Discuss Stop the machine! I want to get off. in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Lucien Nunes

-
Mentor
Esteemed
Arms
Reaction score
13,478
We have this Swiss-made Dixi horizontal borer from 1957, very nice machine still with its original DC variable voltage drive. In those days there were no VFDs, variable speed machine drives all used DC motors or Schrage AC motors, with the best DC units capable of better performance than VFDs at low speeds; this one goes all the way down to 70 rpm at 100% torque. In 1957 there were really two options for producing the variable voltage to feed the machine spindle motor itself: A motor generator set that runs at constant speed with variable excitation on the generator (the Ward-Leonard system) or a thyratron (gas-filled valve) controlled rectifier bridge. Our borer has a Ward-Leonard drive, with a 2900 rpm converter set sitting next to it with a 3-phase motor, DC generator, exciter generator and a cross-field servo-amplifier machine all on one shaft. This is in turn under the control of a magnetic transductor amplifier which gives closed-loop speed control.

dixi60.jpg DC drive motor.jpg MG set labelled.jpg

All of this has been working pretty reliably for 65 years but yesterday it wouldn't stop working when told to. The spindle motor would stop and start but when the machinist went to stop the converter set, as soon as he took his finger off the button it fired back up. The E-stop button isn't supposed to stop the converter: it stops the spindle and the hydraulic pump, but leaves the converter running because that is needed to dynamically brake the spindle. It only stopped when he turned off the isolator.

Controls.jpg

The 3-phase motor of the Ward-Leonard converter has a star-delta starter within the panel which is more or less conventional, just with a few interconnections to tie it into the machine controls, e.g. an auxiliary proving contact on the delta contactor enables the DC spindle controls once up to speed, and the converter overload relay trips the spindle drive first, which then trips the converter off. I expected there would be a short somewhere in the control interlocking but the reason was simple and obvious once the panel was opened: the line contactor was jamming closed mechanically. With a finger on the converter stop button the holding circuit was broken, releasing the delta contactor and de-energising the motor. But when the button was released the circuit was still present through the main contactor holding contact which pulled both it and the delta contactor back in.

The star-delta starter is the group of contactors at bottom right of the panel. Ignore the arrow, that's the transductor.

Control cabinet.jpg

Opening the contactor revealed a broken part of the moving contact carriage. The mystery is how long it has been broken. It's a strong phenolic moulding that was showing wear on the cracked surfaces. I suspect it was damaged when the panel was moved 14 years ago, and the parts have been rubbing together since, but just yesterday the broken bit moved into a different position and jammed the contactor. These are the original German-made Klöckner-Moeller DIL3 contactors, from the days before they were DIN-rail mounted. Vertical operation, gravity return, exposed auxiliary contacts. I had to decide between replacing or repairing the contactor. For reasons explained below, replacing it would be a little complicated, so I chose the repair option. I have some very high performance epoxy resin handy so I carefully glued the parts together and they have held very strongly. The contactor is back together and now starts and stops the machine as intended.

I took the complete starter sub-assembly out of the panel to repair:

20220203_131405.jpg 20220203_134232.jpg20220203_152707.jpg20220203_154900.jpg20220204_121637.jpg

One interesting feature of the starter is the thermal star-delta changeover timer, which uses an expanding hot-wire element instead of an element coiled around a bimetal strip. This keeps the thermal mass low so that it cools and resets very quickly. Once an auxiliary contact on the delta opens, it resets ready for another start in one or two seconds. The wire is short and thick and requires only a very low voltage to heat it because its resistance is only around 170 milliohms. The control system of the machine is 36V AC, so the hot-wire is energised not from the 36V but from a secondary winding on the line contactor. Over the ordinary 36V winding you can see the secondary of 16 turns which develops about half a volt at 3A, fed via the delta aux into the hot wire of the timer. To avoid having to alter this and replace the timer, had I chosen the replacement route I would have replaced another contactor with a modern one, and used the liberated contact assembly to replace this one and retained the original line contactor.

Star-delta timer: The hot wire is strung vertically below the spring. which keeps it under tension As it expands the spring shortens, pulling up the projection on the grey lever. The bottom end of the lever moves to the left pulling the paxolin lost-motion link with it, and once the lost motion is absorbed, the tail end of brass contact arm which opens the contact and releases the star contactor, allowing the delta to close. Time is set by adjusting the eccentric pivot of the contact arm, which varies the amount of expansion needed to take up the lost motion. Pic of coil shows secondary winding (visible turns) over primary (under wrap.)

