Reduction in electrical work

[5544]

I presently do domestic gas, plumbing and electrical work.
I have worked out that 85% of my work is not electrical any more, and what I have been doing is not required to be registered.
I only seem to get called out in my area to be asked to certify other non registered electricians work or builders work, give quotes which others then undercut, or make good any bodged jobs that others have done. My area in Hampshire is saturated for trades, especially electrical trades.
Even though I have done electrical work for over 20yrs I am seriously thinking of just dropping it now due to:
1. too much competition
2. Elecsa costs
3. constant purchase of new books,
4, constant amendments
5. The yearly 4hr inspection where I have to struggle each time to find work for him to see.
6. The added cost of the test equipment and upkeep.
7. My mate who helped with re wires is retiring and i am not prepared to do a full re wire on my own anymore.

As sad as I am at getting to this point my question is,

My gas insurance does cover electrical works, which is currently how I am insured presently.
If I decided NOT to renew my Elecsa registration, and just did minor electrical work that did not need certification, and was still current with regulations, is that still allowed.

Please do not swear in any replies. I am genuinely asking!

 

[sinewove]

I presently do domestic gas, plumbing and electrical work.
I have worked out that 85% of my work is not electrical any more, and what I have been doing is not required to be registered.
I only seem to get called out in my area to be asked to certify other non registered electricians work or builders work, give quotes which others then undercut, or make good any bodged jobs that others have done. My area in Hampshire is saturated for trades, especially electrical trades.
Even though I have done electrical work for over 20yrs I am seriously thinking of just dropping it now due to:
1. too much competition
2. Elecsa costs
3. constant purchase of new books,
4, constant amendments
5. The yearly 4hr inspection where I have to struggle each time to find work for him to see.
6. The added cost of the test equipment and upkeep.
7. My mate who helped with re wires is retiring and i am not prepared to do a full re wire on my own anymore.

As sad as I am at getting to this point my question is,

My gas insurance does cover electrical works, which is currently how I am insured presently.
If I decided NOT to renew my Elecsa registration, and just did minor electrical work that did not need certification, and was still current with regulations, is that still allowed.

Please do not swear in any replies. I am genuinely asking!

5544,
I agree with you entirely about the ongoing costs of scheme membership,etc
been excessive if not much notifiable work is been done.You can do minor works,with some exceptions in bathrooms afaik and ind/commercial work.
Regards,Hz

 

[Midwest]

I made the decision to jack it in early 2018, I was just doing domestic electrical work. I had a disagreement with my main provider of work, so it wasn't going to be financially viable.

To carry out a professional business, still doing minor electrical works you'll still need insurance, calibrated test equipment and IMO still have the latest BS7671 qualification to your company.

Therefore, if it fits with your business model, get the electrical work done by someone else. I think in your line of work, you'll come across more notifiable work, than not.

PS; you should not be doing the third party certification, its not ratified by Elecsa, and therefore you could be breaking regulations under Part P.

 

[peterhyper]

I am not surprised by your comments with regards electrical work. I get more people turn my quotes and hourly rate down than in the past (I've not increased them for ages). There are also lots more sparks in my area than ever before, and I was reading their reviews, and one customer wrote how the electrician did a full electrical check of their house 'free of charge.'

Even some regular customers are going with cheaper quotes from newbie sparks trying to get their foot in the door, but I absolutely refuse to match other sparks low quotes or their low hourly rates because I charge a fair rate and I would frankly rather watch TV than under sell myself.

I also get asked quite frequently to sign off other peoples work, and I refuse to do it (I know some sparks will though).

I am fortunate not to have a mortgage or kids to feed, so I can afford to turn the rubbish jobs and timewasting people down, but it's the decent self employed sparks with families to feed and a mortgage/rent to pay that I feel sorry for.

 

[5544]

My electrical work has really slowed. A few years ago I was fitting at least one consumer unit a month, and got asked to do at least 5 rewires a year around my gas work. Last year i did not do any re wires, and only two consumer units. Next year I have £550 for Elecsa fees, possibly new books again, the 18th edition training which I have been putting off at £400.00, which If we are honest has very little domestic changes in it for me apart from again re listing things in different places and introducing Arc and surge protection rules.
so in reality i will be again £1000 out of pocket to allow other builders to undercut me and get a mate to sign off their work. It just does not seem worth it. The heating side of work is still good, but i am lucky to have another source of income, i would never afford my mortgage just being self employed. Was always shocked by that.

 

[Devonchris]

I think the problem is more the fact that cowboys are attracted to electrical work because 95% of the end product is covered up. So the customer is not really sure what they have got, and most have no idea about certification. So, as long as it works, it's ok. With plastering, tiling or joinery, say, the bodge job is more obvious, and the cowboys get found out.

Electrical work is an artisan skill which only comes with repetition but a lot of people fail to acknowledge this, hence the trainee who is questioning the quality of his side cutters because he can't do terminations like the other guys on site. It's take time and hundreds of repetitions to develop the muscle memory and skill (Just like plastering) It's an unfortunate situation for professional electricians but until the general public are made more aware, something that the schemes should be jointly funding, its likely to continue.

 

[peterhyper]

Sorry error in post

 

[Dustydazzler]

I'm struggling to justify scam membership , been doing more office stuff these days and less domestics.
Domestic was my bread and butter for decades but so much competition coupled with scam fees and slow paying customers are putting me off.
The money is less on the current site but I rock up at 8.30 and leave at 3.30.
I can live with that and no stressing about keeping the customers house clean or moving 30 pieces of furniture before I can even start.

 

[Leesparkykent]

No disrespect but maybe it’s because you’re business model of being a plumber, gas fitter and electrician...maybe to some people you would come across as a bit of a jack of all trades.

 

[Midwest]

No disrespect but maybe it’s because you’re business model of being a plumber, gas fitter and electrician...maybe to some people you would come across as a bit of a jack of all trades.

There's some customers that like that all in the one box approach. Having been involved in a lot of kitchen & bathrooms refurbishments, until I jacked all in, I do think its best to use each trade on its own. Takes some organising, mind.

 

[Dave OCD]

From another perspective me and my son are busier than ever, beyond what we can realistically keep up with to be honest and I have to turn some down, it's surprising how many people will wait though if you've been recommended.
The main problem for me is jobs where other trades are also involved - they always seem to be in the way and seem to not care less about working in mess and rarely cleaning up, if you don't keep an eye out your kit gets covered in crap from them, the days of trying to help each other out seem long gone sadly.

 

[Anthony S]

I ain't been on for a while, but it as been said many times in the past that it was always a race to the bottom in the domestic sector.

Domestic work is the least involved and anyone can have ago at it (forget all the legal stuff, like part p etc authorities like building control, they enforce nothing) its a cut throat game and saturated with wanna be Sparks who do silly short courses not worth anything in the wide scheme of the game.

Hazard a guess Price is king 90% of the time from my past experience unless you had a genuine book of customers. But even then they start to think your over charging.

Give it up and get into a skill sector where the unskilled, semi skilled won't get entertained. IE: Commercial, Industry, BMS etc

 

[peterhyper]

No disrespect but maybe it’s because you’re business model of being a plumber, gas fitter and electrician...maybe to some people you would come across as a bit of a jack of all trades.

I agree that some customers don't want the hassle of getting all the trades in. But the point 5544 is making is that it's been fine for 20 years, but has noticeably declined. I can certainly relate to what 5544 says and I only do electrical work. I am also considering given up being registered, and that will happen if not next year, then in the next 2 or 3 years at most.

I don't even bother to quote for rewires anymore due to the wasted hours quoting, when often the customer has a screwfix or toolstation book handy and wants to buy all the parts, and 'only wants a quote for the labour' (often their expression like it shouldn't cost much for the labour). Too many people trying to undercut one another (and often cutting corners in the process), and I would rather talk to a Jehovah Witness at my door than get into that nonsense.

 

[Dave OCD]

I wouldn't go that far !

 

[Vortigern]

When you say "allowed" I hazard that you mean is it lawful? Bear in mind there is no legal requirement to be CPS registered. If you are doing any electrical work that is not notifiable then it is perfectly legal and "allowed" Also given that you would meet the requirement for electrical work undertaken to be done by a skilled person, I would think you are on very safe ground. You clearly have the "Education and experience" that denotes the elements of a skilled person. So in your position given that electrical work does not make much business sense in your model as you present it, it sounds like an eminently sensible decision.

