Register with Sparksafe to bid on Council work in Northern Ireland

[trev]

No, nothing to do with an American boy band.
It appears that there's a new scam surfaced in Northern Ireland, in order to bid on local authority contracts you have to be registered with Sparksafe.
I'm waiting for a guy to respond to some questions I've asked him re minimum qualification levels, costs, benefits to members etc etc. More info as and when I get it but I wonder how long it will be before it's imported to the mainland.

 

[rapparee]

Re: New kids on the block

I mentioned this over a year ago on here. As far as i am aware you have to be a "real" spark to be sparksafe. The ett-ni are pushing it

 

[trev]

Re: New kids on the block

Sorry mate, must have missed that one

 

[trev]

Re: New kids on the block

Just took a look, the website suggests a 3 tier "licence" Qualified electrician, Restricted electrical worker and Apprentice.
SSDD?
It's already here, £160 for a 3 year licence to practice.
Good Grief!!!!!

 

[Leesparkykent]

Re: New kids on the block

Would it be a bad thing if it was mandatory to join to practise and and the criteria of qualifications to join were at the same level as a jib electrician/approved electrician? I personally think it would be a good thing.

 

[Plonker 3]

Re: New kids on the block

Would it be a bad thing if it was mandatory to join to practise and and the criteria of qualifications to join were at the same level as a jib electrician/approved electrician? I personally think it would be a good thing.

I dont think anyone would object, as long as the scheme is policed correctly and not just used as another tax on electricians.

 

[trev]

Re: New kids on the block

If it was mandatory, if it was set at the same entry level as the JIB, if it did not recognise the Electrical Trainee, if it had teeth and the resources and ability to use them then I'd take it a little more seriously. At the minute though it's nothing more than yet another pseudo official organisation trying to get their grubby hands in our pockets.

 

[shanky887614]

Re: New kids on the block

If it was mandatory, if it was set at the same entry level as the JIB, if it did not recognise the Electrical Trainee, if it had teeth and the resources and ability to use them then I'd take it a little more seriously. At the minute though it's nothing more than yet another pseudo official organisation trying to get their grubby hands in our pockets.

Just took a look, the website suggests a 3 tier "licence" Qualified electrician, Restricted electrical worker and Apprentice.
SSDD?
It's already here, £160 for a 3 year licence to practice.
Good Grief!!!!!

it wont change a thing laborers can be graded

Licence Types & Criteria
Three licence types are available for Electrical Workers – Licence to Practice for Qualified Electrician, Restricted Electrical Worker and Apprentice Electrician.

Public Sector Procurement Organisations and Main Contractors require fundamental information concerning the identity and composition of the electrical contractors planned workforce.

The SparkSafe system has been designed to provide online visibility of the electrical contractor’s workforce by licence type to both of these groups on a contract by contract basis. This means that client groups are able to monitor and assess the composition of the electrical contractor’s workforce and ensure that it is matched to the requirements of the contract.

Qualified Electrician

The purpose of this licence type is to indicate to a consumer that the person is experienced, skilled and up to date with electrical qualifications. This licence type is intended for workers who possess approved current and legacy electrical installation qualifications. To be eligible, applicants must have obtained

An NVQ Level 3 in Electrotechnical Services (Table 1)

or

A relevant industry approved legacy qualification. This will be applicable to those applicants who trained prior to the introduction of NVQ’s in 1999 (Table 2)

and

The current BS7671 IEE Wiring Requirements qualification [Level 3 Award in Requirements for Electrical Installations BS7671:June 2008(2011)]

Restricted Electrical Worker

The purpose of this licence type is to indicate that the person is not fully qualified or up to date with the required electrical qualifications. This licence type is aimed at a broad range of electrical workers. This includes graded labourers through to practicing electricians who are not currently up to date with a BS7671 qualification.

To be eligible for a Restricted Electrical Worker’s Licence, applicants must be able to demonstrate that they have relevant, up to date skills and experience working in the electrical industry. This licence type is aimed at a broad range of electrical workers from unqualified graded labourers through to qualified practicing electricians who do not possess a current BS7671 IEE Wiring Requirements qualification [Level 3 Award in Requirements for Electrical Installations BS7671:June 2008(2011)]

Apprentice Electrician

This licence type will demonstrates that the person is working towards becoming fully qualified by means of an industry approved framework. To be eligible, applicants must be a registered as an apprentice on an industry approved apprenticeship framework. Applicants must also be working towards achieving the NVQ Level 3. Apprentices will be issued with a standard licence for all year groups.



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[Doomed]

Re: New kids on the block

Have you not come across Exor? alot of the local authorities near us want exor accreditation before you can work for them.

 

[123]

Re: New kids on the block

No, nothing to do with an American boy band.
It appears that there's a new scam surfaced in Northern Ireland, in order to bid on local authority contracts you have to be registered with Sparksafe.
I'm waiting for a guy to respond to some questions I've asked him re minimum qualification levels, costs, benefits to members etc etc. More info as and when I get it but I wonder how long it will be before it's imported to the mainland.

To work on social housing (Housing Executive) or government or council work in Northern Ireland you either need to be a NICEIC Approved Contractor or ECA registered.

