star delta motor .....extra stop/start....415v abb

[leespeed]

whats the best and safest way to install a remote start stop system
on a star delta motor .........i can only seem to find remote stops in series and no starts
will it have to be a relay low volatge system ......
any info appreciate ....its for a church organ motor in cella organ on 3rd floor
star delta 400v supply no neutral cheers

 

[leespeed]

ok guys sorry for early post,early i know .. im thinking of using 2 relays and piggy back the push release start and push release stop
heres the drawing of the star delta motor 400v coil ....

 

[Knobhead]

First off you shouldn’t be exporting 400V control from the panel.
Just looked at the two wire drawing and it’s downright dangerous.

 

[malcoa]

Tony is right, you would need to create in a low voltage control circuit i.e 24V and control via relays, its a bit of faffing about.

 

[malcoa]

Really?????????? i thought you said

whats the best and safest way to install a remote start stop system
on a star delta motor .........i can only seem to find remote stops in series and no starts
will it have to be a relay low volatge system ......
any info appreciate ....its for a church organ motor in cella organ on 3rd floor
star delta 400v supply no neutral cheers

and i answered.....
you would need to create in a low voltage control circuit i.e 24V and control via relays

lol, it seems you know exactly what your doing...........

 

[Knobhead]

Leave him to it, it will be one less church to burn down.

 

[chilliwilly]

What's wrong with using a 3 core to a remote push station with 400 volts?

 

[Knobhead]

I think 400V may give a clue.

 

[snowhead]

I think 400V may give a clue.

Add Church mice as another clue, wouldn't want them being fried at 400v,,240v is bad enough.

 

[snowhead]

will it have to be a relay low volatge system ......
any info appreciate . no neutral cheers

400v to 24v Transformer, no neutral required.

 

[leespeed]

right people im back (have we all calmed down ) touchy *******s ................
i mentioned the relays as an alternative as i wasnt willing to run a 400v start stop system in
as at the minute the old system ive replaced is obsolete...so sorry if i upset any of you
anks to anyone with constructive answers cheers (as for burning churches down are u a satanist tut tut)
and th

 

[leespeed]

malcoa thanks for replying the imbosile was to tony not you m8

im thinking of using a 400/24v transformer, then relays to parrallel up the start and stop
il post pics of what was in and what ive replaced later

 

[netblindpaul]

If you are going to use relays, if the equipment requires an emergency stop, then, please remember that the whole system will be classed as a safety related part of a control system, or, whatever they call it these days, so you will have to comply with all relevant safety requirements.

 

[leespeed]

oh and snow head thanks for replying

 

[snowhead]

then relays to parrallel up the start and stop
I'll post pics of what was in and what I've replaced later

Starts in parrallel.
Stops in series.

 

[chilliwilly]

I think 400V may give a clue.

A clue to what exactly? 12v 24v 50v 110v 230/240v 400v.

400v coil, 400v switching either from EM relays, SS relays, or switch contacts mounted behind a push. Why complicate with PELV tranny's and relays and the like?

 

[chilliwilly]

Add Church mice as another clue, wouldn't want them being fried at 400v,,240v is bad enough.

If there's a risk of damage from deterimental influence (flora and or fauna) then consideration should be given to a higher degree of protection of the circuit. ie pyro, armoured, conduit. Standard practice in the churches I've worked in.

 

[netblindpaul]

Statute law precludes 400V a.c. control at this point in time.
If you don't know this, leave it to those who do.

 

[leespeed]

yes i know the stops are in series i called tech at ABB they said they only do a remote stop as in the drawing that tony pointed out !!! they dont do a remote stop start system so relays it is thanks for the heads up guys ill keep you posted when the bonfire is lol

 

[Knobhead]

If you are going to use relays, if the equipment requires an emergency stop, then, please remember that the whole system will be classed as a safety related part of a control system, or, whatever they call it these days, so you will have to comply with all relevant safety requirements.

This I would have to see. A church organ with an emergency stop!

Having said that, some of the organist's need a E-Stop to prevent the music being ruined.

 

[chilliwilly]

QUOTE=netblindpaul;747950]Statute law precludes 400V a.c. control at this point in time.
If you don't know this, leave it to those who do.[/QUOTE]

Statute law eh, I thought all laws were statutory?

With me being a roofer I wouldn't know much about that but I occasionally do a bit of wiring for my aunt and my mum, infact only last week I put my mum a light buld in her stairs landing. And for my aunt I put a plug on her battery charger for her vibrator. So I think that makes me an electrician qualified enough to come on this forum don't you? Thinking this I managed to carry out the following jobs...

Yesterday I replaced a push station on a pillar hoist (Pelloby) that had 415v across the start button on the wand to control the 415 v coils. And replaced an Ellison resistance starter thingy on a calendar that had 600v fed to it from a slip ring motor thing.

This morning I wired up 6 x TP&N 400v isolators/dissconnectors that switch the supply to washing machines for a laundry install I'm carrying out.

In my work shop I'm building a control panel for a conveyor system that has "D" connector thingammi bobs that in turn have 12v-400v on various cores within the same cable. That in turn will supply further push stations for remote control, and condition stop indicator panel stations, the 12 v is for interfacing an old omron plc (what ever one of those is) that controls an auger feeder and sol valves.

And my work shop has crompton dol starters for my roller shutter doors which have 400/415v motors, and I used them to open and close this morning.

And I frequently work on them refigeration thingy systems that have star/delta units for for them compressor things with no neutrals or trannys supplying 110v to the coils and start buttons, some do have auto transformers with variable tappings though. Mind you though they have 400/415v fed to them with a small pilot motor fed directly from a button with 415v across the contacts.

Oh deary me, it looks like I have been breaking the law, and the niccy are coming out to see it on Friday for one of my initial inspections. I hope they don't mind me being a roofer who changed to be an electrician?

Oh no, what am I going to do?

I know, I'll shut shop all together for good and leave it to those who know there stuff. But that means my colleagues who are lift engineers will have to shut down all the goods lifts they work on, and my mate who has a garage won't be able to use his hydraulic lift to work underneath his customers cars.

Sir, can you tell me what will happen to me now? I can't face doing any hard time in jail, and all my money is tide up in assetts that also have third party investers, so paying a fine will be very difficult. I hope the judge knows his stuff and takes this into account that I'm a roofer and don't know any better like I would if I was a proper electrician like you.

Maybe I'll just go on one of those 1 week courses and become an electrician and live happily ever after.

 

[leespeed]

good rant chilly...lol right lets get something straight here....the star delta motor is only controlling a 5.5kw motor in the
cellar which is only a blower ...........the original install had a remote stop start at the organ on the wall, to remote start and
stop the motor ,that is why i was asking for any info to install a remote circuit prefferably 24v just for the remote start and stop .............hope this clears things up

 

[Darkwood]

Lets clear this up.... if the control circuit is within the same housing as the control gear then its often found that 400v is used as the control e.g. DOL starters with the buttons mounted on the lid, when operations are remote from the control gear then careful consideration has to be taken into account with regards the environmental influences, rating of control gear and where such systems are installed in a industrial environment then a reduced voltage control system should be installed. Im forever changing smashed, failed, abused control stations and buttons and when they do get damaged they usually try to carry on using them until they stop functioning. IP ratings often fail over time too so if the control point is suseptable to ingress whether it be liquid or solid then overall a SELV control system should be implemented. , i still come across 400v remote control on old systems that i would never consider safe to implement nowadays.

If exporting 400v control its often the case that the extra measures taken to ensure its durabilty outway the smaller costs of reducing the voltage in the first place, i rarely see an occasion where i would export 400v controls by choice but thats not to say your not allowed but in our industry of H&S, risk assessment and regulations it is good practice to export controls at safer reduced voltages.

There might not be a direct clause ruling it out but putting other regulations into practice and meeting both the health and safety and risk assessment requirements leaves little room for justifying its use in new control systems or even alterations to existing.