 

[Kidsolo]

I have worked out that 85% of my work is not electrical any more

Maybe it is time to reassess the prices you charge for electrical services...… or specialize in only "one" trade

 

[peterhyper]

Maybe it is time to reassess the prices you charge for electrical services...… or specialize in only "one" trade

It appears 5544 is not going to bother registering with a body due to the cost/hassle and being undercut and concentrate more on his other trade, so I guess like many of us it gets to the point that lowering your prices isn't the answer as with all the overheads it just isn't worth it.

I don't feel domestic sparks are as generally valued as much by customers as plumbers, heating engineers, plasterers or carpenters. For instance most plasterers in my area usually charge more for a half a day's work than I charge for a full day's work (with varying degrees of workmanship - mainly skimming).

 

[Midwest]

It appears 5544 is not going to bother registering with a body due to the cost/hassle and being undercut and concentrate more on his other trade, so I guess like many of us it gets to the point that lowering your prices isn't the answer as with all the overheads it just isn't worth it.

I don't feel domestic sparks are as generally valued as much by customers as plumbers, heating engineers, plasterers or carpenters. For instance most plasterers in my area usually charge more for a half a day's work than I charge for a full day's work (with varying degrees of workmanship - mainly skimming).

Tend to agree with you. Small works stuff, like putting a light, installing a couple of sockets, people expect it done for a few quid.
I installed two sockets for a guy, for about £70. He wanted to save a few quid by buying his own stuff!

Then they ask if you can do it for cash!

 

[peterhyper]

Tend to agree with you. Small works stuff, like putting a light, installing a couple of sockets, people expect it done for a few quid.
I installed two sockets for a guy, for about £70. He wanted to save a few quid by buying his own stuff!

Then they ask if you can do it for cash!

I would replace a couple of existing sockets for £70 but definitely not put 2 new ones in for £70, so your customer did well if it was the latter and still expected a cash discount!

I don't do cash discounts because they save the money and if I don't put it through the tax man I'm the one in trouble.

 

[Kidsolo]

It appears 5544 is not going to bother registering with a body due to the cost/hassle and being undercut and concentrate more on his other trade, so I guess like many of us it gets to the point that lowering your prices isn't the answer

de-registering isn't the answer, he will still have to drop his prices to compete.

I don't feel domestic sparks are as generally valued as much by customers as plumbers, heating engineers, plasterers or carpenters

you guys help create this problem by allowing unskilled and semi skilled people to do electrical work. It should be only fully qualified electricians allowed to do any type of wiring

 

[Midwest]

you guys help create this problem by allowing unskilled and semi skilled people to do electrical work. It should be only fully qualified electricians allowed to do any type of wiring

How do ‘we’ create this problem?

 

[peterhyper]

de-registering isn't the answer, he will still have to drop his prices to compete.


you guys help create this problem by allowing unskilled and semi skilled people to do electrical work. It should be only fully qualified electricians allowed to do any type of wiring

I'm not sure if you are on a wind up, but if not then it's rather silly to suggest "he will have to drop his prices." Isn't that the very issue that some short sighted people think that sparks reducing their prices is the answer to getting more work (as they say a fool can always be busy). Why should he drop his prices if he can make a better living from doing something else. I absolutely refuse to drop my prices because I'm still earning less than most other trades, and in real terms I have probably already cut my prices by not increasing them to keep up with inflation.

In answer to your second statement (again it's probably another wind up). I have never employed anyone, let alone employed unskilled/unqualified people. I see rubbish electrical work all the time, and often it's done by qualified/registered sparks. I certainly don't condone such work, but perhaps they are doing exactly as you suggest and lowering their prices to the point that is how they can make a living (as they say people get what they pay pay for).

 

[Kidsolo]

but perhaps they are doing exactly as you suggest and lowering their prices to the point that is how they can make a living

The O.P. isn't going to magicaly get work by lowering his overheads, he will need to lower his prices if he wants to compete. His solution to deregister and only do "
minor electrical work that did not need certification" sounds kind of like he is choosing to join these quote hijacking cowboys. I am not suggesting lowering prices is what i would do, just what the O.P. needs to do in his scenario.

