Payment Companies

[flyingsausage]

thing is though....they say theres an oversaturation of the market at the mo in the electrical trade....but out of all those how many are actually qualified, competent electricians.....and how many are just cable pullers and 5 week wonders....

I do not think anyone can have a correct answer for that but I can give my opinion - before the start of the downturn(which was four years ago in my book)there was aclaimed shortage of sparks.
The industry along with the Government of the time though of ways to deal with this instead of putting wages up to attract more apprentices into the trade.
They though up the domestic installer who does a five week wonder course and goes about telling all in sundry he is a spark.
They also thought that they would use these fact track courses to flood the trade with all these 'new sparks' to sort out the shortage problem.
And just when these five week wonders were comming out of their courses by the thousand the downturn happened and many electricial companies were thinking of ways to save money.

The main thing they did was to pump most of their sparks and use agency sparks getting paid less than the rate as their default manning of jobs.
The companies then said how can we save even more money and thought 'lets just use sparks mates and the improvers,who needs sparks anyway'and these guys will be cheaper to employ than sparks - and also lets just use an agency to get the rates down as low as possible.

This is in my book how there is now too many sparks in the country at this moment in time.
With many companies only using agency sparks now that is forcing rates down.
There are far too many agencies out there but the companies are the ones with all the power as a company can just keep phoning up companies till one will say 'yes we can get you approved 2391 sparks for £10 an hour'.
The companies like that fact and use it to their advantage to drive rates down,as they know there will always be sparks out there looking for work,or plenty of sparks mates willing to do the job for £7.50 an hour.

 

[flyingsausage]

well i know i can be opinionated voltz......but i can cope with critisism n all....i wasn`t getting at anyone..my views arn`t aimed at anyone in particular....and i agree that its something that needs sortin.....i dont like the idea that folk are getting scammed...apparently legally....needs to go does that.....

Well said - we are getting scamed by these scum agencies and scum employers that use them.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

2391 sparks for £10 per hour......well at one point i think it was £8 per hour....thing is though.....if all you are doing is going round replacing lamps...or something like that...you dont need to be 2391....but some of these agencys are still insisting on it....so thats a way of getting a 2391 sparks on the books for the kind of rate they want to pay for lamping up....or something like that....

 

[VoltzElectrical]

2391 sparks for £10 per hour......well at one point i think it was £8 per hour....thing is though.....if all you are doing is going round replacing lamps...or something like that...you dont need to be 2391....but some of these agencys are still insisting on it....so thats a way of getting a 2391 sparks on the books for the kind of rate they want to pay for lamping up....or something like that....

This is obfuscating the issue.

I you want lamps replacing, employ a mate.

If you want conduit installed, employ an improver.

If you want circuits wired, employ a spark.

If you want things tested, employ an approved spark.

BUT, and here is the CRUX of the issue...

Pay the appropriate rate. And pay it to the bloke through the appropriate channel. DON'T try to duck your obligations of NI contributions, when the guy is working for you for 6 months on daywork and try to claim he is self-employed then let him take it on the chin to the tune of nearly £30 a week off his wages for the privilege of getting paid.

This is the real issue here guys, the loopholes that are being exploited at the expense of the man at the coalface.

 

[Marvo]

How long has the payment company 'loophole' been exploited and why doesn't it sound like there's any legislation in the pipeline to close it?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

This is obfuscating the issue.

I you want lamps replacing, employ a mate.

If you want conduit installed, employ an improver.

If you want circuits wired, employ a spark.

If you want things tested, employ an approved spark.

BUT, and here is the CRUX of the issue...

Pay the appropriate rate. And pay it to the bloke through the appropriate channel. DON'T try to duck your obligations of NI contributions, when the guy is working for you for 6 months on daywork and try to claim he is self-employed then let him take it on the chin to the tune of nearly £30 a week off his wages for the privilege of getting paid.

This is the real issue here guys, the loopholes that are being exploited at the expense of the man at the coalface.

but the present status quo dictates otherwise....as you say here..it aint on....i actually sympathise with people forced into this position..i really do....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

How long has the payment company 'loophole' been exploited and why doesn't it sound like there's any legislation in the pipeline to close it?

well there wont be any legislation to close it will there....as the government can claim to be `creating employment opportunities`....and somebody someware...no doubt with influence over policy...will be making cash out of this racket.......

 

[Marvo]

So the UK government is happy with the status quo even though it's being used as a mechanism to avoid national insurance?

 

[VoltzElectrical]

How long has the payment company 'loophole' been exploited and why doesn't it sound like there's any legislation in the pipeline to close it?

I don't know Marvo, but it's catching on with a lot of agencies. As i have previously stated, I don't know the best way to address this phenomenon, maybe approach my local MP? i worked for an agency for 6 months last year, paying £18 a week to get paid by the umbrella company, so believe me, I know what it's all about.

