand how he has done a test with the earth conductors on the upstairs ring being cut back

If one result is fictitious, they might all be. We can sometimes spot these cases by inconsistencies in the numbers.

a "domino" type consumer unit was spotted and so a rewire was deemed necessary

This amuses me. I have been installing, removing, collecting, documenting and discussing electrical fittings for nearly 50 years without ever hearing this expression. I'm guessing that 'domino' refers to Wylex BS3036 units that have the two coloured dots on each fuse carrier indicating the rating. Who else has heard them called this? On a different note, although rewireable fuses can be a sign of an old installation that is due for replacement, there is no hard and fast rule to that effect. Only an EICR will indicate whether rewiring is 'necessary.' I'll take a punt that one was not done.

I'm sure others will be along soon with ideas on how to proceed with the contractor and remedials. If the general standard is acceptable but there are snags, one should give the contractor an opportunity to rectify them, perhaps documenting them along the way in case the resolution is not satisfactory, OTOH if the 'work' indicates a serious lack of competence or disregard for compliance, you have a dilemma which will probably attract a variety of suggestions from said others....

 

[JimCee]

Yes, if correctly installed in a suitable type of box, fixed in position with the cables secured against movement etc. In that respect nothing has changed. However, under the current regulations, all types of screw terminal must be accessible for maintenance, i.e. not permanently boxed in or boarded over. Where a junction is inaccessible, only jointing systems approved as 'Maintenance Free' to BS5733 may be used, which do not include any type of screw terminals. It is never acceptable to leave terminals or cable joints loose and just wrapped in tape; all must be suitably housed within a fixed enclosure with the cables secured etc.


Spurs from ring circuits have always been and still are perfectly acceptable, subject to certain standard practices such as unfused spurs feeding only one point, only one spur being taken from each point on the ring etc. If used inappropriately or unnecessarily, they can be an indication of bad design or corner-cutting. Fused spurs feeding multiple socket-outlets are a nuisance and indicate faulty design or working around existing problems.


It might be interesting to see this posted with the identity of the contractor and customer redacted. However, the 'work' might be sufficiently chaotic that sorting it out renders the present cert irrelevant.


If one result is fictitious, they might all be. We can sometimes spot these cases by inconsistencies in the numbers.


This amuses me. I have been installing, removing, collecting, documenting and discussing electrical fittings for nearly 50 years without ever hearing this expression. I'm guessing that 'domino' refers to Wylex BS3036 units that have the two coloured dots on each fuse carrier indicating the rating. Who else has heard them called this? On a different note, although rewireable fuses can be a sign of an old installation that is due for replacement, there is no hard and fast rule to that effect. Only an EICR will indicate whether rewiring is 'necessary.' I'll take a punt that one was not done.

I'm sure others will be along soon with ideas on how to proceed with the contractor and remedials. If the general standard is acceptable but there are snags, one should give the contractor an opportunity to rectify them, perhaps documenting them along the way in case the resolution is not satisfactory, OTOH if the 'work' indicates a serious lack of competence or disregard for compliance, you have a dilemma which will probably attract a variety of suggestions from said others....

Thanks for your reply Lucien.

The Connector block where the earth conductors had been cut and the wires fell out was un-taped and not in a box, there were no clips to secure the wires - it simply fell out of the hole when the skirting board fell off (with 2 conductors also dropping out) - the connector block would not have been seen had the skirting board not fallen off.

The lighting extension is just a wire disappearing under a wall with a connection block taped up, not in a box and no securing clips.

When my son saw how furious I was, he refused to give me the electricians full name and address but I will be asking for it again today and I will happily post it.

Yes, I refer to the fuses with 2 dots and yes you are correct that an EICR was not done - but the initial inspection was done by a different electrician who - unfortunately could not do the work for over a month which was not soon enough for my son.

Personally, I would have thought that a live wire lying under the insulation IE not connected to anything or terminated was determined as a serious lack of competence. Had I got hold of the conductors that were bare then I might not be here now?

Jim.

 

[Baddegg]

OP as always @Lucien Nunes is spot on and in layman’s terms without wanting to alarm you it sounds like your son has employed team of “house bashers” as above can you post the certificate up? Redact any personal info and pics/diagrams are always helpful, when you say four spurs? Do you men 4 radial circuits?

