pulling the fuse

[Phil]

requested by the apprentices favourite teacher "amber leaf"
Amber has asked if we can have a discussion and a poll for the results

regarding the pulling of the fuse to which i think we all know where we stand regarding the DNO etc and not being allowed to. i will include a poll at the top for your thoughts.

 

[ezzzekiel]

although currently ahead in the pole i cant see how holding the 2391 in any way would show competence in service fuse removal its a test & inspect cert.

personally a dno course i still hold a valid pto and although not rocket science i believe a one day training course is best way forward on this.

 

[accordfire]

There is another issue to using JIB gradings and registration as it currently stands.

Effectively, we would be putting control of all of this into a commercial organisation - i.e. one out to make a profit.

The DNOs will never agree to handing over their profits to another.

IMVHO, it is beyond time that our government - the prime body who is charged with care of our nation in ALL respects, in every possible avenue - takes hold of the whole shooting match, and seriously thinks about how ALL trades go forward.

And I mean this from pre-apprenticeship (i.e. during our school days) right the way through until retirement. A unified register of trades, maintained by a government body, at tax payers expense, which is (a) Easily accessible, (b) maintained DAILY, (c) Understandable to the public (d) reflect the REAL skills of trades people, including a summary of fines, bans, etc, and (e) makes it EASY for trades to register work, gain compliances, meet standards, access training, and provide fully qualified, quality work.

This "body" would also take away the need for COMPANIES to pay up to trades association for approvals that don't factually do very much at all, and place the requirements for "approval" on every single trades person out there, irrespective of company. The companies, in trun would then be able to employ only qualified people in the right places, and would have a clear structure for taking on new blood.

It would also, at a stroke, cut cowboy trading out.

I know there are a million "buts" and "what if's" to this, but in principle, it is the ONLY way, we're ever going to get past any of the issues which affect the state of our industry, and every other one. Simply, qualifications and approvals need to be on the individual and NOT on the company, and they need to be centralised under an impartial body of regulation and licencing.

The fees we pay as an industry, and the hidden costs all of us pay through employment - that's where the money for it comes from, as well as approximately one penny in every hundred on an electricity bill, and one penny in every hundred on a gas bill - and for the other trades, one penny in every hundred on council tax, as every occupied building has this charge.

Who can tell me why a National Register of trades, collated from what we have today from SIC codes, to C&G records, to approvals databases, could not be worked into a system that benefits everyone, from the bottom to the very top?

 

[Sparky Ninja]

although currently ahead in the pole i cant see how holding the 2391 in any way would show competence in service fuse removal its a test & inspect cert.

personally a dno course i still hold a valid pto and although not rocket science i believe a one day training course is best way forward on this.

2391 covers isolation and working on live supplies. Covering a topic such as this would only require one additional outcome to the course.

Having DNO run courses will just become another money maker with a load of unnecessary fat packed in it to fill a day.

 

[IQ Electrical]

This is the SP course description, one of our guys did it for a job in Berwick with multiple incomers and apart from a letter to IQ Electrical confirming authorisation, we received nothing else from SP (I was expecting at least a certificate/ID badge for the individual!

I recall that the 4 hours cost us around £200...

Powerlearning - Training Courses and Conference Facilities

 

[Mr.Si]

I was listening to Radio 2 on the way home from work the other night and there was a guy being interviewed by Simon Mayo. The guy was some one from an electricity board and they some how got on to the subject of inspections and re-sealing meters etc. He said that a few years ago it would have been an offence to do so, but these days they don't bother - too much effort. He said it's so hard to tamper with the meters these days, especially the electronic ones.

It heard that and thought of this thread! So there's my update.

 

[SMB]

I think a course run by the DNO would be a great idea, and, ofcourse, I don't think there should be a charge for said course. Spose the difficult part is......who qualifies for such a course?

Maybe thats where the 2391 qualification comes in?

Competence? How do you judge it though?

Ive only just passed my 2391, but I passed my 2360 (1+2) between 1985-1987. I am competent. I dont take risks. However, Im no more clever now to pull the main fuse than I was before having the 2391 cert. (infact, i learnt about pulling main fuses when I was 16 (with no qualifications), im now 42 (with bundles of qualifications).

I won't post here that I have 'pulled the fuse' but I will post that I have seen it happen many times, most rewires ive seen involve the fuse being pulled. You would be VERY STUPID to attempt to dis-connect and re-connect live tails (im sure we all agree)? Ive never seen anyone try to do it live. Ive also never heard of anyone getting into trouble from the DNO for pulling the main fuse. I also have never seen a main fuse that looked so dodgy that you wouldnt want to 'pull it', although im sure they must exsist (from what im reading, they certainly do exsist).

Im gona show a little bit of ignorance here, but please don't shoot me down in flames. Ive read that there are worries about flash overs and arcing when pulling the main fuse.....but why would that happen if the the consumer unit you are isolating is switched off? I do understand the danger of a deteriated main fuse though and the dangers that entail from that.

Im only just coming back into this type of work. Ive read that the DNO are installing isolators to assist with this issue, but im yet to see such an isolator.

The DNO isolator is the answer to this debate I think, but ofcourse, this is out of our hands.

I voted for the 'lets all sit a (free) course' idea.

Education is where its at.

(Please note........im on your side).

Ta.

 

[solo2771]

My oppinion is it should be a legal responcerbility for the dno to provide a cutout so no fuses need pulling.
Paul

 

[nickblake]

In my opinion from the meter to the CDU should be the responcabilty of the DNO as we are not allowed to remove the fuse , there for they should install a switch for isolation and change the tails where nessesary once this is done they could cover the fuses with a box and have the swtch on the out side simple ,also they should lable the fuse carrier exactly what is in it current rating 60amp 80 amp 100 amp and type BS88 / BS1361 etc

 

[ricardo123]

JIB Approved Electricians only.

 

[solo2771]

In my opinion from the meter to the CDU should be the responcabilty of the DNO as we are not allowed to remove the fuse , there for they should install a switch for isolation and change the tails where nessesary once this is done they could cover the fuses with a box and have the swtch on the out side simple ,also they should lable the fuse carrier exactly what is in it current rating 60amp 80 amp 100 amp and type BS88 / BS1361 etc

Anyone had carrier saying 100A but 60 A inside? lol they a joke
paul

 

[Sparky Ninja]

JIB Approved Electricians only.

Why exactly?

 

[DurhamSparky]

JIB Approved Electricians only.

why JIB....!!

i never registered with JIB but hold same qualifications as approved electricians!! plus what have JIB got in the Part P market!!??? nothing jack diddly!! why not as part of your Part P assessment???

 

[mogga]

I have had training by scottish Power at cumbernauld years ago as part of package for Strathclyde Regional cooncil The course covered all types of cable heads and the possable failurs which could occur It also covered all the dangers that may be encountered and some heads we werent to touch but to ring S.P. n inform them of this head and have it replaced ASAP Some of the vidios for the coure should be made available to training orginisations to show what can and what has gone wrong
Having answered the question " To pull or not to Pull? a few times it surprises me the gung ho aptitude and advice some people give "Just pull it , the seal wasnt there!, ect e ct ect quoting HSE safe isolation doesnt work as after removal what do you do with the bare contact at bottom of fuse?? " rant over

 

[amberleaf]

This is my view only .

Correct me if am wrong . every Tom-Dick & Harry can get on the “ Part P ” Issue . Plummer’s . Kitchen Fitter . Joiner’s . Maybe the Postman if he put’s his hand to it . ( There is a need for some form of Control over the Enthusiastic but Unknowing Amateur )

Electricians . have Gained there Meal Ticket by working there way up the Ladder . 2391-10 . PS next step HND ? etc .
Your Greatest Asset just got better . the Failed rate of 2391-10 is high . for the 2391-10 that did pass . this speaks volume’s .

This Industry has to safe guard it’s own . ( I think Electricians have been Screwed enough for Money )
“ Part P ” Issue . Plummer’s . Kitchen Fitter . Joiner’s . I don’t see them going for there 2391-10 .

