Solar panels - Good or bad idea?

[jason121]

4KW £6200.00 Suntech panels Steca inverter with 7years

 

[moggy1968]

That does seem steep FB, well above what we charge for decent kit.

I do think it's time we stopped trying to sell PV as an investment. It's a way of inflation proofing your fuel bills and producing electricity in a responsible way. No other home improvement is seen as an investment (although it may ultimately improve the value of your home) so why should PV be any different. IT should be viewed as something that enhances your enjoyment of your home, if you make a few quid then great, but that shouldn't be the greatest motivation.

Thats why I support a more generous FiT with a shorter payback time. The you are getting a subsidised installation to generate electricity, rather than making money out of it.

 

[solarsavings]

Prices in this part of East Anglia are much lower in yours FB. Perhaps it's the Cambridge effect?

 

[PengEF]

Thanks for the lightwave RF tip moggy, I have seen them before and they are part of the frustration. They do allow control and are where I think this tech needs to be applied but they only do half of what is needed i.e. control. There is no monitoring of energy usage so you can see if something needs a control plan.

Also your example of a whole house rewire is exactly what I mean about the expense. In this day and age we should be able to come up with a 21st century solution where the control and monitoring is in each plug socket, switch and light fitting. Hell all the tech exists the LightwaveRF stuff proves it as well as other products like those from plugwise and homeplugs. Just nobody has put it all together yet or if they have the leccy companies have probably paid them all to P***** ***f and not tell us all. Just think how much work there would be if it was affordable to replace wall sockets with something that was easy to use, plug and play and gave the home owner/business total visibility and control of their electrical devices? Ah well maybe in 10 years time when leccy costs a pound a kWh it might happen *sigh*

 

[FB.]

I do think it's time we stopped trying to sell PV as an investment. It's a way of inflation proofing your fuel bills and producing electricity in a responsible way.

Yes, but a margin of safety needs to be in place to ensure that it's not a loss-maker for those who put their hard-earned savings into it.

 

[FB.]

4KW £6200.00 Suntech panels Steca inverter with 7years

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have space for 4kWp, while 3kWp (medium) and 2kWp (small) systems only seem to knock a few hundred quid off, with a large increase in payback time.
I already have 3.75kWp, while a 3.25kWp second array would have been the ideal size, but had such a wafer-thin margin of safety for me taking on the risk compared to simply playing safe and putting the money in an ISA, where at least I could cash-out at any time.

 

[FB.]

Prices in this part of East Anglia are much lower in yours FB. Perhaps it's the Cambridge effect?

Yes, it could be the effect of sky-high property prices and rents near to Cambridge. Property prices here have largely ignored the recession and are among the most expensive in the country. Nationwide second-quarter figures report average UK house price as £165k, London average £344k and Cambridge average at £329k.

 

[FB.]

That does seem steep FB, well above what we charge for decent kit.

I find it frustrating that not many companies offer a guide price, while others won't mention the inverters used, while others have a lot of hidden extras or claim that adverts have misprints. Yet others I must register an interest using form on their website so that they can then pester me for weeks or months afterwards.
It's feeling more and more like the double-glazing salesmen, where prices are marked-up to see if the customer will buy and then bartered down (by phone and not in writing) every few days if the customer rejects an offer.

 

[moggy1968]

Yes, but a margin of safety needs to be in place to ensure that it's not a loss-maker for those who put their hard-earned savings into it.

do you get that with a conservatory or an extension?

Not the same I know, but really, how much margin do you need! Your already more than doubling the cost of your system in your returns.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, it could be the effect of sky-high property prices and rents near to Cambridge. Property prices here have largely ignored the recession and are among the most expensive in the country. Nationwide second-quarter figures report average UK house price as £165k, London average £344k and Cambridge average at £329k.

shame I sold my flat in cambridge 14 years ago then:cry_smile:

 

[FB.]

do you get that with a conservatory or an extension?

Not the same I know, but really, how much margin do you need! Your already more than doubling the cost of your system in your returns.

Doubling my money in 20yrs is only about 3.5% annual average, which is roughly equal to long-term inflation (as per the 3.5% I mentioned in an earlier post). Simply matching long-term inflation isn't "growth"; it's simply preservation of buying power.
I could buy an inflation-linked bond and probably get an equal annual average return without the unknowns associated with solar such as component lifespan or other variables (such as precise levels of RPI inflation or energy price inflation) which could result in a very different rate of return than originally projected.
As we've both agreed before: a long payback period creates a wider range of possible outcomes and a greater amount of uncertainty.