20220203_155532.jpg20220203_155629.jpg

One day (!) I will do a walk-through video of how this machine works. There can't be many still in use that have not been updated to VFD, or at least electronic VVDC.
 
Last edited:
We have this Swiss-made Dixi horizontal borer from 1957, very nice machine still with its original DC variable voltage drive. In those days there were no VFDs, variable speed machine drives all used DC motors or Schrage AC motors, with the best DC units capable of better performance than VFDs at low speeds; this one goes all the way down to 70 rpm at 100% torque. In 1957 there were really two options for producing the variable voltage to feed the machine spindle motor itself: A motor generator set that runs at constant speed with variable excitation on the generator (the Ward-Leonard system) or a thyratron (gas-filled valve) controlled rectifier bridge. Our borer has a Ward-Leonard drive, with a 2900 rpm converter set sitting next to it with a 3-phase motor, DC generator, exciter generator and a cross-field servo-amplifier machine all on one shaft. This is in turn under the control of a magnetic transductor amplifier which gives closed-loop speed control.

View attachment 94712 View attachment 94714 View attachment 94716

All of this has been working pretty reliably for 65 years but yesterday it wouldn't stop working when told to. The spindle motor would stop and start but when the machinist went to stop the converter set, as soon as he took his finger off the button it fired back up. The E-stop button isn't supposed to stop the converter: it stops the spindle and the hydraulic pump, but leaves the converter running because that is needed to dynamically brake the spindle. It only stopped when he turned off the isolator.

View attachment 94713

The 3-phase motor of the Ward-Leonard converter has a star-delta starter within the panel which is more or less conventional, just with a few interconnections to tie it into the machine controls, e.g. an auxiliary proving contact on the delta contactor enables the DC spindle controls once up to speed, and the converter overload relay trips the spindle drive first, which then trips the converter off. I expected there would be a short somewhere in the control interlocking but the reason was simple and obvious once the panel was opened: the line contactor was jamming closed mechanically. With a finger on the converter stop button the holding circuit was broken, releasing the delta contactor and de-energising the motor. But when the button was released the circuit was still present through the main contactor holding contact which pulled both it and the delta contactor back in.

The star-delta starter is the group of contactors at bottom right of the panel. Ignore the arrow, that's the transductor.

View attachment 94715

Opening the contactor revealed a broken part of the moving contact carriage. The mystery is how long it has been broken. It's a strong phenolic moulding that was showing wear on the cracked surfaces. I suspect it was damaged when the panel was moved 14 years ago, and the parts have been rubbing together since, but just yesterday the broken bit moved into a different position and jammed the contactor. These are the original German-made Klöckner-Moeller DIL3 contactors, from the days before they were DIN-rail mounted. Vertical operation, gravity return, exposed auxiliary contacts. I had to decide between replacing or repairing the contactor. For reasons explained below, replacing it would be a little complicated, so I chose the repair option. I have some very high performance epoxy resin handy so I carefully glued the parts together and they have held very strongly. The contactor is back together and now starts and stops the machine as intended.

I took the complete starter sub-assembly out of the panel to repair:

View attachment 94725 View attachment 94726View attachment 94727View attachment 94728View attachment 94732

One interesting feature of the starter is the thermal star-delta changeover timer, which uses an expanding hot-wire element instead of an element coiled around a bimetal strip. This keeps the thermal mass low so that it cools and resets very quickly. Once an auxiliary contact on the delta opens, it resets ready for another start in one or two seconds. The wire is short and thick and requires only a very low voltage to heat it because its resistance is only around 170 milliohms. The control system of the machine is 36V AC, so the hot-wire is energised not from the 36V but from a secondary winding on the line contactor. Over the ordinary 36V winding you can see the secondary of 16 turns which develops about half a volt at 3A, fed via the delta aux into the hot wire of the timer. To avoid having to alter this and replace the timer, had I chosen the replacement route I would have replaced another contactor with a modern one, and used the liberated contact assembly to replace this one and retained the original line contactor.

Star-delta timer: The hot wire is strung vertically below the spring. which keeps it under tension As it expands the spring shortens, pulling up the projection on the grey lever. The bottom end of the lever moves to the left pulling the paxolin lost-motion link with it, and once the lost motion is absorbed, the tail end of brass contact arm which opens the contact and releases the star contactor, allowing the delta to close. Time is set by adjusting the eccentric pivot of the contact arm, which varies the amount of expansion needed to take up the lost motion. Pic of coil shows secondary winding (visible turns) over primary (under wrap.)