 

[chilliwilly]

Yes I knew what you wanted, I just couldn't see what the big issue was with the OPs comments.

Hope you get it sorted without thinking about it too much, use whatever you feel safe with.

 

[chilliwilly]

I know what you mean my learned friend, but two or more risk assessments are never identicle, and I can see why you think it more desirable to use elv rather than lv for controls. But until the EAWR, IET, and BS make it absolute and the niccy and the likes start snagging the use of 400v controls on local and remotes old and new. I will stick to my guns regarding circuit design and cable selection suitable for the respective environment, as always.

The laundry that I'm currently installing, will only have 5 core flexes fed from isolators mounted on steel trunking in turn fed by singles from a dist board, then run through the trunking, then from stuffing glands out to the machines, with no anaconda. And the (ECV) sol valve will be simply a latching e stop switching a 230/240v to the coil.

I would just like offer the following case scenario regarding control voltages.

If you have say a tp&n mcb or switch fuse from a switch cubicle supplying a feeder to a motor, via a control then a local isolator to isolate the motor to allow for switching off for safety to enable maintenance. You will always have 400v + within any enclosure that can be operated by persons, either from buttons, switches, or levers. So you will never get away from the fact there will be always 400v + present within circuits supplying, heating, electromotive, or lighting. Desite having the control on ELV, there wil always be the need to switch 400v + at some point within that circuit. Even on tri rated commercial deep fat electric fryer or a chargrill, the thermostats are 400v +, with no elv contactor switched by buttons.

The trouble that I find is when you introduce a ELV control to an LV thats been tried and tested for years, the transformers can burn out adding to additional downtime already associated with coils and the like burning out. Or a surge resulting in a brown out will cause the secondary voltage to drop sufficiently to release the 24v coil. Probably causing you to look for wiring faults that don't exist.

 

[Darkwood]

Chilly you trying to snag the use of 24v with senerio's that don't really happen nowadays.... i often use 24v dc power supplies that are S/C protected and overcurrent protected and simply shut down until fault cleared they actually aid in the detection and have options for signalling a fault is present, i wasn't having a dig at you personally or your set-up im just saying as it is.. im more industrial controls and have to catagorise the safety level of my control systems and 9/10 times this will be with the use of a safety relay, and also most measuring devices senses etc also are compatable with 24v dc as routine although other voltages exist.

On a tangent where you based as cleckhuddersfax is a very local name here and i suspect you dont live far from me?

 

[chilliwilly]

I live near Leeds, and I know you wasn't having a dig. Just adding your tuppence'a'penny as we all do.

I wasn't trying to snag the use of elv and rlv, I was just pointing out that until its made absolute that 400v control is unsafe. I will stick to my guns as I know that there is no way you will escape the fact that 400v+ will have to be manually switched at some point, either locally or remotely. That being the case I will still continue to use it on new and old systems for controls for basic stopping and starting.

In the case of most industrial systems that I work on, they do not incorporate the use of PLCs and other SS & EM devices such as counters and timers. They are more the traditional well engineered MTE, Crabtree, Ellison, and the like for cranes, conveyors, extraction, and HVAC. So as you can imagine with that being the case I will always maintain the existing standard of 400v+ controls that would be too expensive and uncompetetive to modernise. Somebody else could simply walk in after me and undercut my price of modernisation by sticking with 400v+ controls.

Whenever I do work on more complex control with PLCs and the like, then obviously I have to go with what ever control voltage they have implemented.

Anyway my learned friend all the best and keep up the good work.

 

[Knobhead]

I just hope you never get near a medium sized control system. With you’re attitude it will be a disaster.
I do hope you realise you included crane control in you’re list.
Safety, what’s that got to do with anything? It works, doesn’t it?

 

[chilliwilly]

Perhaps you would like to explain your point and your reason for your egrigrious comment?

 

[chilliwilly]

And what on earth makes you think that I have only worked on a control system for only a 1/2 horse motor?