Competent Person is a purposefully loose description . to allow a number of Criteria to fit .
It the Fundamental Level . it is “ Someone able to do the Job “
You then Expand this be Qualifying why they can do the Job . this may be Demonstrated by Years of Experience . ( or a Certain Qualification )

Just a Though !
A Nurse may give an Injection without really Understanding the mechanism whereby the Drug Work’s .
The Important thing is to Know how to give the Injection “ Safely “ & to check the Dose against Instruction’s

 

[topquark]

I think the various DNOs should be made to provide the method of isolation that they are already supposed to be providing (fat chance of that though).

 

[ricardo123]

Anyone can be Part P, plumbers, chippies, etc. I don't think anyone off the street should be pulling fuses but I think that a JIB Approved Electrician should have the experience and knowledge to have an understanding of how to do it safely and be aware enough to know if they think there is a problem to call the DNO to upgrade.

This is all comes back to the mess that is Part P.

Most of the work that is really rough IMO is done by DIY'er's, kitchen fitters and plumbers, Part P does not protect all household occupants from dangerous workmanship. Its a total mess at the moment and I don't think they really know what they are doing, the ECA, EAS, etc. I have met lots of DIY'ers who have had a go at doing their electrics and then ask you to do a fuse board change. Many faults are hidden from the eye of the electrician under the floorboards or behind walls. It's only when you do rewires of properties that you realise what people get up to.

If the industry really wants good practice then I personally think they should not allow the sale of electrical items to the general public and only JIB Approved Electricians should be allowed to be qualifying supervisors.

Anyway I could be totally wrong about all this, its just my opinion at the end of the day.

Regarding the bare contact at the bottom of the fuse...this is not the same as working live as I am sure you are aware..when doing your Zs testing you are often working close to live contacts all the time so I don't see that as a problem. The DNO's will never let sparks mess with their equipment so the situation will continue, if there was an easy way of getting them to come out and add an isolator then there would not be a problem but they are not interested as there is no money in it for them.

 

[oldtimer]

OK I have proposed this before so here goes again you could register online and buy coded plastic seals from the DNO say for £10 and when you do a job where on safety grounds you have to pull the fuse then you could do so and replace it with the coded plastic seal then you log on to a common register and record
1. The current meter reading.
2. The meter serial number
3. The size make and rating of the actual fuse
This info would be open to anyone so if there is a PIR to be done on the property the following year they get the info.
The £10 fee would go to the DNO who may do a spot check at the property so you have a fully qualified or responsable person to complete this work and save the DNO time and money but what about fraud I hear you say well the DNO has data on how much power has been used in the past so they would spot any patterns of anybody trying to work the system

 

[ricardo123]

oldtimer nice post sounds about right to me, if only we could get that adopted.

 

[oldtimer]

oldtimer nice post sounds about right to me, if only we could get that adopted.

Well I would like to think common sense would prevail but once they (napit /NIECE/Select) get a hold of it they will want to manage it or in other words get exclusive rights to keep non members out so I am afraid that before this happens we need to simplfy the registration of electricians ie central register that logs your qualifications / photo ID JIB grade and confirms that you have PLI etc this could be run by the JIB and the register is open to anybody the electrician would have to pay say £30 a year for the admin side of things and when joe public gets you in for a quote they can check the register to confirm that you are legit but then again me thinks Select/Napit/NIECE ect would fight tooth and nail against simplification because any loss of power for them is a no no. The thing is they are good at training and guiance for the rules and regs and I am quite happy with that but this registration thing in my view is in theory ok but in practice open to abuse ie a non technical person starts a registered company with say 5 east european sparkies who are still blowing the ink dry on their countries grading card where the one man band ie me with 36 years under his belt is put into the same group as the cowboys because I am not big enough.

Mind you was it not the Tories who said small business will grow us out of the recession

 

[ricardo123]

Bloody hell your a fountain of common sense, if only we could get both idea's adopted, the JIB one and fuse one. If I write to some MP's and the JIB and others do you mind if I use your idea's. Would be great to get rid of the Part P scheme and also finally have a scheme where sparks can get on with their bloody work without worrying whether a DNO is going to smack them on the ar**.