View attachment 94729View attachment 94730

One day (!) I will do a walk-through video of how this machine works. There can't be many still in use that have not been updated to VFD, or at least electronic VVDC.

The only reply I can make to that is that i have a ÂŁ3000+ thyratron tube in my garage which I aim to mount on an oak plinth with LEDs to illuminate it.

Seems a bit of a waste of time after your post Lucien. Especially since the tube is dead.
 
Last edited:
Try putting a 5kW M-G set on your mantelpiece and the advantages of the thyratron will become clear.
 
The only reply I can make to that is that i have a ÂŁ3000+ thyratron tube in my garage which I aim to mount on an oak plinth with LEDs to illuminate it.
I rescued a few bits from our old lab when it was being closed. Includes one of these:
A TWT and a Ferranti diode valve with guard electrodes used for teaching characteristics many years ago:
 
Nice. Those CV 2163 valves must have been made in high quantities, I also have one here. It lives on my kitchen window sill amongst other old electrical junk.
 
Nice. Those CV 2163 valves must have been made in high quantities, I also have one here. It lives on my kitchen window sill amongst other old electrical junk.
Mine is marked as ACT28

I was told it was a working-but-replaced one from a pair used in a UHF radar at Edinburgh airport many years ago.
 
We have this Swiss-made Dixi horizontal borer from 1957, very nice machine still with its original DC variable voltage drive. In those days there were no VFDs, variable speed machine drives all used DC motors or Schrage AC motors, with the best DC units capable of better performance than VFDs at low speeds; this one goes all the way down to 70 rpm at 100% torque. In 1957 there were really two options for producing the variable voltage to feed the machine spindle motor itself: A motor generator set that runs at constant speed with variable excitation on the generator (the Ward-Leonard system) or a thyratron (gas-filled valve) controlled rectifier bridge. Our borer has a Ward-Leonard drive, with a 2900 rpm converter set sitting next to it with a 3-phase motor, DC generator, exciter generator and a cross-field servo-amplifier machine all on one shaft. This is in turn under the control of a magnetic transductor amplifier which gives closed-loop speed control.

View attachment 94712 View attachment 94714 View attachment 94716

All of this has been working pretty reliably for 65 years but yesterday it wouldn't stop working when told to. The spindle motor would stop and start but when the machinist went to stop the converter set, as soon as he took his finger off the button it fired back up. The E-stop button isn't supposed to stop the converter: it stops the spindle and the hydraulic pump, but leaves the converter running because that is needed to dynamically brake the spindle. It only stopped when he turned off the isolator.

View attachment 94713

The 3-phase motor of the Ward-Leonard converter has a star-delta starter within the panel which is more or less conventional, just with a few interconnections to tie it into the machine controls, e.g. an auxiliary proving contact on the delta contactor enables the DC spindle controls once up to speed, and the converter overload relay trips the spindle drive first, which then trips the converter off. I expected there would be a short somewhere in the control interlocking but the reason was simple and obvious once the panel was opened: the line contactor was jamming closed mechanically. With a finger on the converter stop button the holding circuit was broken, releasing the delta contactor and de-energising the motor. But when the button was released the circuit was still present through the main contactor holding contact which pulled both it and the delta contactor back in.

The star-delta starter is the group of contactors at bottom right of the panel. Ignore the arrow, that's the transductor.

View attachment 94715

Opening the contactor revealed a broken part of the moving contact carriage. The mystery is how long it has been broken. It's a strong phenolic moulding that was showing wear on the cracked surfaces. I suspect it was damaged when the panel was moved 14 years ago, and the parts have been rubbing together since, but just yesterday the broken bit moved into a different position and jammed the contactor. These are the original German-made Klöckner-Moeller DIL3 contactors, from the days before they were DIN-rail mounted. Vertical operation, gravity return, exposed auxiliary contacts. I had to decide between replacing or repairing the contactor. For reasons explained below, replacing it would be a little complicated, so I chose the repair option. I have some very high performance epoxy resin handy so I carefully glued the parts together and they have held very strongly. The contactor is back together and now starts and stops the machine as intended.