Edit if they are having to extend new wiring with connector blocks it sounds like very poor design, or are you saying they’ve joined new cables to old? In which case that’s not really a rewire?

 

[JimCee]

OP as always @Lucien Nunes is spot on and I’m layman’s terms without wanting to alarm you it sounds like your son has employed creme of “house badgers” as above can you post the certificate up? Redact any personal info and pics/diagrams are always helpful, when you say four spurs? Do you men 4 radio circuits?

If I can get the certificate off my son I

Hi,
My son has just (last week) had a rewire done on his house in Leyland. He has just bought the house but a "domino" type consumer unit was spotted and so a rewire was deemed necessary.
He wanted to move in with his girlfriend and 2 month old son as quickly as possible so phoned a website to get electricians to call him with quotes based on the job being done ASAP.
Electrician gave him a quote £3000 and he accepted - work could be done the following week. The day arrived and was completed in the day by "a load of very young people" and the house was in a right state.
They have run 4 spurs in the house which I thought was pretty poor for a rewire and I don't know if this is to regulations.
But the real problem came when I was reboarding the loft. There were a load of chopped wires in the way of the boards so I pulled them back as far as possible and cut them further back. Whilst pulling the wires, the skirting board fell off. Behind the skirting board, there was a hole in the plaster board and an old fashioned connection block (with screws) fell out as did the ends of 2 conductors. One of the 3 wires that came out of this block was in the way of the boards. As conductors had dropped out, obviously an old wire I thought and so started cutting it with my electrical cutters and the upstairs socket ring tripped.
On investigation, the new upstairs socket ring has been cut, the earth conductors cut back - breaking the earth ring, the positive and neutral conductors having been pushed into the connector but not screwed down properly and the cable that I had cut - upon tracing was actually an open live cable - just lying under the loft insulation.
Looking round, the new lighting circuit has been extended - also by means of an old fashioned type connector block with screws in and taped up.
I was furious and phoned the electrician who between my rants told me that it was perfectly reasonable to extend the lighting circuit by means of a taped up connector block with screws to secure the conductors.
The electrician has given my son an electrical certificate (which I haven't seen and probably wouldn't understand) but on reading info on the internet, I cannot understand how he has done a test with the earth conductors on the upstairs ring being cut back at the loose connection block breaking the circuit.
The guy is coming back on Monday to "have a look what is going on" but apart from being outright dangerous with an open ended live cable, are the old fashioned screw type connector blocks acceptable - whether taped or un-taped, are spurs to standard and can I report this guy and if so, who to?
Thanks for any advice,
Jim.

Sorry, I can't see how to edit my original post - pictures attached.
The white connector is between 2 sockets and clearly doesn't have any means of connection for the earth conductor which have been cut back to the outer insulation, not in a box or clipped up.
The end of the live wire that was just sitting under the loft insulation waiting to zap me.
The connector block forming the extension of the lighting extension taped up.

 

[Baddegg]

post deleted duplicate post

 

[Baddegg]

That’s rough man! Again I don’t want to alarm you and it wouldn’t be fair to do so whilst I’m my armchair along ways away but…..if that’s an indication of standard of works I’d be getting the boss on site! Keep us posted

 

[freddo]

The quality of work in those photos looks to be carried out to a very poor standard! Not safe at all.

 

[JimCee]

OP as always @Lucien Nunes is spot on and in layman’s terms without wanting to alarm you it sounds like your son has employed team of “house bashers” as above can you post the certificate up? Redact any personal info and pics/diagrams are always helpful, when you say four spurs? Do you men 4 radial circuits?

Edit if they are having to extend new wiring with connector blocks it sounds like very poor design, or are you saying they’ve joined new cables to old? In which case that’s not really a rewire?

Thanks for the reply.
Not really sure about the radio circuits - 4 sockets have got a single wire going to them I presume connected to another socket somewhere in the house - to my mind a rewire would have been a full new ring without any spurs.
The white un-taped connector hidden behind the skirting board were all new wires.
I haven't un-taped the connector for the lighting "extension" circuit but that is a thought and will do so today.

 

[littlespark]

Any chance he paid by credit card? Might be able to cancel the payment via card company?

Agree that posting the certificate up here will let us spot glaring obvious mistakes, but some items may need an adjoining photograph of the installation as well.

As mentioned, blank off all personal details… we can’t have this companies name on a public forum just to criticise them.

Is the company part of a competent persons scheme? Ie, NICEIC, NAPIT etc? A trade body that can be complained to? Not that they’ll do much unless said company is using the c.p.s branding without membership. (Also likely)

A photograph of the consumer unit is always good. There are recent changes to the regulations as to what should now be included.


I’m sure you know what you’re doing, but as a final comment, please be careful poking about.. there could be more live open ends ready to give you a bite..

 

[Baddegg]

Thanks for the reply.
Not really sure about the radio circuits - 4 sockets have got a single wire going to them I presume connected to another socket somewhere in the house - to my mind a rewire would have been a full new ring without any spurs.
The white un-taped connector hidden behind the skirting board were all new wires.
I haven't un-taped the connector for the lighting "extension" circuit but that is a thought and will do so today.

Yes a full new rewire should have been designed to not include any spurs, although nothing wrong with spurs (if done correctly) it does show poor design unless the design was altered at a later stage and a spur was the only option, in your case that’s not what’s happened I suspect as even with the pics shown those cables could easily have been extended to continue as a rfc….

 

[James]

The work in the pictures is shocking (pun intended)

if your son doesn’t want to share the contractors details with you, perhaps he could join the forum and post a copy of the certificate here with the details removed?

also, some advice is better taken from an independent professional than a family member.

 

[Vortigern]

I should think of those wires in the chock-block were loose it would/should have shown up in the tests as a high resistance. This might indicate (if it does not show up) the tests were not done properly. There is a particular page that is most of interest it is the schedule of circuits usually about page five. The one with all the results on and the list of circuits. Can you post that?

 

[JimCee]

Any chance he paid by credit card? Might be able to cancel the payment via card company?

Agree that posting the certificate up here will let us spot glaring obvious mistakes, but some items may need an adjoining photograph of the installation as well.

As mentioned, blank off all personal details… we can’t have this companies name on a public forum just to criticise them.

Is the company part of a competent persons scheme? Ie, NICEIC, NAPIT etc? A trade body that can be complained to? Not that they’ll do much unless said company is using the c.p.s branding without membership. (Also likely)

A photograph of the consumer unit is always good. There are recent changes to the regulations as to what should now be included.


I’m sure you know what you’re doing, but as a final comment, please be careful poking about.. there could be more live open ends ready to give you a bite..

Unfortunately it was a cash payment - avoid the vat etc….
Will get a photo of the consumer unit but it is one of the new metal ones - might find a bird sitting in the nest which is probably in there
Don’t know if the company is part of a scheme my son wouldn’t have checked for that sort of thing - he just wanted it doing quickly.
Thanks for your reply.

 

[loz2754]

From Best Practice Guide 4 issue 5:

Items that should not be listed as non-
compliances with BS 7671 and do not
require reporting (Mythbusting):

Absence of switches on socket-outlets
and fused connection units.

 

[swaRRR]

Rough as ---- that mate. I wouldn't have my kids in that house unless it's been checked by an actual competent person wielding a multi function tester.

99% chance the cert is all made up figures.

 

[littlespark]

Unfortunately it was a cash payment - avoid the vat etc….

Highly likely there was no contact with any CPS then... No paper trail to follow to investigate.

Looks like hdes been duped big time.

I think a lawyer and legal forum may be of more use than us now.... but we can of course still comment on the workmanship.

or lack of

 

[UNG]

Looking at the standard of workmanship in the posted pictures is the company that did the wiring capable of satisfactorily rectifying all the faults and poor wormanship to an acceptable and proper standard that meets the requirements of the regs, I doubt it is

Given that those pictures are possibly only a small sample of the issues within the installation it is likely it still needs properly rewiring. I would suggest it is a gloss rewire it looks good on the surface but a major disaster is lurking underneath the surface when you dig deeper

I'm not too far from Leyland if you need some advice

 

[littlespark]

I'm not too far from Leyland if you need some advice

I'd take this offer. Minimal price for an eyes-on opinion. Photos can only show so much.

There is a messaging facility within the forum, if you want to contact UNG privately.

 

[swaRRR]

Problem you have now is that someone would be hesitant to even put right what they can see and then put their name to it. I know wiring has already been run in but imo if i was going to sign this off i'd want to totally rewire it so i know exactly what has gone in before i put my name to it - who knows even with testing how many JBs are floating about in the ether, under floorboards, in walls, etc that haven't been done properly.

This could get costly.