Will the authorities listen? I doubt it.

This is only one of a few issues that need sorting out within the industry. The other main one is the need for electricians to have a 'license to practice' like they do in America, Australia, NZ to name a few. None of this competent person scheme rubbish that you pay annually for.

We need to stand up for our industry soon, but I fear we will not and that will be that.

any suggestions welcomed.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So the UK government is happy with the status quo even though it's being used as a mechanism to avoid national insurance?

but if trying to appeal to a mass audience...such as an electorate....what grabs the headlines more?....a bit of NI the government missed out on....or falling unemployment figures?...

 

[VoltzElectrical]

but if trying to appeal to a mass audience...such as an electorate....what grabs the headlines more?....a bit of NI the government missed out on....or falling unemployment figures?...

But the work is still there to be done. it's just a question of HOW it's payed for. The companies profiting from this loophole should not be doing so at the expense of the guy doing the work.

Let's keep the focus on the real issue here.

The work needs to be done, let's stop greedy middle men from dodging their responsibilities.

 

[Marvo]

This is only one of a few issues that need sorting out within the industry. The other main one is the need for electricians to have a 'license to practice' like they do in America, Australia, NZ to name a few

These sound like completely separate and unconnected issues. The 'license to practice'would be an industry internal issue not a national government one surely...

Surely the JIB grading is as good as a 'license to practice' isn't it?

Sorry if these are stupid questions but I have zero knowledge of the UK electrical industry. I'm learning fairly quickly though

 

[VoltzElectrical]

These sound like completely separate and unconnected issues. The 'license to practice'would be an industry internal issue not a national government one surely...

Surely the JIB grading is as good as a 'license to practice' isn't it?

Sorry if these are stupid questions but I have zero knowledge of the UK electrical industry. I'm learning fairly quickly though

Yes they are separate, but not unconnected issues. The current government requires certain electrical work to be 'notified' to the local authority. To do this, you can either pay them to come out and inspect the work (very expensive) or notify under a 'scheme'. The madness is though, that to be a member of a 'scheme' you don't have to be a qualified electrician. You only have to be deemed 'competent' which largely involves paying the membership fees.

So although they seem unconnected, they are connected as the whole thing falls under the 'government' and the way the industry is regulated.

 

[flyingsausage]

One spark approached his Labour MP in Glasgow about this two years ago when they were still in power,he pointed out serveral Government funded jobs that this was happening on(a prison,serveral hosiptal jobs etc).

The response was 'any employment is good employment' to say he was angry was a an understatement.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

Whereas in the aforementioned countries, you have to take the underpinning knowledge exams, and a trade competency exam, before getting a licence to practice. There is no way you can just apply to a scheme to come out, check a socket installation, see your copy of the regs and cheap as chips PL insurance, take £500 then off you go.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

While time served, excellent sparks, are not allowed to do domestic notifiable works unless they pay their dues to a 'scheme'. No wonder they are called scams.

 

[flyingsausage]

Yes they are separate, but not unconnected issues. The current government requires certain electrical work to be 'notified' to the local authority. To do this, you can either pay them to come out and inspect the work (very expensive) or notify under a 'scheme'. The madness is though, that to be a member of a 'scheme' you don't have to be a qualified electrician. You only have to be deemed 'competent' which largely involves paying the membership fees.

So although they seem unconnected, they are connected as the whole thing falls under the 'governmet' and the way the industry is regulated.

The only time there is any sort of regulation in this industry is when someone gets hurt or dies.

We also need some clarification on the term 'competent person' which is a very loose term at the best.
How can a five week wonder who has bliffed his way through the 2391 be classed as 'competent' against a spark who has been in the trade 20 years but does not have the 2391 ?

 

[flyingsausage]

So the UK government is happy with the status quo even though it's being used as a mechanism to avoid national insurance?

The last Labour lot brushed this under the carpet many times as they were chasing big companies for some donation money.
This government will be no different

 

[flyingsausage]

While time served, excellent sparks, are not allowed to do domestic notifiable works unless they pay their dues to a 'scheme'. No wonder they are called scams.

I do not do domestic work myself but I do agree with you.
This forces most domestic work to be dome on the side or cash in hand.
On every job I go onto nom there is alway some spark with a rewire or a garage to wire or put up some new lights - will any of this work ever get checked no chance.
I do notice that the odd sparks that I do not rate work wise and would not let wire a plug in my house always seem to have plenty off work on the side.

 

[flyingsausage]

These sound like completely separate and unconnected issues. The 'license to practice'would be an industry internal issue not a national government one surely...

Surely the JIB grading is as good as a 'license to practice' isn't it?

Sorry if these are stupid questions but I have zero knowledge of the UK electrical industry. I'm learning fairly quickly though

The full UK electrical industry needs looked into from top to bottom and all the non qualified and cowboys need kicked out of the trade - but it will never happen as money will always win