I took the complete starter sub-assembly out of the panel to repair:

View attachment 94725 View attachment 94726View attachment 94727View attachment 94728View attachment 94732

One interesting feature of the starter is the thermal star-delta changeover timer, which uses an expanding hot-wire element instead of an element coiled around a bimetal strip. This keeps the thermal mass low so that it cools and resets very quickly. Once an auxiliary contact on the delta opens, it resets ready for another start in one or two seconds. The wire is short and thick and requires only a very low voltage to heat it because its resistance is only around 170 milliohms. The control system of the machine is 36V AC, so the hot-wire is energised not from the 36V but from a secondary winding on the line contactor. Over the ordinary 36V winding you can see the secondary of 16 turns which develops about half a volt at 3A, fed via the delta aux into the hot wire of the timer. To avoid having to alter this and replace the timer, had I chosen the replacement route I would have replaced another contactor with a modern one, and used the liberated contact assembly to replace this one and retained the original line contactor.

Star-delta timer: The hot wire is strung vertically below the spring. which keeps it under tension As it expands the spring shortens, pulling up the projection on the grey lever. The bottom end of the lever moves to the left pulling the paxolin lost-motion link with it, and once the lost motion is absorbed, the tail end of brass contact arm which opens the contact and releases the star contactor, allowing the delta to close. Time is set by adjusting the eccentric pivot of the contact arm, which varies the amount of expansion needed to take up the lost motion. Pic of coil shows secondary winding (visible turns) over primary (under wrap.)

View attachment 94729View attachment 94730

One day (!) I will do a walk-through video of how this machine works. There can't be many still in use that have not been updated to VFD, or at least electronic VVDC.
@lucien you always amaze me with the way your brain and don’t quit attitude works. You must have an IQ of 160. I am really pulling for you to get your museum open and looking forward to the walk through that you mentioned. I truly have learned a lot by reading your post. Thank you my friend.
 
Thanks - this kind of stuff is my speciality. I've been enjoying electricial science since I was just a few years old and like a circus performer or musician if you start early it gets hard-wired into your brain. So I have a particular 'feel' for certain things like electrodynamic machines (motors, generators, converters) that have 'personalities' that you can get really deep into.

I find something very impressive about VVDC (Ward Leonard) drives, seeing a machine running very slowly or even stopped, with the armatures still solidly connected connected together, knowing how low the impedance is and therefore how high the torque can be. It's like a muscle car with a 'zero gear', not neutral but infinite reduction so that the entire power of the engine is still harnessed to the wheels but it doesn't move along the road. This is true of this Dixi borer; when you stop the spindle it puts the converter set into 'suicide connection' which provides active dynamic braking i.e. it forcibly drives the motor at 0 rpm. Any attempt to turn the spindle generates a voltage which unleashes the full power of the generator to cancel it out and restore the speed to zero.

The cool thing is that long experience and familiarity with the hardware means that I 'feel' the power of this setup when I look at the schematic, as well as when I handle the machines themselves. Just a sketch of two sep-ex compound machines with their brushes connected gives me a sense of awesome strength!
 
And here is the said schematic. This is the speed control section, showing the converter, drive motor, magnetic amplifier and related components. Only the DC circiits are shown, not the general 36V AC control system, so it doesn't include the starter that was faulty etc.

Like this post if you want me to do a video. It won't be immediate because I have treatment tomorrow and won't be coming in to the shop for a few days.

16444190217412245269311172732715.jpg
 
Last edited:

Reply to Stop the machine! I want to get off. in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Similar Threads

Hi Guys, We have a CNC router which uses single phase for the spindle, stepper motors and control box. This is all wired in and working...
Replies
10
Views
1K
Hi, First of all I must explain why my posting came to be on this site, I was looking on the internet for a forum that could help with a project...
Replies
8
Views
1K
We are in the process of restoring 4 of a group of 5 Brookhirst DC motor starters from 1936. These are a thing of beauty and the engineering in...
Replies
1
Views
1K
Hello, I am hoping this is in the correct forum. To start, I acquired a film processing machine that runs on 3 phase. Now before getting the...
Replies
19
Views
3K
Hi there, I got a call to a job, table saw (wood) tripping C/B straight away. 4kW motor on Star Delta Starter. So I get to the job, after some...
Replies
2
Views
3K

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

Electrical Forum

Welcome to the Electrical Forum at ElectriciansForums.net. The friendliest electrical forum online. General electrical questions and answers can be found in the electrical forum.
This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by Untold Media. Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
Back
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website. For the best site experience please disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock