Payment Companies

[VoltzElectrical]

but if trying to appeal to a mass audience...such as an electorate....what grabs the headlines more?....a bit of NI the government missed out on....or falling unemployment figures?...

But the work is still there to be done. it's just a question of HOW it's payed for. The companies profiting from this loophole should not be doing so at the expense of the guy doing the work.

Let's keep the focus on the real issue here.

The work needs to be done, let's stop greedy middle men from dodging their responsibilities.

 

[Marvo]

This is only one of a few issues that need sorting out within the industry. The other main one is the need for electricians to have a 'license to practice' like they do in America, Australia, NZ to name a few

These sound like completely separate and unconnected issues. The 'license to practice'would be an industry internal issue not a national government one surely...

Surely the JIB grading is as good as a 'license to practice' isn't it?

Sorry if these are stupid questions but I have zero knowledge of the UK electrical industry. I'm learning fairly quickly though

 

[VoltzElectrical]

These sound like completely separate and unconnected issues. The 'license to practice'would be an industry internal issue not a national government one surely...

Surely the JIB grading is as good as a 'license to practice' isn't it?

Sorry if these are stupid questions but I have zero knowledge of the UK electrical industry. I'm learning fairly quickly though

Yes they are separate, but not unconnected issues. The current government requires certain electrical work to be 'notified' to the local authority. To do this, you can either pay them to come out and inspect the work (very expensive) or notify under a 'scheme'. The madness is though, that to be a member of a 'scheme' you don't have to be a qualified electrician. You only have to be deemed 'competent' which largely involves paying the membership fees.

So although they seem unconnected, they are connected as the whole thing falls under the 'government' and the way the industry is regulated.

 

[flyingsausage]

One spark approached his Labour MP in Glasgow about this two years ago when they were still in power,he pointed out serveral Government funded jobs that this was happening on(a prison,serveral hosiptal jobs etc).

The response was 'any employment is good employment' to say he was angry was a an understatement.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Whereas in the aforementioned countries, you have to take the underpinning knowledge exams, and a trade competency exam, before getting a licence to practice. There is no way you can just apply to a scheme to come out, check a socket installation, see your copy of the regs and cheap as chips PL insurance, take £500 then off you go.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

While time served, excellent sparks, are not allowed to do domestic notifiable works unless they pay their dues to a 'scheme'. No wonder they are called scams.

 

[flyingsausage]

Yes they are separate, but not unconnected issues. The current government requires certain electrical work to be 'notified' to the local authority. To do this, you can either pay them to come out and inspect the work (very expensive) or notify under a 'scheme'. The madness is though, that to be a member of a 'scheme' you don't have to be a qualified electrician. You only have to be deemed 'competent' which largely involves paying the membership fees.

So although they seem unconnected, they are connected as the whole thing falls under the 'governmet' and the way the industry is regulated.

The only time there is any sort of regulation in this industry is when someone gets hurt or dies.

We also need some clarification on the term 'competent person' which is a very loose term at the best.
How can a five week wonder who has bliffed his way through the 2391 be classed as 'competent' against a spark who has been in the trade 20 years but does not have the 2391 ?

 

[flyingsausage]

So the UK government is happy with the status quo even though it's being used as a mechanism to avoid national insurance?

The last Labour lot brushed this under the carpet many times as they were chasing big companies for some donation money.
This government will be no different

 

[flyingsausage]

While time served, excellent sparks, are not allowed to do domestic notifiable works unless they pay their dues to a 'scheme'. No wonder they are called scams.

I do not do domestic work myself but I do agree with you.
This forces most domestic work to be dome on the side or cash in hand.
On every job I go onto nom there is alway some spark with a rewire or a garage to wire or put up some new lights - will any of this work ever get checked no chance.
I do notice that the odd sparks that I do not rate work wise and would not let wire a plug in my house always seem to have plenty off work on the side.

 

[flyingsausage]

These sound like completely separate and unconnected issues. The 'license to practice'would be an industry internal issue not a national government one surely...

Surely the JIB grading is as good as a 'license to practice' isn't it?

Sorry if these are stupid questions but I have zero knowledge of the UK electrical industry. I'm learning fairly quickly though

The full UK electrical industry needs looked into from top to bottom and all the non qualified and cowboys need kicked out of the trade - but it will never happen as money will always win

 

[Marvo]

The full UK electrical industry needs looked into from top to bottom and all the non qualified and cowboys need kicked out of the trade - but it will never happen as money will always win

Why are you so pessimistic when I keep reading about the gas industry seems to have got it right? Why is the electrical industry so different?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

The last Labour lot brushed this under the carpet many times as they were chasing big companies for some donation money.
This government will be no different

of course not...they`l just pick up the ball and run with it....in their eyes it aint broke...so why fix it..lol....i agree that the term `competent person` is crude but if we go down the road that the americans have...it will mean that nobody can undertake work within their own property....a right old police state that would be.....the issue with these part p schemes...is someone who has undertaken the C&G2382 is deemed competent....now anyone who has done this course will know that its really just an on line guess....open book, on line.....not really challenging.....there no requirement to take a qual in inspection and testing either.......its not good enough but they wont raise the goalposts as they know that if they do....there`l be loads that wont make the mark....or thats what they think anyway.....its mad....

 

[VoltzElectrical]

The only time there is any sort of regulation in this industry is when someone gets hurt or dies.

We also need some clarification on the term 'competent person' which is a very loose term at the best.
How can a five week wonder who has bliffed his way through the 2391 be classed as 'competent' against a spark who has been in the trade 20 years but does not have the 2391 ?

surely a 'licence to practice' would eliminate this, as all electrical work would require a 'licensed' electrician who would have to have passed a set of competency exams including the underpinning knowledge?