This Sparksafe thing the ETT (Electrical Training Trust) have been trying to push in for a good while, but it's not gotten off the ground at all. In principle I like the idea, but most likely it will just be another fee to pay to work and be a bundle of garbage.

 

[Risteard]

Re: New kids on the block

I hold a SparkSafe Qualified Electrician licence. There is a fee for the three-year validity on the licence (which is operated through a computer system and does not involve a physical card). Main contractors also need to have a Contractors' licence. Then subcontractors/employees accept a connection to the contractor through the system, showing the make-up of the workforce for the client.

It is being piloted on certain public sector contracts, so it isn't quite correct to say that it hasn't got off the ground. The contracts tendered for last year have only started to become "live", so it is becoming a requirement moreso each passing day.

 

[Admin]

Changed the thread title to something more descriptive

 

[trev]

Why? They are a new scam and as such I thought it was appropriate. It wasn't abusive or offensive

 

[Risteard]

Why? They are a new scam and as such I thought it was appropriate. It wasn't abusive or offensive

It is not a body concerned with certification or inspection. It is an attempt to ensure that non-qualified people are not permitted to work on public sector contracts, with the intention that this will spread beyond the public sector. It has a stated aim of attempting to drive up the pay of Electricians (which has typically been extremely low here).

I am also not sure that it is correct to state that it is required for local council work. Certain public sector bodies are operating the scheme already (which will prohibit non-SparkSafe licenced people from working on these contracts) but I am not aware of any of the local councils being involved (but am open to correction).

 

[trev]

It is not a body concerned with certification or inspection. It is an attempt to ensure that non-qualified people are not permitted to work on public sector contracts, with the intention that this will spread beyond the public sector. It has a stated aim of attempting to drive up the pay of Electricians (which has typically been extremely low here).

I am also not sure that it is correct to state that it is required for local council work. Certain public sector bodies are operating the scheme already (which will prohibit non-SparkSafe licenced people from working on these contracts) but I am not aware of any of the local councils being involved (but am open to correction).

They are couching it as a licence to practice. However, it has no official recognition from any licence issuing body. It has very little recognition within the trade.
It is therefore, imho, a money raking scam from our pockets to theirs.
I have been criticised for taking this stance on another forum but when I asked the critics some very pertinent questions they went very quiet.
This thing stinks and benefits no one except the operators of the scam.
PS, I care not one single jot whether my use of the word "scam" is edited out, I know the use of the word is frowned upon in some quarters.

 

[123]

Re: New kids on the block

I hold a SparkSafe Qualified Electrician licence. There is a fee for the three-year validity on the licence (which is operated through a computer system and does not involve a physical card). Main contractors also need to have a Contractors' licence. Then subcontractors/employees accept a connection to the contractor through the system, showing the make-up of the workforce for the client.

It is being piloted on certain public sector contracts, so it isn't quite correct to say that it hasn't got off the ground. The contracts tendered for last year have only started to become "live", so it is becoming a requirement moreso each passing day.

In what areas and contracts?

Housing Exec throughout NI hasn't changed on NICEIC being needed to the best of my knowledge?

 

[Risteard]

Re: New kids on the block

In what areas and contracts?

Housing Exec throughout NI hasn't changed on NICEIC being needed to the best of my knowledge?

This is precisely my point. SparkSafe has nothing to do with NICEIC or any other similar body. It is about licencing of individual workers. NIHE as an example may require NICEIC certificates, but may further require from the contractor that their entire workforce including subcontractors are licenced under the SparkSafe initiative. They will stipulate what percentage are to be Qualified Electricians, Restricted Electrical Workers and Apprentice Electricians. Furthermore they can view the makeup of the workforce through the system to ensure compliance.

None of this has anything to do with NICEIC, ECA or similar bodies.

 

[123]

Re: New kids on the block

This is precisely my point. SparkSafe has nothing to do with NICEIC or any other similar body. It is about licencing of individual workers. NIHE as an example may require NICEIC certificates, but may further require from the contractor that their entire workforce including subcontractors are licenced under the SparkSafe initiative. They will stipulate what percentage are to be Qualified Electricians, Restricted Electrical Workers and Apprentice Electricians. Furthermore they can view the makeup of the workforce through the system to ensure compliance.

None of this has anything to do with NICEIC, ECA or similar bodies.

So a company needs to be NICEIC to do Housing Exec work. Company and anyone working for them also need to be Sparksafe.

SCAM!!!!!!!!

 

[123]

Re: New kids on the block

And having looked at the requirements - its just a blooming JIB card rebadged and at a much much heftier rate!

 

[Risteard]

Re: New kids on the block

And having looked at the requirements - its just a blooming JIB card rebadged and at a much much heftier rate!

When applying your entire work history, as well as qualifications and JIB card have to be submitted. I know that the company I served my time with were contacted by SparkSafe to verify details.

Many here (and you are of course entitled to disagree) view it as a serious attempt to prevent unqualified people working, and I certainly welcome that.

 

[trev]

Do they have any teeth? I'd guess not.
Any scheme of individual competence has to have them, and the willingness and the wherewithall to use them.