Serioius question... you U.K guys seem to quote by the hour, is this standard? why aren't you quoting by the outlet/fitting?
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How do ‘we’ create this problem?

Like I said, You not only allow but encourage "unskilled and semi skilled people to do electrical work."

 

[Midwest]

Like I said, You not only allow but encourage "unskilled and semi skilled people to do electrical work."

No I don’t

 

[DPG]

Serioius question... you U.K guys seem to quote by the hour, is this standard? why aren't you quoting by the outlet/fitting?
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Because not every job is the same.

 

[peterhyper]

The O.P. isn't going to magicaly get work by lowering his overheads, he will need to lower his prices if he wants to compete. His solution to deregister and only do "
minor electrical work that did not need certification" sounds kind of like he is choosing to join these quote hijacking cowboys. I am not suggesting lowering prices is what i would do, just what the O.P. needs to do in his scenario.

Serioius question... you U.K guys seem to quote by the hour, is this standard? why aren't you quoting by the outlet/fitting?
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Like I said, You not only allow but encourage "unskilled and semi skilled people to do electrical work."

Not being registered doesn't make somone a cowboy. Most of my work doesn't even require me to be registered.

I charge by the hour for jobs such as replacing light fittings and fault finding, but most jobs I give an actual quote for. If for instance someone asks for extra sockets, I don't charge by the point because there are many factors such as where the power is comng from for each new socket and then I take into account moving furniture, lifting carpets/underlay and floorboards. Plus is it a brick wall or a nice easy plasterboard wall where the new sockets are going etc.

 

[5544]

Many thanks for all the responses. I spoke to Elecsa today. Have not renewed. Very sad about it since i have done electrical work for 30yrs, but as previously stated, any Tom Dick or Harry is happy to shove some wire in a socket, and as long as it works no one cares. Not many people really want to play around with gas. Thanks for all the support.

 

[davesparks]

Serioius question... you U.K guys seem to quote by the hour, is this standard? why aren't you quoting by the outlet/fitting?

Dayworks are charged per hour or per day.
Big jobs like new builds would normally be priced per point.
Small jobs, alterations, adding an extra socket etc would normally be priced on a job by job basis.

 

[peterhyper]

Many thanks for all the responses. I spoke to Elecsa today. Have not renewed. Very sad about it since i have done electrical work for 30yrs, but as previously stated, any Tom Dick or Harry is happy to shove some wire in a socket, and as long as it works no one cares. Not many people really want to play around with gas. Thanks for all the support.

I agree that most people just want to pay the cheapest person to do their electrics because as long as it works why should they pay more (from their perspective). I will do almost any job on my house with the absolute of exception of touching gas.

Isn't it disappointing that around 15 years ago they introduced Part Pee to stop the cowboys, and its been a complete waste of time.

At least you have the gas trade to keep you busy, and from my experience that certainly pays better than doing domestic electrical work.

 

[Midwest]

I agree that most people just want to pay the cheapest person to do their electrics because as long as it works why should they pay more (from their perspective). I will do almost any job on my house with the absolute of exception of touching gas.

Isn't it disappointing that around 15 years ago they introduced Part Pee to stop the cowboys, and its been a complete waste of time.

At least you have the gas trade to keep you busy, and from my experience that certainly pays better than doing domestic electrical work.

It is a conundrum that people accept that gas shouldn’t be messed around with, but think electrics are fair game?

 

[Andy78]

It is a conundrum that people accept that gas shouldn’t be messed around with, but think electrics are fair game?

I think it stems from gas being regulated from ages ago and it being visibly very dangerous when things go wrong.

AFAIK when domestic gas distribution started out in this country it was done by private companies with no regulation and whole terraces of Victorian houses tended to blow up with alarming frequency, so the whole game was regulated. People have long understood they can't mess about with it whereas electrics has been included in DIY books since forever. I even once had a B&Q diy book given to me about 14 years ago that had full instructions on how to fully wire your house.