This would not have to exclude people who re-train later in life (such as myself) but surely exclude 5 week wonders.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

what we have at the mo Marvo...is a system that favours paying a fee....regardless of the feepayers ability to do the work to industry standards.....what this means is you are getting wholly unsuitable people with a licence to install at will....and very bad install it is n all sometimes.....i mean, where do you think all the pics that get posted in here come from?...who do you think`s responsible for a lot of it?......yes, some of its DIY charlie.....but a lot of its kitchen fitters who paid into a scheme....but cant do it to acceptable standards...hell they may have even got someone to install the assessment work for em......thats how slack it all is.....

 

[VoltzElectrical]

These sound like completely separate and unconnected issues. The 'license to practice'would be an industry internal issue not a national government one surely...

Surely the JIB grading is as good as a 'license to practice' isn't it?

Sorry if these are stupid questions but I have zero knowledge of the UK electrical industry. I'm learning fairly quickly though

If only the JIB grade were good enough...

in truth, JIB graded sparks aren't deemed 'qualified' to work on domestic properties without spending a further £500 a year to 'prove' their competency to do so. But this doesn't apply to work on commercial or industrial sites.


This is madness in the extreme, when you consider that guys who have done a 5 week course and pay the fees to the scams, can go and do the work! Where is the sense in all of this?

It's just pure corruption.

 

[Marvo]

How do the schemes add value or how were they originally intended to add value? Do they provide insurance and checks and balances for the customer for example? I'm guessing they must have originally brought something to the party.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

How do the schemes add value or how were they originally intended to add value? Do they provide insurance and checks and balances for the customer for example? I'm guessing they must have originally brought something to the party.

the original concept was to reduce the number of accidents and fatalities associated with poor electrical installations due to cowboys n sharpsters.....but it`s backfired spectacularly....as any number of these characters can just hand over moneys....and your in the club.....it just isn`t regulated properly....the scheme providers arn`t interested either.....its all a bit of a tip really.....

 

[flyingsausage]

The UK electricial industry has two many people with their finger in the pie and they all want a larger share of the money in the pie.
Be it JIB,the IEE,these Napit etc and all the rest including agencies,payment companies and training providers.
Most take money from the trade bit wull never put any money back in.

I would not know where to start if I was to reconmend a way of fixing it.

 

[flyingsausage]

the original concept was to reduce the number of accidents and fatalities associated with poor electrical installations due to cowboys n sharpsters.....but it`s backfired spectacularly....as any number of these characters can just hand over moneys....and your in the club.....it just isn`t regulated properly....the scheme providers arn`t interested either.....its all a bit of a tip really.....

You are correct from reading this forum I do see threads from guys that do not have a clue about electrical work asking for advice from electricians on how to pass the tests to get into these schemes.
These schemes have become a cancer on the trade - they are now only there to keep those that work there in a job and not to do any sort of policing of their members - as they know a disgruntled member will hust jump ship to another scheme.They have just become a money making racket.

 

[Marvo]

Who are the schemes themselves registered with? Is there an industry governing body that oversees them or is it government?

 

[VoltzElectrical]

How do the schemes add value or how were they originally intended to add value? Do they provide insurance and checks and balances for the customer for example? I'm guessing they must have originally brought something to the party.

Not being in one Marvo, I can't comment, but from what i can gather from other threads, they are mainly interested in pursuing people that use their logos without being paid up members.

They don't seem to be interested in helping out people who have received substandard workmanship, nor offer insurance to people who have had substandard work done.

As far as I am concerned, they are just one piece of a money making racquet with the sole trader as the pawn in a corrupt game.

Maybe I'm wrong, and someone will come on here and correct me, after all, I'm not registered and don't do domestic work. But I'll be honest, the thought of having to do two notifiable jobs, and paying all that money to a scam so I can self notify, doesn't entice me into that saturated market when I'll have to do umpteen little jobs to even cover my subscription costs for the year.

No wonder cash jobs rule. the system is set up to favour the unscrupulous.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

well i dont know where it goes from here.....

 

[VoltzElectrical]

this thread is worryingly undersubscribed by some of the heavy weight regulars of this forum.

Come on guys, step up and give some balance to this discussion 'cos I'm out of my depth here.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

http://Building Regulations - Part P certification schemes - IET Electrical

take a look at this Marvo...

 

[flyingsausage]

The reason that cash jobs rule will always be that it is cheaper to get a spark to do a job on the side than get a sole trader spark or a company into do the work as they have alot of overheads which reflect in their prices.

An example is my parents wanted the downstairs of their house painted and phoned a few companies for a quote,they got quotes ranging from £1000 to £1500 for the work.Which to me seemed way over the top.
They ended up using a self employed one man band painter who done it for £550 if they supplied the paint - he only took two days and did a great job.
He only had a small van and worked from his garage so did not have alot of overheads or have to charge VAT like the others did.Plus he got alot of other work from friends of my parents who reconmend him.

 

[flyingsausage]

It would be good if we did have a licence scheme to trade or do electricial work in this country as it would get rid of many unskilled and the cowboys overnight

 

[GLENNSPARK]

It would be good if we did have a licence scheme to trade or do electricial work in this country as it would get rid of many unskilled and the cowboys overnight

but your scheme providers would go out of business....so it wont happen.....

 

[Engineer54]

It would be good if we did have a licence scheme to trade or do electricial work in this country as it would get rid of many unskilled and the cowboys overnight

That's what i keep promoting, Get a National Register of Qualified Electricians, and you won't need these scam scheme providers any longer!!

They won't go out of business, they will just revert back to what they were doing before!! But it will make a bloody big dent in there profitability... lol!!!

 

[flyingsausage]

I wonder who owns these schemes,as there must be some profit in them?