 

[Gavin A]

I find it frustrating that not many companies offer a guide price, while others won't mention the inverters used, while others have a lot of hidden extras or claim that adverts have misprints. Yet others I must register an interest using form on their website so that they can then pester me for weeks or months afterwards.
It's feeling more and more like the double-glazing salesmen, where prices are marked-up to see if the customer will buy and then bartered down (by phone and not in writing) every few days if the customer rejects an offer.

I'd think that 90% of our installations have been at or below the prices on the website at the time of the installation fwiw, with any that are higher being due to legitimate additional costs such as complex scaffolding, longer distances etc.

 

[FB.]

any that are higher being due to legitimate additional costs such as complex scaffolding, longer distances etc.

Yes, there's nothing wrong with that where the vast majority (say three-quarters) of installations are relatively straightforward and will be at or below your guide price, with only a small minority (say one quarter) of installations not being straightfoward and incurring additional costs which were explained to the customer at an early stage.

A further concern I had with local companies was that I'd end up paying a deposit but not being able to agree on the detail of the system design/layout etc, resulting in me having to write-off my deposit or be forced to accept a design which I wasn't entirely happy with. In this tough period for solar installers, I can't see many wanting to easily let go of a deposit if subsequently the customer and the system designer could not reach an agreement.

 

[sedgy34]

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have space for 4kWp, while 3kWp (medium) and 2kWp (small) systems only seem to knock a few hundred quid off, with a large increase in payback time.
I already have 3.75kWp, while a 3.25kWp second array would have been the ideal size, but had such a wafer-thin margin of safety for me taking on the risk compared to simply playing safe and putting the money in an ISA, where at least I could cash-out at any time.

FB
your a long standing appreciated member to the forum, when other consumers come on here your input from customer to potential customer is vital. keep up the good work, We have had a recent customer cash in there ISA and invest in solar they didnt see the point in it as the ISA wasnt producing for them.

 

[FB.]

FB
your a long standing appreciated member to the forum, when other consumers come on here your input from customer to potential customer is vital. keep up the good work, We have had a recent customer cash in there ISA and invest in solar they didnt see the point in it as the ISA wasnt producing for them.

For an average customer, medium to large solar arrays can still make sense and is worth looking into.

Admittedly my lack of margin of safety was because I'd be on a 14.5p FiT for going into 4-10kW band. Most people would be on 16p FiT.
Since I have already cut my electricity bill almost by half, I definitely can't cut it by an equal amount again, so my potential bill savings would have been less too. Maybe half of the remaining half of my electricity bill - but I still need lights on after dark when the solar is not producing.

So with my FiT being about 10% less than <4kW installations, and my extra bill savings probably no more than 25% of electricity produced, I'm at a disadvantage to the average customer - especially given the apparently high prices charged by solar installers near Cambridge.

---------- edited to add the following -----------

I also prefer to work on assumptions of inflation at its historical average (about 3.5%) and electricity price rises at a similar level or perhaps slightly more - say 3.5-5%. These are much more conservative than many, but in our topsy-turvy world, who knows what the future will bring - therefore long-term projections can end up being for comedy value only and can be ridiculously wide of the mark. Remember in 1999 when the average stockmarket investor was expecting 15-20% annual average returns and planning retirement accordingly? Remember stocks and shares ISA's allowed to use 7-9% growth projections, which have more recently been reduced to half that in recognition of the way the world has changed.
Forecasting is difficult - and more so the longer the timeframe.

However, with governments in serious debt, we may eventually see them print their way out of debt (less offensive to print and devalue than to default), with excessive money printing resulting in a sharp drop in the value of money (i.e. dramatically rising prices). This happened in the late-1970's, with inflation well into double-digits.

On the other hand, Japan's post-1989 bubble burst has seem them with negligible inflation, and on-off mild deflation for two decades and counting.

So where do we go from here? What projections should we use? I suspect the answer goes back to moggy's suggestion of a high FiT rate for just a few years, in order to quickly reach payback and reduce the uncertainty which surrounds a long-term payback.

 

[sedgy34]

i would recommend looking at other things now ie change lights to led,immersun unit if you have an immersion heater, possibly solar thermal now as there is a fit of 17p kwh you have the roof space so go for it, also a log burner.

almost forgot the voltis unit ive fitted one at my house and its reduced to 224volts should be around a saving of 17% a year.

 

[jason121]

how many immersuns in a day do you have fit to make a good living
swithenbanks are selling them of cheap