When people watch the news about gas explosions, they see gas explosions dramatically sending buildings flying apart. People like drama and easily understood causes. When people watch the news about electrically ignited fires the story is about a fire with a footnote it was started by an electrical fault. They can't always easily relate to how an electrical fault can become a thermal hazard though.

 

[peterhyper]

It is a conundrum that people accept that gas shouldn’t be messed around with, but think electrics are fair game?

I completely agree with you, but clearly too many people see electrics as easy to do, and don't appreciate the potential danger. I am clueless to the statistics, but I would guess about 99% of those people without sufficient knowledge who play with electrics wouldn't risk touching gas.

 

[mattg4321]

Where are you guys all based?

Maybe I'm too cheap or born lucky or whatever but I've had constant work for over 10 years now. Had I think 2 or 3 days of scratching around at the start of this year but otherwise been regularly turning work down as I'm too busy.

I'm in Sussex.

 

[Kidsolo]

Dayworks are charged per hour or per day.

This is fine if you just want to plod along and survive, but you will never get ahead on hourly rate. If you are a half decent electrician you should be resonably fast to complete a job. Quoting per outlet will allow you to make more money if you knock the job over quick, your costs are always covered and the client is more accepting of the quote because they know exactly what they are up for. Your quote also stands out from the rest of the other guys.

 

[peterhyper]

This is fine if you just want to plod along and survive, but you will never get ahead on hourly rate. If you are a half decent electrician you should be resonably fast to complete a job. Quoting per outlet will allow you to make more money if you knock the job over quick, your costs are always covered and the client is more accepting of the quote because they know exactly what they are up for. Your quote also stands out from the rest of the other guys.

When someone calls me with a fault which could take me 10 minutes or over 10 hours to find and fix, how many much should I quote them?

 

[Kidsolo]

how many much should I quote them?

You quote them what is fair and reasonable for the job.... If you lose out on this job you will get it back on the next job.
All I read on here is guys saying that they are getting under cut on quotes and adding up every penny that the job will cost. quote what is fair and reasonable to the client and you will have so much work you will be knocking it back.

All you guys that are giving me negative feedback, prove me wrong. Show me how you make bank on hourly rate

 

[peterhyper]

You quote them what is fair and reasonable for the job.... If you lose out on this job you will get it back on the next job.
All I read on here is guys saying that they are getting under cut on quotes and adding up every penny that the job will cost. quote what is fair and reasonable to the client and you will have so much work you will be knocking it back.

All you guys that are giving me negative feedback, prove me wrong. Show me how you make bank on hourly rate

I'm hoping to learn from you. I'm based inside the M25 near Feltham, so how much should I quote the customer who tells me their ring circuit keeps tripping?

 

[Kidsolo]

so how much should I quote the customer who tells me their ring circuit keeps tripping?

faulty finding ISN'T domestic wiring.... I hope you just learnt from me, my friend

 

[westward10]

faulty finding ISN'T domestic wiring.... I hope you just learnt from me, my friend

@Kidsolo I am not sure where you are heading with all this but you are verging on trolling. Unless you can give positive posts then do not post.

 

[davesparks]

This is fine if you just want to plod along and survive, but you will never get ahead on hourly rate. If you are a half decent electrician you should be resonably fast to complete a job. Quoting per outlet will allow you to make more money if you knock the job over quick, your costs are always covered and the client is more accepting of the quote because they know exactly what they are up for. Your quote also stands out from the rest of the other guys.

Nonsense, quoting per outlet just does not work for every job.
As I said earlier it works well for new builds and big jobs, but quiting per outlet for small jobs, alterations and additions just doesn't work because every job is different.
Other jobs can only realistically be done on an hourly rate if you want to be fair to the customer.
Fault finding and urgent repairs are best done on an hourly rate.
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faulty finding ISN'T domestic wiring.... I hope you just learnt from me, my friend

Fault finding in a domestic installation is domestic work.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Hourly is safer and leaves less room for error , if you find a problem and the job takes longer then the customer will pay for the time...

I personally feel much more comfortable working by the hour

 

[Dave OCD]

Mostly I'll quote for a job unless it's very difficult to gauge how long it'll take or fault finding.
The only downside with working on an hourly rate in my view is that I feel under pressure to deliver good value for money and prove integrity so probably feel under more strain.