 

[Risteard]

Do they have any teeth? I'd guess not.
Any scheme of individual competence has to have them, and the willingness and the wherewithall to use them.

Of course. Without it you will be excluded from working on many public sector contracts.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Of course. Without it you will be excluded from working on many public sector contracts.

Looks like a good thing to me. looking out for the trade with regards to minimum qualifications etc, without it you won't get any public sector work and the only contractors that will be in fear of it are the ones who wouldn't meet the criteria for joining.

 

[123]

Of course. Without it you will be excluded from working on many public sector contracts.

What locations? Belfast and Country Antrim . Is this Housing Exec work, council work or government work?

If its so important why don't they just ask for JIB cards. A systems that's long been established as well.

I think there was a court case here involving one big contractor (Red Sky perhaps?) where the judge ruled that to be a fully qualified spark they should have the 2391. But that could all be Chinese whispers!

 

[123]

Looks like a good thing to me. looking out for the trade with regards to minimum qualifications etc, without it you won't get any public sector work and the only contractors that will be in fear of it are the ones who wouldn't meet the criteria for joining.

Shouldn't the Part P scams in England do that already for your hefty fee? Why would you need to have Part P scam and this as well?

I don't see anything about site visits on this one, it's a hefty admin fee for a computer based system...does changing a renewal date really cost £40, and wtf are you paying for in the £120? At least with the JIB I can have a nice gold plastic card, not even a blooming card with this

 

[Leesparkykent]

Shouldn't the Part P scams in England do that already for your hefty fee? Why would you need to have Part P scam and this as well?

I don't see anything about site visits on this one, it's a hefty admin fee for a computer based system...does changing a renewal date really cost £40, and wtf are you paying for in the £120? At least with the JIB I can have a nice gold plastic card, not even a blooming card with this

But for a principal contractor it would pay for itself when vetting contractors that have tendered.
And save the contractor who is tendering time/money as you could be vetted against it and employees also and in the long run would pay for itself not having to go through the same thing every time with different principal contractors as it's all in one place.

 

[123]

Totally lost me Lee, even with the edit.

I need to pay £160/3 years for what? And also need to pay NIC another £468/year as this licence is merely a standalone scam add on?

 

[Risteard]

What locations? Belfast and Country Antrim . Is this Housing Exec work, council work or government work?

I don't know off hand precisely which bodies are piloting it, although I don't believe that it is restricted to Belfast. I know that the Housing Executive were one of the bodies which were particularly interested in SparkSafe, but I believe Education Boards and perhaps Health Boards may also have been.

If its so important why don't they just ask for JIB cards. A systems that's long been established as well.

I asked that question of Derek Thompson at the time that SparkSafe was being proposed. My understanding is that the JIB did not feel that it could be used as a de facto licence (although your JIB grading etc. is considered in the application process). As you will know all ETT-run Apprenticeships here are through the JIB Apprentice Training Scheme.

I think there was a court case here involving one big contractor (Red Sky perhaps?) where the judge ruled that to be a fully qualified spark they should have the 2391. But that could all be Chinese whispers!

No, the judge complained that there was no definition of a Qualified Electrician - and that he felt that there should be an accepted standard, and this was a major factor behind the development of SparkSafe. I don't believe that the case had anything to do with Red Sky although I may be mistaken. Red Sky were infamous for fraudulently claiming millions from Housing Executive maintenance contracts - pretending that they had done work which had not been done (an example being that they claimed for replacing more doors in a house than even existed).

 

[BLBelfast]

Interesting. I'm an Approved JIB electrician and have been in Australia for a couple of years. When I return to Belfast is it likely companies will be asking for this endorsement, which I will have to pay for, or is it not that wide spread yet. Also the work references I will have will not be recent so how would that stand with this sparksafe??

 

[amckay]

Does jib exist in Ireland? If not, I suppose that sparksafe would be just like the jib? Bit steep tho at £160 for three years. However it could be OK if (and that's a big if) you could have a sparksafe card and not be required to be niceic etc...
I agree with trev that they're scams, but it has crossed my mind that they could serve a place in the industry. With all the Electrical Trainee courses that more and more people seem to be doing, organisations like jib should do more to protect proper sparks from loosing out on work to them.
I don't blame Electrical Trainee's, I blame a lack of knowledge on what it takes to be a spark, they just want a career change but don't know where to find the correct info on the internet. This is where the likes of the jib should do more.

 

[Risteard]

Does jib exist in Ireland?

Yes. It exists in the north as the same JIB as in England, with the SJIB being in Scotland. It is not relevant in the south of Ireland though. However even in the north of Ireland there are very few JIB companies, although everyone does a JIB Apprenticeship.

If not, I suppose that sparksafe would be just like the jib?

No, it's not the same. It is intended to operate as a licence for Electricians which the JIB is not.

However it could be OK if (and that's a big if) you could have a sparksafe card and not be required to be niceic etc...

There is no SparkSafe card. It is an online system. This has nothing to do with the NICEIC. The client may require an NICEIC contractor - this has nothing to do with the workforce being individually licenced.